The works of the law of righteousness vs works by faith to justification

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jul 5, 2013

not at all... it still went over your head though...

homwardbound · Jul 5, 2013

You misunderstand the fact that there is no more forgiveness from God to ever be executed again after Christ's death that took all sin away from God. This is a one time reception
Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
So you go right on ahead and continue to deny that God took all sin away by and through his Son Christ
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

So tell me how many sins have been forgiven back at the cross all are just a few?

You can either see truth for what truth is or follow man's interpretation and twisting of truth if you wish, we all have free choice and I thank God for this. All in Love to you by God and from God who has brought the message of reconciliation, and wishes for all to come to terms and be reconciled to God as God is reconciled to us all. So we can move onto the new life here and now in the Spirit of God through the resurrection of Christ, by the operation of God
Love you deeper than you seem to know

Hoffco · Jul 5, 2013

this is my , Hoffco's, reply to Eternally Grateful: The Bible never says"faith ALONE" or " saved (justified)"
James 2:24 "You see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith only."
2Thes. 2:13 "...for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth."
Rom.8:29-30 1.foreknew 2. predestined 3. called 4. justified 5. glorified
The order of salvation is Sanctification first, justification second
Please study all the scriptures I gave to prove the teaching,I gave, of the Bible.
Love in Christ, Hoffco

eternally-gratefull · Jul 5, 2013

Hoffco said:

Yes the bible does say faith alone. It does not have to say alone to mean it.

1. Faith minus works = faith alone
2. Not by works of righteousness (works) we have done, but by his mercy, he saved (justified us)
3. Justified freely by faith

James agrees 100 % by what the rest of scripture says.

If a man says he has faith. But has ZERO works. His faith is dead (no faith at all.

A person can not be saved, unless he has faith. now can he

true faith WILL produce true works. False faith (mere belief) will propduce only human good (no works) and is not salvic.

If you want to try to earn salvation by your works. You will fail. The penalty of sin is death, Not doing good works. Only DEATH can cause forgiveness. Don't listen to the legalists. Who want you to work to earn a gift.

Again, As paul said, it is grace or works. Not both. one cancels out the other.

Hoffco · Jul 5, 2013

Hoffco's reply to Homwardbound, You are missing a key to the work of Christ on the cross. Jesus death on the cross is the propitiation, covering for our sin against the wrath of God, but on the cross Jesus did not save me or you. Jesus saved me in 1961, not on the cross. The cross is salvation's provision for "all", but Jesus 's work today is ,salvation applied, only for the "many". Rom.5:19 by Christ's "obedience many will be made righteous." "will" is future, "made" is the action of the power of God in giving us the new birth, thus making us inwardly righteous, restored in the image of God. the "many" are the elect of God. Jesus first told Nicodemus, he had to be born of God, then second, he had to be forgiven by Jesus blood, of course the blood was not yet shead. Please study all the verses I gave in my first reply. Be blessed of God. Hoffco

Hoffco · Jul 5, 2013

Hoffco to Eternally Grateful,
1. Faith minus works is dead.
2. faith works by love
3. Grace produces faith and works
Rom. 6:22-23 "But now having been set free from sin and having become slaves of God. you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
The "gift of God" is in the context of ch.s 1-6 is: The new birth of God,"called to be saints" and forgiven "justified" by grace, faith and works. Hoffco

just-me · Jul 5, 2013

Originally Posted by just-me

Does this mean that the joke is on me?

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

So enlighten me as a brother in Christ ought to please.

DiscipleDave · Jul 5, 2013

know1 said:

A woman whose purse is on the table dropped a hundred dollar bill on the ground, which she did not notice.
One man walks by and sees the money and is tempted to take it, but thinks to himself, that would be sinful, for it is written thou shalt not steal
Another man walks by and sees the money and is tempted to take it, but thinks to himself, that if he were to do that, that God would punish him for his wicked deed.
Another woman walks by and sees the money and is tempted to take it, she would not even notice, but thinks to herself, i am not a thief, even though i could really use the money probably more then she needs it, by the look at what she is wearing, i don't want to be looked as a thief.
Another man walks by and sees the money and is tempted to take it, but immediately thinks about the woman who lost the money, and how it might effect her by losing the hundred dollars.
Tell me, which person loved the woman who lost the money? None of them took the money, for whatever reasons, none of them committed sin. The first three were operating under the law of works, and not the law of faith.

