Do you believe there is going to be a pre-tribulation rapture?

[watchmen]

Should check out Walter Veith's stuff on this, pretty amazing. i personally dont believe that there is an plausible argument for pre trib in the word.

You are right there is not.

 

[Lifelike]

I'm not sure what Ryan1976 is talking about, but it seems he is one of those who think because a man called the resurrection at the second coming "rapture" that it isn't scriptural. But it is. Just because Rapture isn't in the bible doesn't mean someone cannot name an event. Bible isn't in the bible either.

To answer the question; Is there going to be a pre-trib Rapture? The answer is NO. In fact there is no Seven year tribulation either. The tribulation started when Jesus left and it will end when he comes back. The second Tribulation takes place after the millennium and is never taught.

However, by all reason, the Tribulation will be at ease when Jesus returns and then take up again after the millennium.

I won't repeat what has been said here, but like it has been said, Jesus is seen coming back before he calls for the Rapture.

The Rapture is the resurrection of the chosen ones. There have been two already, one is Jesus who was raised from the dead in his tomb. The other was "and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many." Mat 27:52-53

There will be three resurrections when Jesus comes back. "And the dead in Christ will rise first." I Th 4:16
Then sometime after that, we don't know how long, "Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." I Th 4:17

If you count them so far you have four resurrections, there are three more to come. The third will happen after the mark of the beast period, after Jesus has returned to earth itself. This resurrection is named but not by a resurrection name. "Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." Rev 20:4

In order for these to live the must be resurrected, thus this is the fifth resurrection. To live during the millennium you must be resurrected back into a human body like you have now. Some religions do not teach this but rather teach that we will be spiritual when in fact we will not.

The sixth resurrection comes after the millennium; "But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. " Rev 20:5

What happens then is the release of Satan, there he will go out and gather up the rulers and nations once again to lead them astray like he does now. This time period is unknown but as best as I can calculate it will be close to 2000-2500 years long.

Then comes the final battle of Gog and Magog that is deceptively being taught as happening before Jesus returns now, when in fact it happens after the millennium.

After that comes the seventh and final resurrection; "The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them." Rev 20:13

This is why Jesus said to "pray that your flight be not in the winter or on the Sabbath." As you can see, there are seven resurrections, or Raptures.

We are under a seven thousand year prophecy from the time of Daniel until the restoration of the kingdom of God is complete. Then there wil be an eighth day and then a new heaven and a new earth.

As for the seven year tribulation, it is mislead from the book of Daniel. Half of the seventieth week is already over, there is 42 months left which will finish it after the return of Jesus where we are in the clouds and not on earth. "And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months." Rev 13:5 The key word here is to "continue."

Does this help?

interesting article, some good stuff in it but i dont think its enirely correct. i think the people from the 5th ressurection you were taling about are actually part of your 3rd and 4th ressurection, and not really in agreeance with your time lines. but interesting non the less and some good stuff, i like that u have a more comprehensive and developed doctrine of ressurections than most. cheers.

 

[Lifelike]

I spent some time studying this, and came to the uncomfortable conclusion that really, both sides are pretty well thought out, and both sides have plenty of scriptures that seem to support their side.

Ultimately, I decided since it's not a salvational issue, I'd just approach it like everything in life-

Hope for the best, and plan for the worst.

haha, nicely said.

 

[shad]

Dispensationalism is a horrible, unbiblical theory.

What G-d wants from us is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He doesn't change His mind, He is not a racist, having different standards for different nations, or any of this other garbage.

For starters, if dispensationalism is a horrible and unbiblical theory, would you please explain the following verses and what their meaning is in relationship to dispensations or the lack thereof.

1Cor 19:7
Eph 1:10
Eph 3:2
Col 1:25-27
Luke 21:24
Acts 3:19-26
Acts 17:29-31

For those that want to understand the difference between law and grace, explain why under Moses the people were under the law but now we are under grace and not the law.

