Fall of man
- Thread starter directline2iam
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
D
The knowledge of good and evil.....We didn't have the capacity to even understand what evil was before Adam and Eve ate from that tree.....It's also interesting to note that the tree of life (Immortality) was not forbidden for us at the time, they could have ate from that tree lawfully....but nope, straight for the bad fruit
Ok here's what I'm trying to get at: Are we talking about a physical fruit tree here with for example, the obvious apple? Or, are we talking about Eve partaking in sexual sin Gen 3:3 where the kjv uses the word "touch" which translated means to lie down with a woman?
Because the whole story from beginning to end of the bible has to be understood correctly at the start of it. And the Lutheran upbringing that I had says Eve ate an apple but the story has changed since I was a boy.
Because the whole story from beginning to end of the bible has to be understood correctly at the start of it. And the Lutheran upbringing that I had says Eve ate an apple but the story has changed since I was a boy.
Last edited:
T
What Lutheran church do you attend? I'm Lutheran too but I've never heard such bollocks. You seem to have combined the Jewish story found in the Old Testament and Jewish mysticism (regarding Adam, Eve and Lilith). I was never taught that the fruit was an apple, but subconsciously I probably though it did (children's Bibles etc. I blame you!) Also, God's Truth doesn't change over time but our understanding of his Truth does. And you're using the KJV language, rather than the original Hebrew to put forward the possible notion that it was sexual sin? Awkward!
Hi there, I don't attend physical church anymore but was baptized and confirmed in the WELS ev luth church. Was taught they Adam and Eve ate a forbidden fruit that no one today actually knows what the fruit was, and that's ok. I used an apple as an example. But I watch Shepherds Chapel and they teach a whole different understanding of the bible than what we learned, and I have to say it all sounds good to me cause they cross ref.. the old and new testament into one big happy story just like the lutherans except the story is way way different. So how am I sapose to know who's telling the truth and who's pulling my tail?
D
I believe it was a literal tree myself. I seriously doubt it had anything to do with sex....after all, Eve was Adam's wife.....sex would not have been a sin....furthermore.....the tree was also supposed to make one wise....sex may be pleasurable but I've never heard anybody claim sex can make you wise. The tree of life is also referred to in the literal sense, and it is said that the leaves of that tree will be for the healing of nations and it bears twelve manners of fruit.
Also, although many people have never read it.....in the book of Enoch.....Enoch actually see's the tree of life literally and if I'm not mistaken (I haven't read the book in it's entirety for sometime) he literally sees the tree of good and evil as well.
As far as the actual fruit goes, it's probably nothing that we actually have in our food supply today......As far as I know, the Garden of Eden is the only place it was ever located and I've seen no indication that there are other trees like it or that they grow somewhere else.
Also, although many people have never read it.....in the book of Enoch.....Enoch actually see's the tree of life literally and if I'm not mistaken (I haven't read the book in it's entirety for sometime) he literally sees the tree of good and evil as well.
As far as the actual fruit goes, it's probably nothing that we actually have in our food supply today......As far as I know, the Garden of Eden is the only place it was ever located and I've seen no indication that there are other trees like it or that they grow somewhere else.
Ecclesiastes 9:4-7
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
All knowledge, whether good or bad goes with the one who dies to the grave.
Romans 6:3
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Dead men know nothing! Because of this:
Galatians 3:27-28
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
All of these things go away when one goes to the grave, so if one is living with the mindset of a "dead-man", then he has put on Christ, no longer knowing good nor evil, only God.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
All knowledge, whether good or bad goes with the one who dies to the grave.
Romans 6:3
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Dead men know nothing! Because of this:
Galatians 3:27-28
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
All of these things go away when one goes to the grave, so if one is living with the mindset of a "dead-man", then he has put on Christ, no longer knowing good nor evil, only God.
What does the tree represent? Like all revealed symbols, the tree is a representation of something beyond itself. This tree represents something unseen that cannot be perceived by the senses.
1. A particular type of knowledge that is destructive and forbidden - the knowledge of good and evil. Man cannot arrive at this conclusion on his own. When Adam relates to this tree on the basis his senses, his senses tell him there is nothing different about this tree from any other tree in the garden that was “good for food.” Unconstrained human intelligence that is operating outside representational controls (the words of the Lord) will always minimize visible representations. Adam and Eve will set aside these representational controls (“Of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil thou shall not eat...”) in favor of a personal agenda. The Word of God must stand as representational controls to instruct man in things that he has no point of reference to understand. God understood things about man and his relationship to the tree that man did not know and was not given to know.
2. The tree represents a type of knowledge that belongs exclusively to God. Man was not endowed with the capacity to discern between good and evil. The violation of the tree did not change this fact. This is knowledge
that is beyond man's capability to handle. This is knowledge that is not necessary for man to fulfill his assigned function. In fact, it will prove detrimental to it. The role of man was:
a. Rule over creation.
b. Exercise dominion over all life.
c. Establish control.
d. Fill the earth.
3. Ethical limitations – What was wrong with man knowing the difference between good and evil? Is this not a prudent thing? Man does not have the right to establish standards of moral and ethical conduct. This right belongs to God alone. God provided a standard to instruct man on how to think when he considers this tree. Observance of this ethical standard becomes a matter of life and death. Contact with this tree is evil both because God said, “Don't touch it!” and because of the consequences involved.
