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Thread: speaking in tounges

  1. #1
    tillbrook
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    Default speaking in tounges

    hello all I was wondering if anyone can give evidence from scripture and historicly that the toungues in the bible are the toungues used today

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    jb
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    Default Re: speaking in tounges

    If you use the search function (top right of webpage) you will turn up quite a number on threads on this subject...

    Yahweh Shalom

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    Default Re: speaking in tounges

    The multitudes from different nations heard the Apostles, who were Galilaeans, speak in their own real dialects, and this aided in propagating the gospel. The incomprehensible gabble we hear today is simply manufactured by men and not the Holy Spirit's utterance.

    Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
    Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
    Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
    Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
    Act 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
    Act 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
    Act 2:7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
    Act 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
    Act 2:9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
    Act 2:10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
    Act 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
    Act 2:12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
    Act 2:13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
    Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
    Act 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
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    Default Re: speaking in tounges

    This is the first evidence, which is ignored by all those opposed. These people came to Jerusalem three times a year, so everyone in Jerusalem knew what their languages sounded like, just like we in America recognize Spanish and French, whether we speak them or not. This fact clearly demonstrates that the miracle was in the hearers, not in the speaker. Further, people today do occasionally speak in languages known to some of the attenders at the meetings, and then are heard to speak words that praise God.

    The second piece of evidence comes from the comments in I Cor. 14. It is pretty clear that if those tongues were not "babbling" rather than known human languages, there would be little point in forbidding them to be used without an interpreter, limiting them to personal prayer rather than meetings (which if a foreign language makes little sense to do alone), the contrast between praying, singing, and blessing with the spirit vs. with understanding, the insistence on "forbid not to do this", and leaving out any mention of "save them for when you are being missionaries in other countries, the way I and Barnabas do".

    Tongues are (note it does not say "will always be") a sign for unbelievers means a sign of conviction. Believers almost all had tongues then, as they do now if they believe in them, and proved nothing. In those days, only Christians and the pagan mystery religions had tongues; there were no "mimickers" as there are now, so the tongues proved the fervor of the participants. Similary, prophecy was then as it is now, and did not mostly predict the future, but rather served to lay bare the hears of believers, whereas unbeleivers had no reason to listedn.

  5. #5
    nathan3
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    Default Re: speaking in tounges

    Quote Originally Posted by tillbrook View Post
    hello all I was wondering if anyone can give evidence from scripture and historicly that the toungues in the bible are the toungues used today
    They can't because its Not. Although they will try to use scripture they don't understand and try to make it fit, and seem that way. But with study, you see it ends up being a lie and confusion.
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    Default Re: speaking in tounges

    The theological study was done by the Catholic Charismatics in the 1970's. I gave a little outline of some of the key points. Many of us have been praying in tongues for over 40 years, and have had plenty of time to see the fruit of it, which is, and has always been, overwhelmingly positive. This is another piece of Scriptural evidence ("by their fruits you will know them"), but is not directly the question asked.

    Before anyone asks, the most obvious fruit of the Catholic Charismatic renewal, is the entire modern church. People under 40 call this "church" and what used to be called "church" they call "old people's church", or sometimes "mainline". These churches started 1980-1990 by people thrown out of the Catholic Church after they started doing all the work and made the non-Spirit filled Catholics jealous. So, if you have a "praise team", and "anointed music", if you have "anointed messages", if you can play a guitar or drums in church, or dance, or wave flags, or been prophesied to, or been prayed over for healing in your home church, you can thank tongues for making this a permanent part of the world.

  7. #7
    nathan3
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    Default Re: speaking in tounges

    Quote Originally Posted by kenisyes View Post
    The theological study was done by the Catholic Charismatics in the 1970's. I gave a little outline of some of the key points. Many of us have been praying in tongues for over 40 years, and have had plenty of time to see the fruit of it, which is, and has always been, overwhelmingly positive. This is another piece of Scriptural evidence ("by their fruits you will know them"), but is not directly the question asked.

    Before anyone asks, the most obvious fruit of the Catholic Charismatic renewal, is the entire modern church. People under 40 call this "church" and what used to be called "church" they call "old people's church", or sometimes "mainline". These churches started 1980-1990 by people thrown out of the Catholic Church after they started doing all the work and made the non-Spirit filled Catholics jealous. So, if you have a "praise team", and "anointed music", if you have "anointed messages", if you can play a guitar or drums in church, or dance, or wave flags, or been prophesied to, or been prayed over for healing in your home church


    , you can thank tongues for making this a permanent part of the world.