Jn 1:17
Rom 6:14
Gal 3:10-25
Gal 4:4,5
Gal 5:18

Also explain why David, who had committed adultery with Bathsheba was not judged according to the law and stoned to death when others were stoned for the same act? Why was David given mercy to live? If your Jewish brother who commits adultery today, is he stoned according to the law under two or three witnesses because of adultery or is he handled differently? If G_d is immutable and is the same yesterday, today and forever, should not your brother be stoned, even if that would mean taking him back to Israel and do it there under the laws of Israel?

 

[watchmen]

For starters, if dispensationalism is a horrible and unbiblical theory, would you please explain the following verses and what their meaning is in relationship to dispensations or the lack thereof.

1Cor 19:7
Eph 1:10
Eph 3:2
Col 1:25-27
Luke 21:24
Acts 3:19-26
Acts 17:29-31

For those that want to understand the difference between law and grace, explain why under Moses the people were under the law but now we are under grace and not the law.

Jn 1:17
Rom 6:14
Gal 3:10-25
Gal 4:4,5
Gal 5:18

Also explain why David, who had committed adultery with Bathsheba was not judged according to the law and stoned to death when others were stoned for the same act? Why was David given mercy to live? If your Jewish brother who commits adultery today, is he stoned according to the law under two or three witnesses because of adultery or is he handled differently? If G_d is immutable and is the same yesterday, today and forever, should not your brother be stoned, even if that would mean taking him back to Israel and do it there under the laws of Israel?

This thread is about whether or not you believe in the oretrib rapture or not. What exactly did you think it was about?

 

[shad]

This thread is about whether or not you believe in the oretrib rapture or not. What exactly did you think it was about?

I was simply responding to Mobius concerning dispensationalism. I hope that you will give me grace to do so. But if you won't give me grace there are other threads and believers that love God and are called according to grace.

 

[watchmen]

I was simply responding to Mobius concerning dispensationalism. I hope that you will give me grace to do so. But if you won't give me grace there are other threads and believers that love God and are called according to grace.

You can do a you choose, I just didn't know if you realize what the op was about by your post.

 

[AnRev]

Lifelike The reason that the fifth resurrection is not in with the 3rd and 4th is because the dead rise first, then those who are alive are caught up to meet with them in the clouds.

When that happens the mark of the beast period comes. Christians, or chosen ones, are not suppose to go through that period. That means that the remnant of believers will because they have not made up their minds or for what ever other reason they are left behind to deny the mark of the beast. This is a special group of people in a class of themselves.

Also, they will not be alive and remain so that takes them out of the fourth because they will be getting beheaded, they will also not be dead yet because the 3rd and 4th rapture will have already happened when the mark comes into play. That means that when they are resurrected they will not be going up to the clouds because Jesus will have come down by then. That is how I placed them fifth.

 

[watchmen]

Lifelike The reason that the fifth resurrection is not in with the 3rd and 4th is because the dead rise first, then those who are alive are caught up to meet with them in the clouds.

When that happens the mark of the beast period comes. Christians, or chosen ones, are not suppose to go through that period. That means that the remnant of believers will because they have not made up their minds or for what ever other reason they are left behind to deny the mark of the beast. This is a special group of people in a class of themselves.

Also, they will not be alive and remain so that takes them out of the fourth because they will be getting beheaded, they will also not be dead yet because the 3rd and 4th rapture will have already happened when the mark comes into play. That means that when they are resurrected they will not be going up to the clouds because Jesus will have come down by then. That is how I placed them fifth.

You been watching too much christian television. Benny Hinn and the likes.....lol

 

[Ryan1976]

I'm not sure what Ryan1976 is talking about, but it seems he is one of those who think because a man called the resurrection at the second coming "rapture" that it isn't scriptural. But it is. Just because Rapture isn't in the bible doesn't mean someone cannot name an event. Bible isn't in the bible either.