If a person does not steal because it is written Thou shalt not Steal, is under the works of the law.
If a person does not steal because they love that person, that one is under the law of Faith. They do not steal because it is written Do not Steal, they do not steal because they LOVE.

^i^

eternally-gratefull · Jul 5, 2013

Hoffco said:

Minus works. Does this not mean zero works? Why would you want to show that zero works proves we need work to save, or will cause us to lose salvation?
Faith is dead, Again I must ask you. How can a dead faith save anyone if we are saved by faith?? That person would never be saved would he?

James is showing us mere belief is not enough to save us, We need true faith. Since true faith PRODUCES good works..Lack of works shows there was no true faith.

Faith works BY LOVE. Stop focusing on the work part. It is our love based on our faith which causes us to work.

This is wrong. Grace gives the ability to have faith. Not everyone will accept it. Faith produces works. No faith. no works. It is as plain as this. No faith no salvation. Works do not come into the equation. If they do, we are under law. Not Grace

lol. Gift. Given freely. Not earned. This a gift is not given because of works. It is given because (in our case) of Gods mercy.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jul 5, 2013

just-me said:

Go back and read zone's post. From what you know about her prior posts, do you not detect a little facetiousness?

just-me · Jul 5, 2013

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

I agreed with that knowing that semantics can be misunderstood sometimes. I agree with what she wrote as a whole, even though I might word it differently. For some time now, I thought she and I were at odds with one another, but it is my requirement to be understanding, and loving according to God's mercy and long suffering. If that's over my head, so be it. I do what I do, and am what I am through the Word of God. I thought that you were going to edify me according to the scriptures. God bless you brother. God doesn't like His children to disagree.

1 Corinthians 15:10 (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
Matthew 18:19-20 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Skinski7 · Jul 5, 2013

homwardbound said:

Only God can reveal to you and or anyone else as they grow in God's amazing gift.
Jesus was born of the virgin Mary, that is how he was in sinless flesh and is why none other can be perfect in and by their flesh before or after the Cross Here you are alluding to the teaching that "sin" is somehow passed down in the male seed. This teaching is known as "seminal identity." Here is what Isaiah says about the virgin birth...

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

The Bible says NOTHING of the virgin birth being the means to avoid the transmission of original sin. That teaching came out of the Catholic Church. The Bible specifically states that the virgin birth was a sign.

I say this because all sin by Christ at the cross has been condemned to the flesh
Romans 8:3

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]3 [/SUP]For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

And by this Christ is able to present all the believers as :

Colossians 1:19-24

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]19 [/SUP]For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
[SUP]22 [/SUP]In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

You snip Rom 8:3 from its context and use it as a proof text for the "trust in the provision" you are teaching. In other words you are using Rom 8:3 to support this earlier statement of yours...

You are clearly teaching that we DO NOTHING except TRUST. Then when we TRUST everything will just happen. Thus you are saying you did not have to "stop any sin consciously" but "trust" that you were POSITIONALLY RIGHTEOUS and ALREADY FORGIVEN and then "later on" the sin stops.

Your doctrine clearly has forgiveness being granted BEFORE the rebellion to God has been forsaken. In other words you have the Prodigal Son IN THE PIG PEN "trusting" that he is ALREADY forgiven whilst he is still in rebellion.

You are using the cross as a CLOAK for an ongoing defiled state.

What does Rom 8:3 actually teach? Well first of all don't ISOLATE IT from its context.

Romans 8:1-4 follows right on the heals of the example of the wretch who is carnal and sold under sin and is crying out for deliverance. After giving the example of this wretched man whom is under the law Paul writes...

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. There is no condemnation to who? Those who are IN Christ Jesus, that is who.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. "For" connects this next verse to the previous verse. Being IN Christ Jesus means one is ABIDING in the law of the Spirit of life "IN" Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: Another "For" is used which means Paul is elaborating on the previous verse. God sent Jesus IN THE FLESH whereby Jesus "condemned sin" IN THE FLESH because Jesus was tempted just like we are yet did not yield. Thus Jesus BEAT sin. Jesus CONDEMNED sin. Jesus showed us that sin CAN BE RULED OVER.
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Here Paul writes the reason WHY this happened. So that the "righteousness of the law" be fulfilled IN US who WALK after the Spirit. What Spirit? The Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ.