    It brought a lot of stuff, into the church, and no truth from God's word. It is confusion . A lot of permanent confusion.

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    Default Re: speaking in tounges

    Quote Originally Posted by tillbrook View Post
    hello all I was wondering if anyone can give evidence from scripture and historicly that the toungues in the bible are the toungues used today
    As with prophecy in the Old Testament, there can be false manifestations. It isn't reasonable to expect that all modern occurrences of tongues are genuine. It is interesting to note that of the tongues Corinthians spoke in church, Paul said, 'no man understandeth him.' Paul spent much of the chapter arguing that tongues spoken in church needed to be interpreted to edify the congregation. The passage also shows us that genuine speaking in tongues can be used in a disorderly manner as well.

    It is also interesting to follow Paul's "long thoughts' throughout epistles. In I Corinthians 1, he mentions themes he will expand upon through the epistle. In the chapter, he mentions spiritual gifts, the coming of Christ, pride and foolishness of men and the wisdom of God. Later in the book, he deals with these same issues.

    Take these verses for example,
    4 I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given to you by Christ Jesus, 5 that you were enriched in everything by Him in all utterance and all knowledge, 6 even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, 7 so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 8 who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    (NKJV)

    While waiting for Jesus to come, they did not lack any spiritual gift. What gifts did He have in mind? He would list many, including speaking in tongues, later in the epistle. He would also mention the coming of the Lord in chapter 15 when he taught on the resurrection.
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  9. #9
    tillbrook
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    Default Re: speaking in tounges

    kenisyes are you saying tougues are ecstatic utterances that the believer does not know what he is saying but the unbeliever does. also do you think the unbeliever was the Jew but the unlearned was the gentile, and if that is so then toungues were a sign for the Jews

    also how do you interpret when Paul says pray with the Spirit and pray with the understanding

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    Default Re: speaking in tounges

    Quote Originally Posted by kenisyes View Post
    The theological study was done by the Catholic Charismatics in the 1970's. I gave a little outline of some of the key points. Many of us have been praying in tongues for over 40 years, and have had plenty of time to see the fruit of it, which is, and has always been, overwhelmingly positive. This is another piece of Scriptural evidence ("by their fruits you will know them"), but is not directly the question asked.

    Before anyone asks, the most obvious fruit of the Catholic Charismatic renewal, is the entire modern church. People under 40 call this "church" and what used to be called "church" they call "old people's church", or sometimes "mainline". These churches started 1980-1990 by people thrown out of the Catholic Church after they started doing all the work and made the non-Spirit filled Catholics jealous. So, if you have a "praise team", and "anointed music", if you have "anointed messages", if you can play a guitar or drums in church, or dance, or wave flags, or been prophesied to, or been prayed over for healing in your home church, you can thank tongues for making this a permanent part of the world.
    Tongues and the associated activities came in and Jesus and the Holy Spirit went out.

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger

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    Default Re: speaking in tounges

    Quote Originally Posted by tillbrook View Post
    kenisyes are you saying tougues are ecstatic utterances that the believer does not know what he is saying but the unbeliever does. also do you think the unbeliever was the Jew but the unlearned was the gentile, and if that is so then toungues were a sign for the Jews

    also how do you interpret when Paul says pray with the Spirit and pray with the understanding
    Normally tongues are not understood in the usual fashion of a language. I believe that Paul's "groans that cannot be expressed in speech" (Rom 8:26) accounts for the origin, because when I have the interpretation, this (vs. 27) is where it comes from rather than from my brain as does usual language. Infrequently tongues operate as a miraculous sign as they did on Pentecost, when someone recognizes praises of God in a rare language he was taught as a child. Also, infrequently, an interpetation is given by someone with that gift. Usually, no one but God knows what is being said. I don't know how "ecstatic" they are, they do not feel ecstatic to me. My wife used to pray in tongues for hours, sometimes singing them to whatever song popped into her head.

    Linguistically, you will note there are many words that exist in human language only because God intervened in history. Grace, salvation, baptism, eucharist, more lately "praise team" and "anointed", for example. These words must have existed in heaven, since God never changes, and He creates by His word. This is the foundation of saying that tongues is heavenly language, and that it is the last of the 8 steps in the foundation of church in I Cor. 12:28, this being that the original heavenly purpose of the apostle to found the new work, now takes on human names, so it can continue.