To answer the question; Is there going to be a pre-trib Rapture? The answer is NO. In fact there is no Seven year tribulation either. The tribulation started when Jesus left and it will end when he comes back. The second Tribulation takes place after the millennium and is never taught.

However, by all reason, the Tribulation will be at ease when Jesus returns and then take up again after the millennium.

I won't repeat what has been said here, but like it has been said, Jesus is seen coming back before he calls for the Rapture.

The Rapture is the resurrection of the chosen ones. There have been two already, one is Jesus who was raised from the dead in his tomb. The other was "and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many." Mat 27:52-53

There will be three resurrections when Jesus comes back. "And the dead in Christ will rise first." I Th 4:16
Then sometime after that, we don't know how long, "Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." I Th 4:17

If you count them so far you have four resurrections, there are three more to come. The third will happen after the mark of the beast period, after Jesus has returned to earth itself. This resurrection is named but not by a resurrection name. "Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." Rev 20:4

In order for these to live the must be resurrected, thus this is the fifth resurrection. To live during the millennium you must be resurrected back into a human body like you have now. Some religions do not teach this but rather teach that we will be spiritual when in fact we will not.

The sixth resurrection comes after the millennium; "But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. " Rev 20:5

What happens then is the release of Satan, there he will go out and gather up the rulers and nations once again to lead them astray like he does now. This time period is unknown but as best as I can calculate it will be close to 2000-2500 years long.

Then comes the final battle of Gog and Magog that is deceptively being taught as happening before Jesus returns now, when in fact it happens after the millennium.

After that comes the seventh and final resurrection; "The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them." Rev 20:13

This is why Jesus said to "pray that your flight be not in the winter or on the Sabbath." As you can see, there are seven resurrections, or Raptures.

We are under a seven thousand year prophecy from the time of Daniel until the restoration of the kingdom of God is complete. Then there wil be an eighth day and then a new heaven and a new earth.

As for the seven year tribulation, it is mislead from the book of Daniel. Half of the seventieth week is already over, there is 42 months left which will finish it after the return of Jesus where we are in the clouds and not on earth. "And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months." Rev 13:5 The key word here is to "continue."

Does this help?

The term, "rapture" was coined in the mid-eighteenth century. Darby wanted to give his new "idea" about how to read the scriptures a name. So he called this pre-tribulation event, "rapture". Didn't take long for people to come up with conflicting beliefs on the rapture and it was split into the pre/mid/post departments. Also, as you have illustrated in your post above, there are even conflicts (differences) within the three major conflicts (differences). So now the word, "rapture" has various conflicting meanings and it's become whatever it is you make it.

I believe in the second coming. When it comes to being "caught up", I can only live in a manner that no matter which way it comes, all's well that end's well.


Bible simply means, "the books" (if I remember). Big difference between calling a collection of Holy books, "the books" and calling all the nasty strains of unsound doctrinal novelties that mutate faster than H1N1, "the rapture".

Just because we can draw conclusions based on the bible, doesn't make the conclusion correct, even if it is, technically speaking, "biblical".

 

[markhelp]

I feel sorry for the people who don't believe God's Word.
At least Jesus Christ saved me from the wrath to come.
[Romans 5:9 and 10]

 

[AnRev]

Ryan1976 We all know where the word Rapture came from. Some prefer to call it the "caught up" because they want to be politically correct. The word Christian also isn't in the bible, yet it exists.

Either case, there are seven resurrection events staged at three different time variances. Not the one single event that is and has been preached for years. Why do you think no one ever talks about the other six?