You cannot snip Romans 8:3 and use it as a proof text for some positional transaction having taken place which you simply trust in. That is butchering the words of Paul. That is twisting his words. Don't do that.

There is no such thing as positional salvation wrought via trusting in a provision. That is a delusion with the purpose of giving comfort to people who remain in the service of sin. It is a teaching which neutralises and redefines genuine repentance.

Let's look at Colossians now.

Col 1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
Col 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; There is a walk associated with being raised up with Christ.
Col 1:11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: We have to be made worthy in order to partake of eternal life.
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: HAS delivered us from the power of darkness. Not a POSITIONAL CLOAK for ongoing wickedness but a LITERAL deliverance. Read 2Pet 1:3-4 where it says that believers have "escaped the corruption that is in the world THROUGH LUST." The service of sin ceases. It is a present reality for those who have been born again not some abstract hope.
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Redemption is through the blood because it is via the blood we enter into the Holy of Holies boldly seeking reconciliation with a TRUE HEART (Heb 10: 17-22). Jesus BOUGHT us with His blood. Thus when we abide in Him God passes over our previous rebellion at the bequest of His Son.

There blood is not a cloak for ongoing rebellion. Cannot you see that you are teaching that the death of Christ, His blood is a CLOAK for ongoing wickedness? That is what you are teaching. You claim that one can be still engaged in wickedness but as long as they "trust in the provision" then they are forgiven. Then at some stage down the track due to this "trust" the sin will stop. What you are saying is a complete denial of the Bible.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Jesus is God.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; Life is found in Jesus Christ. He is the light that lights all men.
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. Jesus made peace with God via His blood. We were held in captivity under the dominion of sin whereby we served sin. Jesus was made flesh, He was made a kinsman of ours whereby he bought us back with His blood and by abiding in Him the transaction is fulfilled in us where we are truly bought and paid for thus becoming part of His body. There is no "serving sin" in such a state for that means one has not partaken in rescue Jesus offers. You don't serve two masters. You teach that Christian's DO serve two masters at least for awhile. You teach a forgiveness being granted whilst one is still serving Satan.
Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled What is it that alienates people from God? Wickedness! We are reconciled via repentance and faith whereby we can approach God via the blood with a TRUE HEART thus being made washed with pure water.

Look at this passage...

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

One CANNOT be walking according to the flesh and be reconciled to God at the same time. It is impossible.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Go read Rom 8:2-4 again. It is the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ which sets us free from the law of sin and death. Go read Rom 6:17 where it says that it is due to "obedience from the heart" that we are set free from the service of sin and thus become "servants of righteousness." This is why the "gift of God is eternal life THROUGH Jesus Christ."

It is not an abstract provision you trust in. We are to ABIDE IN the literal POWER OF GOD.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. We shall life how? IF we mortify the deeds of the flesh by the Spirit. Go read 1Pet 1:21 for it says that babes in Christ are made pure by obedience to the truth through the Spirit.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: Read Rom 6:4-7 where it says that WE DIE WITH HIM. In 1Pet 4:1 it says, "he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin." That is HOW we are presented holy and unblameable and unreprovable in His sight. It has NOTHING to do with "trusting in a provision." This "passive trust" or "faith alone" nonsense completely destroys the saving dynamic of the Gospel.
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; "If ye continue" is a CONDITION. Not continue in a "passive trust" in a "provision." No! Paul means CONTINUE ABIDING. He means KEEP WALKING ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT.
Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Christ IN us. We abide IN Christ. Not in position, in REALITY. The righteousness of God is MANIFEST in us who walk according to the Spirit.
Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Col 1:29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Homwardbound,

I know you are passionate in what you write but please consider your doctrine in light of what the Bible actually teaches.

I have seen you post previously that you believe that "sins are already forgiven BEFORE you even commit them." That clearly illustrates that you view salvation as purely POSTIONAL and thus disconnect salvation from heart purity. Those are dangerous things to believe and the the Spirit of God is not behind such teachings.

God bless.