4. Because man chose to violate God's prohibition of the tree, he is now faced with a new reality. Man is now faced with a particular type of knowledge that will forever change his ability to make proper ethical application to
his material existence. He now has access to the knowledge of good and evil. This presents at least three problems.
a. He does not know what to do with it.
b. He does not know the difference between good and evil.
c. History shows us that given a choice, man will generally choose evil rather than good even when revelation is present, Genesis 6.
Why did God place the tree in the garden? To provide an option. It offers an avenue for choosing between two epistemologies. This is a decision about which method of reasoning man will trust to tell him the truth about his
world and his relationship to things he cannot see. Man only has two choices.
1. Revelation – This is knowledge that is transferred from the mind of God to the mind of man. This is triadic reasoning.
2. Rationalization – This is knowledge that is derived from human experience. This is knowledge that is derived from the five senses operating in the natural world. Only one mind. This is dyadic reasoning.
The human rational process:
As an intellectual discipline, rationalization is a process by which we interpret information and formulate conclusions. It is a thinking process that is in no way indebted to revelation. How does one engage the process of rationalization?
1. We begin by assembling the facts or the evidence.
2. We then weigh the facts against all known or imagined possibilities.
3. We then establish a language base. We do this by allowing our understanding of natural laws to limit what we think we can say about any given situation.
4. We then compare the situation to an historical context, (similar situations in the past whether personal or someone else's experience).
5. Finally, we make predictions based on the outcomes from the historical context. This creates a limited field of function and a limited field of response. It also reveals a limited perception of reality.
This then begs the question, “Is rationalization wrong?” One would have to say NO. Man was created with the capacity for rational thought.
1. It serves a created function. It allows us to function within the confines of our natural environments. For example:
a. Through the rationalization process we learn that we do not stick our hand in the fire because heat radiation is associated with pain.
b. We do not set out on a road trip with an empty tank of gas and expect positive results.
c. We do not step out in front of a speeding buss because we know there is a negative direct relation between mass in motion and our bodies.
2. While all these things are true, rationalization has a limited application.
If rationalization is not wrong, then where is the problem? The problem is in the abuse of the rational process. When we take the human rational process out of its assigned place and elevate it above revelation we sin in its application. The opposite of faith is not unbelief, it is rationalization because this process stands exactly opposite of faith.
The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, 7-8. What does the tree do?
1. It does not introduce evil into the world, (This must be answered in the light of Romans 5:12). Evil was already present. The serpent uses lies and deceit even before man violated the prohibition and introduced sin into the world of man.
2. Man was created to see reality through the eyes of God. The tree offers man the ability to see reality through the eyes of the serpent. The tree offers an alternative perception of reality. It distorts perception and perverts the decision making process. Eve already knew the difference between right and wrong and God held her accountable for it.
3. The two trees represent the beginning to the covenant of blessing and cursing – One tree of life, the other of death, Deuteronomy 30:15-20.
4. “Their eyes were opened.” This is not optical perception but intellectual perception. Realization of what was previously understood in an entirely different context. Their perception of their experience changes. Nakedness now becomes an issue. This is not a change of condition. They had always been naked. This is a change in how that experience is represented.
a. That condition was, pure, and good.
b. A perverted perception of experience disconnects the experience from the will and purpose of God. It changes the context.
c. Shame is now attached to the condition. What are the cloths for? To cover the shame that can no longer be disconnected from the condition.
d. Fear is now introduced into the experience. “They heard the sound of the Lord walking in the garden in the cool of the day.” A familiar sound now takes on a whole new context.
By Glen Rogers
Last edited:
hi, just so you know, I'm not trying to argue anything just out to learn. Now knowledge and wisdom are two different things. It wasn't a tree of wisdom but a tree of knowledge. How we use knowledge decides whether we are wise or not. Eve was Adams wife yes. However, I didn't say she was having sex with Adam, I was saying she was having sex. I don't pretend to know the whole story yet but the sermons I've been listening to make it sound like she was having sex with the fallen angels.
I watch a program on TV called Shepherds Chapel and the Minister jumps around the Bible here and there in his lectures so I don't have his version down pat yet.
It doesn't really affect my going to heaven because I am a true believer in the blood of Christ and no one can pluck me out of His hand, however, the bible is a spiritual book from beginning to end. We only know in part which may very well keep us wanting to know more, which is a good thing. And the parts that we do have can be very misleading and misunderstood when we have so many hebrew words with so many different meanings for each word. Apparently their vocabulary was very limited back then using one word and having five different meanings to it. So I'm in search of the truth nothing more. Some words are ment to be taken literally and some not. Plus the KJV of the bible was written very poetically and backwards if you ask me. I have other bibles But they all present the same thought of which I was taught when I was younger. So those don't help much.
It says the serpent begiled Eve. The serpent being Satin. Begiled in the greek expoctao (or however it's said) translates to holy seduced. The point being if you believe a serpent talked to Eve why would it be so hard to believe the rest of the story? And if you follow along in the bible with the giants living in those days being the offspring it's not all that hard to believe. Jesus didn't come from the line of Cain cause that would of made Satin his many great grand daddy.
And I'll tell ya, I'm not easily fooled by bullroar and such and the minister says and explains everything else according to the scriptures I was brought up with, so like I said, I'm just tryin to find out what the deal is and any and all other peoples explanations are welcome.
Son, you are taking scripture out of context. For one the Apostle Paul asked the Lord 3 times to take away the thorn in his side. That thorn was a sin that he Paul couldn't shake off. So knowing a sin is also knowing good and EVIL. And Paul was certainly a Christian who put on Christ. Let's not change the subject though.