 

[Lifelike]

hahah this thread is a laughing stock. i dont believe that anyone could write a purely biblical argument for any of this, too much conjection, and personal opinion (passed off as totally backed, 100% definate, Word of God) You cant just say that if i dont believe in the pretrib rapture then i dont believe the word of god because others here look at the very same scriptures and interpret them to mean something totally different and the reason for this is that it is a difficult subject to get right because it is very complex and you need to take the whole word of God into account to understand it. To prove your point biblically You need to say "this is what the Word say here, and this is why SCRIPTURELY it relates to this certain time and this certain event ." u cant just preach your opinion or conclusion as the word of God. if i was to qoute 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
i couldnt with total assurance state that this scripture speaks about an event that takes place before the tribulation and after the watever , unless i show scripture that supports this timeline. we cant RATIONALISE where it fits and why, "well the bible (or Kenneth Copeland) says that God will save us from the wrath to come!" yes it does, but is He not able to save us from it here on this planet? "and when you go through the fire you will not be burned, and through the water you will not be drowned for I AM with you!" i am not afraid! in fact i desire to go through the fires of testing and troubles of all sorts so that His word and character can be worked in me. because at the first sign of trouble people are seen for what they really are, and if we are not challenged we will never overcome but will remain lukewarm and never face any of the hard stuff in our lives and heart. The tribulaiton is designed to shake everything that can be shaken so that only what is True remains. The antichrist is already here, and laws that will bring massive persecution to christians arent far away. those that arent ready will fall away, lord have mercy! God doesnt want you in heaven the way you are. haha He's gonna make a bride without spot or blemish, not just from the stand point that christ has paid the price and we have received Him(initially) but i is going to WORK his charachter in us and present a HOLY NATION in the midst of an UNGODLY WORLD seperating the wheat from the chaff before the end harvest, The christian world at large has had it wrong because of presumtion and wanting the Glory themselves. but this too God has brought to the surface to remove or purge. we are now in the not too distant future coming in to the times when escatalogical passages of scripture will be interpreted correctly as God opens the scrolls and releases to revelation, to arm His people for battle, and there will be a great VICTORY!

 

[Ryan1976]

Ryan1976 We all know where the word Rapture came from. Some prefer to call it the "caught up" because they want to be politically correct. The word Christian also isn't in the bible, yet it exists.

It's not about being pc. How often do you hear Catholics talking about being "caught up"? How often prior to the eighteen hundreds do you read about Christians referring to being caught up?

Acts 11:26
and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.

That it's in the bible is besides the point. You're saying Rapture exists. But then you have to define what exactly what you mean by rapture before it can be validated as "existing" and if what you mean is what sits below this sentence, then the convo's over.

Either case, there are seven resurrection events staged at three different time variances. Not the one single event that is and has been preached for years. Why do you think no one ever talks about the other six?

Because God wanted to keep this interpretation hidden from Christians until recently and then only reveal this brand new way of looking at Christian events to only a small number of select Christians and then have those few select Christians with this special hidden message to go out and refute all previous models of the resurrection with logic like, "it exists because if it's not in the bible then it still means that it exists because the word "bible" isn't in the bible and yet exists and therefore! these seven resurrection events exist".

Why don't you think people talk about the thousands upon thousands of these conflicting niche dispensationalist models dreamed up by some dood that uses the bible like a paint by numbers fun activity book?

Click the following.

Confessions of a Recovering Dispensationalist: Intro


Confessions of a Recovering Dispensationalist, Pt. 2: The Historical Record


Confessions of a Recovering Dispensationalist, Pt. 3: The Bible and the Rapture


Confessions of a Recovering Dispensationalist, Pt. 4: Ignoring the New Testament


Confessions of a Recovering Dispensationalist, Pt. 5: Miscellanies and Conclusions

Crayons! Can I get a box of crayons?

 

[kujo313]

While we're all wondering and pondering this question, ppl are dieing. Let's save as many as we can until we all know the answer!

 

[shad]

It's not about being pc. How often do you hear Catholics talking about being "caught up"? How often prior to the eighteen hundreds do you read about Christians referring to being caught up?

Acts 11:26
and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.