Hoffco · Jul 5, 2013

Hoffco to eternally gratefull, You said, "not everyone will accept it" and "faith produces work"
Both statements are half true.shallow and misleading. thus a dangerous lie. Because they are based on a false teaching of free will. Free will is both true and false, based on your explanation. Truth must be based on all the sides presented. truth is always in tension. they are always two sides or more. Jh. 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent me draws him:..." draw is a word of force, power, not persuasion. Man is dead and can not respond to God's love. Eph.2:2
So many christians fight the Sovereignty of God and thus they can not understand the Bible. The balancing truth is , the responsibility of man. Both are taught in the bible, but they must be defined biblically.
nap time, be blessed, Hoffco ps. another sunny day in the Philippines, love it.

just-me · Jul 6, 2013

I know that many will not accept what I'm going to say. Being born again and salvation are closely connected, but I take them as not identically the same. To me, being born again is the beginning of a life of salvation. Salvation of the journey, or way of life to me. Being born again is the start of that way of life.
Psalm 68:19 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation. Selah.
Psalm 86:3 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Be merciful unto me, O Lord: for I cry unto thee daily.
Isaiah 58:2 (KJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Yet they seek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God: they ask of me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching to God.
Matthew 6:11 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Give us this day our daily bread.

zone · Jul 6, 2013

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

כל כך שמח שלא להשתמש בשם המפורש

zone · Jul 6, 2013

just-me said:

....no....unless you think righteousness comes by the Law - even for those saved by grace.

homwardbound · Jul 6, 2013

Hoffco said:

I have studied and it is God that does the setting free, not the bible, the Bible a great tool, yet to know what God did God does the reveling and setting the one or ones free

I personally do not need to explain any of this to you, If you knew you'd agree, so to me you are not free, nor understand first born of the flesh, then forgiveness, then born of the Spirit of God, is provided after the cross for all here today, no one here is over 2,000 years old, and the forgiveness for all is at the cross and no one receives life until God shows them as a free gift and this is done by God at the resurrection of Christ, proof of what Christ said he came to give to us life in the Spirit of God, just most are out too busy with the energy of their own flesh pleasing others and think they are pleasing God, when God is pleased by no flesh except one, his Son Jesus, who took away the sin issue by his death for us to agree that it is our death and then he came to life for our life, born again in the Spirit of God
To each their own, free will in effect

zone · Jul 6, 2013

justified 3 times?
or 3 parts to justification?
exactly when are we aquitted (justified, not guilty, set free) and counted (declared, made) perfectly righteous (justified)?

AFTER we summon up grace faith and works? - yes, according to Skinski.

what does inspired Paul say on the matter?

Romans 3
Righteousness Through Faith
21But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,i through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

your claim below (proof-texted by a ton of inaccurate addresses is completely the opposite of what Paul said):

"Justification is thirdly by works.

Jh 3:21 ; 5:28-29 ;12:24-26 Mt.7:14-27 ; 12:33-37 ; Mt. 1-46 Rom.2:4-13 ; 5:21 ; 6:14-23 ; 8:4-14 Lk.24:47 Acts 2:38 ; 11:18 ; 26:20 2Tim.2:25 James 2:22-24."

you and skinski need to define:

justification
works

oh....

"we are chosen in Christ
and born again by sovereign acts of God's love and power
Then we can and will, repent, trust, and obey Jesus for salvation."

so....you were chosen; born again; then repented; trusted; obeyed...and THEN were saved?

can anyone be saved before they born again?
what happens if you fail at any time to repent, trust, and obey? are you un-born again?
do you have to maintain your salvation?

zone · Jul 6, 2013

just-me said:

in what ways are we at odds?
doctrine?

could you elaborate?
because even after looking at your site i'm still unclear on your doctrine.
thank you

zone · Jul 6, 2013

Skinski7 said:

Homwardbound,

I know you are passionate in what you write but please consider your doctrine in light of what the Bible actually teaches.

I have seen you post previously that you believe that "sins are already forgiven BEFORE you even commit them." That clearly illustrates that you view salvation as purely POSTIONAL and thus disconnect salvation from heart purity. Those are dangerous things to believe and the the Spirit of God is not behind such teachings.

God bless.

how are sins committed after salvation forgiven Scott?
just briefly please.

The works of the law of righteousness vs works by faith to justification

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