    I don't think unbeliever=Jew and unlearned=Gentile necessarily, because even though Paul was a trained Jewish rabbi, he was communicating with Greeks. I think "unbeliever" is anyone who does not believe Jesus Christ is the Messiah, and "unlearned" is any person without a proper education in rhetoric, philosophy, geometry, etc., according to the Greek model (Strong's agrees). Tongues were obviously a sign only for SOME of the Jews who were there at Pentecost, and those were the ones who believed by later that afternoon. Paul is generalizing from Jews to Gentiles when he draws these comparisons in I Cor.

    In this context (only) prayer in the spirit is tongues, prayer with understanding is in the natural language of the speaker. In other contexts, it can also compare to Jesus' comments to the woman at the well about worship in spirit and truth. This is how the word is used among those of us who came through the Cath. renewal to this day.

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    Default Re: speaking in tounges

    Quote Originally Posted by notuptome View Post
    Tongues and the associated activities came in and Jesus and the Holy Spirit went out.

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger
    You are associating with different people than I am.
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    jb
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    Default Re: speaking in tounges

    Quote Originally Posted by kenisyes View Post
    which is ignored by all those opposed...
    I have found over the past 30 years or so, that one might as well beat your head against a brick wall rather than try and show from the Scriptures that the gift of tongues is indeed still available today in the Church and is the initial evidence of having received the baptism in the Holy Spirit (the Promise of the Father), these persons like to retain the darkness in their minds and spirits on this most importnant subject (Luke 11v9-13, 24v49, John 7v37-39, 16v7, Acts 2v4)!

    For those interested, there are a copule of short studies Here and Here that deal with this subject and will answer all your questions...

    Yahweh Shalom
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    Default Re: speaking in tounges

    Here we go AGAIN.
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    Default Re: speaking in tounges

    Quote Originally Posted by nathan3 View Post
    They can't because its Not. Although they will try to use scripture they don't understand and try to make it fit, and seem that way. But with study, you see it ends up being a lie and confusion.

    no, my cousin speaks in tounges, he described it to me. it happened to him the same day he was baptized by the holy spirit.
    YOUR PAST LIFE EXPERIENCES DO NOT SHAPE THE CHARACTER OF GOD

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    Default Re: speaking in tounges

    he is mistaken
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    Default Re: speaking in tounges

    Your baptism of the Holy Spirit happens when you get your new nature. This is not 2 different things. Christians are indwelled with the Holy Spirit. At the time of salvation that is their baptism. Saying it is different is Pentecostal heresy.
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    Default Re: speaking in tounges

    I would study the word for yourself
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    Matthew 11:28 "Come to me, all of you who are weary and loaded down with burdens, and I will give you rest

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    Default Re: speaking in tounges

    Quote Originally Posted by tillbrook View Post
    kenisyes are you saying tougues are ecstatic utterances that the believer does not know what he is saying but the unbeliever does.
    If that was a survey question, I'd say you'd have to break it into three parts.

    Ecstatic utterance? It depends on what you mean by ecstasy. One could speak in tongues while in an excited emotional state or when very calm.

    I do not believe the speaker knows what he is saying since his understanding is unfruitful as I Corinthians 14 says. But I'd be open to the possibility that the speaker knows if he is simultaneously operating in the gift of interpretation.

    Generally, I would say listeners do not understand what is said because I Corinthians 14 says 'no man understandeth him.' But I believe Acts 2 like events can happen. Both have happened to modern speakers of tongues.

    also do you think the unbeliever was the Jew but the unlearned was the gentile, and if that is so then toungues were a sign for the Jews
    No, I wouldn't make that Jew/Gentile distinction. I'd be more inclined to think the unlearned was a seeker, maybe the equivalent of a new chatechumen a few centuries later. The sign of tongues, IMO, is that though they hear God speaking through men of other tongues and other lips God would speak to this people, and yet for all that they would not hear them. It would seem this sign of tongues is fulfilled when unbelievers hear tongues and yet will not hear.

    I do not believe that tongues are exlusively for a sign. The idea that tongues could no longer be a sign to the Jews doesn't make sense either since Jews still exist to this day.

    also how do you interpret when Paul says pray with the Spirit and pray with the understanding[/QUOTE]

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    Default Re: speaking in tounges

    Quote Originally Posted by kenisyes View Post
    Similary, prophecy was then as it is now, and did not mostly predict the future, but rather served to lay bare the hears of believers, whereas unbeleivers had no reason to listedn.
    Prophecy can and could be about the future, if the Holy Spirit moved men to speak on the subject. Agabus predicted a drought.

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