That it's in the bible is besides the point. You're saying Rapture exists. But then you have to define what exactly what you mean by rapture before it can be validated as "existing" and if what you mean is what sits below this sentence, then the convo's over.



Because God wanted to keep this interpretation hidden from Christians until recently and then only reveal this brand new way of looking at Christian events to only a small number of select Christians and then have those few select Christians with this special hidden message to go out and refute all previous models of the resurrection with logic like, "it exists because if it's not in the bible then it still means that it exists because the word "bible" isn't in the bible and yet exists and therefore! these seven resurrection events exist".

Why don't you think people talk about the thousands upon thousands of these conflicting niche dispensationalist models dreamed up by some dood that uses the bible like a paint by numbers fun activity book?

Click the following.

Confessions of a Recovering Dispensationalist: Intro


Confessions of a Recovering Dispensationalist, Pt. 2: The Historical Record


Confessions of a Recovering Dispensationalist, Pt. 3: The Bible and the Rapture


Confessions of a Recovering Dispensationalist, Pt. 4: Ignoring the New Testament


Confessions of a Recovering Dispensationalist, Pt. 5: Miscellanies and Conclusions

Crayons! Can I get a box of crayons?

This is nothing more that a 'Scriptural Schematic' of the Book of Revelations that Clarence Larkin put together in the early 1900's to give clarity and objectivity to a book that has been confusing to so many. I think it is a great piece of work and any believer could profit from its study and handiwork. It is not something that was crafted to embitter the believer but rather to edify and build the believer up in Christ. It is a shame that you feel the way you do and the effect it has had upon you.

 

[DieuMerci]

now...i think everything everyone is saying is interesting. i believe in whats calle the pre trib rapture by a scripture i never have seen anyone of you use, here, in the chat, etc... Please turn your bibles to Luke 21:36; the KJV reads as follows(i quote from this V because it is PD): Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Accompany this Word with faith, and practice and you will be 'raptured' before the trib.

 

[watchmen]

now...i think everything everyone is saying is interesting. i believe in whats calle the pre trib rapture by a scripture i never have seen anyone of you use, here, in the chat, etc... Please turn your bibles to Luke 21:36; the KJV reads as follows(i quote from this V because it is PD): Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Accompany this Word with faith, and practice and you will be 'raptured' before the trib.

How do you escape the tribulation if you were never in the tribulation? This verse proves that we will have to go through the tribulation, not vise versa. However we need to pray that we escape the things that are going to come to the earth while we are here. We will not be removed from the earth before the post trib return of Christ.

 

[Jezreel]

When I was first saved, the pastor of the place I was going to used Matthew 24 for the rapture. "as in the days of Noah, so is the coming of the son of man. People were eating and drinking and marrying and giving in marriage and they knew not until the flood came and took them all away. Two shall be in the field, one left, the other taken away, two men shall be in a bed, one left and the other taken away....and so on
That bothered me that they would use that scripture and I knew that when the flood came upon the earth it took the WICKED away so how cold they turn the scriptures around to seem inacurrate? Also, Jesus says, "FIRST, gather the tares into bundles to be burned, then, gather the wheat into the barn". Bundles are groups. His true wheat were in one barn and gathered up. God shall send forth his angels to gather together his elect from the four winds from the four corners of the earth.

 

[DieuMerci]

in the greek the word is ekpheugo, it can also mean to flee...in the context of the word he says watch and be prayerful(before). Why couldnt it mean before it comes? i see why it could be interpreted to escape from within but i also do as i said afterward, and accompany it with faith. My faith is the proof of what we cannont see, and so i know that even if we arent able to percieve with our eyes that it means we can escape the entire thing, that my faith proves it does. in the least watchmen (what is your name? My name is Tyler) it proves that in obediance to this command we dont have to go through the tribulation. we might see the beginning of it but because we have been watching and praying we will be able to escape it and see the son of man face to face. Or we might see it coming, but because weve been watchful and prayerful we will escape and see our Lord face to face (stand before him).