Who is able to obtain faith?

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Who is able to have faith? (Multiple choice)

  • Everyone has it, but they need to place it in Christ to be saved.

    Votes: 3 42.9%
  • Those who hear the word of God.

    Votes: 2 28.6%
  • God only gives faith to those whom He predestined to go to heaven.

    Votes: 1 14.3%
  • OTHER -

    Votes: 2 28.6%

  • Total voters
    7
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Definition_Christ

Guest
#1
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Romans 12
3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.
4 For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function,
5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another.
6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith;
7 or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; 8 he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.

So the question is... How do we obtain faith? Well let's go a few chapters back in Romans.

Romans 10
1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved.
2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.”
6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
7 or, “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”
14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“ How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?”
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed:
“ Their sound has gone out to all the earth,
And their words to the ends of the world.
19 But I say, did Israel not know? First Moses says:
“ I will provoke you to jealousy by those who are not a nation,
I will move you to anger by a foolish nation."
20 But Isaiah is very bold and says:
“ I was found by those who did not seek Me;
I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me.
21 But to Israel he says:
“ All day long I have stretched out My hands
To a disobedient and contrary people.”


I ask this because for example ......John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Some people say "That doesn't say whoever chooses to believe it just says whoever BELIEVES".. Not only does that not make sense (hence believing is an action verb) but to me.. Well after reading Romans 10... It's very unbiblical. But that is why I posted this.. To get some idea's on...

How do we get faith?

and

Is ANYONE who hears the Word of God able to "get" faith?
 
Jul 21, 2009
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#2
Who is able to have faith? (Multiple choice)
Everyone has it, but they need to place it in Christ to be saved.
Those who hear the word of God.
God only gives faith to those whom He predestined to go to heaven.
All of these.
Everyone has a faith. Faith that your car will get you to your destination. A person can hope for many future things. The difference in a worldly faith and Christian faith is one may put faith in his car to get him to work, and another will put his faith in Jesus to get him to heaven.
Also, a measure of faith is given to all mankind. But an increase in holy faith is given to those who believe.

I think there is confusion over the semantics of the word faith.

T
 

DinoDillinger

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
839
19
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#3
According to this passage, God has GIVEN each man his faith. This is talking about the body of Christ (12:4), Paul was saying, don't be proud of your faith. It's the gift of God. This is also referenced in 14:1. A member of the body WEAK in faith. Does it not say that God will be found by those who didn't seek Him? How in any way does that sound like them choosing God?

Jesus clearly explains why some DON'T believe.

John 10:24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”
25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.[a] 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

John 6:61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”[a]
70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?”

Jer 18:“O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the LORD. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel!


Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”[a] 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”[b] 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As He says also in Hosea:


“ I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”[c]
26 “ And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,

You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”


Who are we to question God? Jesus didn't.

25 At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. 26 Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him
 
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Definition_Christ

Guest
#4
Jesus clearly explains why some DON'T believe.
14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
Umm just to let you know.. You can't contradict scripture with scripture. Could there maybe be a different interpretation of Romans 10 and John 6? Maybe one of them is talking about a completely different thing. Anyway...

So... Yes Jesus explains why some don't believe but that doesn't mean they don't have the choice TO believe.. That was my point of the whole thread. Just because someone doesn't believe does not mean they are not capable of believing or placing faith into Christ.
 

DinoDillinger

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
839
19
18
#5
I choose the 2nd and 3rd option, For faith comes by hearing, and as the scripture shows, only His sheep hear His voice(believe).
 
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Definition_Christ

Guest
#6
Matthew 11
25 At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes.
26 Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.
27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

Jesus was talking to the people who were trying to know the Father through the law. He is saying you cannot gain a relationship with God through the law. Only by the Son. If we "COME TO JESUS", than we will know the Father.

The "yoke" was referring to the law, preferably the law of Moses. It's known to Jews as the yoke of the law, or the yoke of heaven. Jesus is saying if you come to me. My law is easy.. My burden is light.. Come to me and I will show you the Father.

I actually heard a messianic pastor preaching on this exact passage.
 

DinoDillinger

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
839
19
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#7
Umm just to let you know.. You can't contradict scripture with scripture. Could there maybe be a different interpretation of Romans 10 and John 6? Maybe one of them is talking about a completely different thing. Anyway...

So... Yes Jesus explains why some don't believe but that doesn't mean they don't have the choice TO believe.. That was my point of the whole thread. Just because someone doesn't believe does not mean they are not capable of believing or placing faith into Christ.
We are not capable, God is the one that is the healer, not us. God commands us to repent, and seek the kingdom of God. If you do, God promises to reveal Himself to you and give you truth. This is all part of what Jesus spoke of the Father drawing you to Him.

God is a jealous God, He doesn't let you take any of the glory for your salvation, because it's HIS work.

This is what God said to Moses when he didn't give God the glory for God's work.

Num. 20:12 Then the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not believe Me, to hallow Me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them.”

I pray that God will speak to your hearts on this matter, that He alone may be exalted in the earth.
 
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Definition_Christ

Guest
#8
We are not capable, God is the one that is the healer, not us. God commands us to repent, and seek the kingdom of God. If you do, God promises to reveal Himself to you and give you truth. This is all part of what Jesus spoke of the Father drawing you to Him.

God is a jealous God, He doesn't let you take any of the glory for your salvation, because it's HIS work.

This is what God said to Moses when he didn't give God the glory for God's work.

Num. 20:12 Then the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not believe Me, to hallow Me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them.”

I pray that God will speak to your hearts on this matter, that He alone may be exalted in the earth.
Okay first of all you are referring to the Old Covenant and I'm pretty sure last time I brought up a verse that was referring to the Old Covenant you gave some excuse as to why it's not valid anymore.

No one is taking glory for their salvation?... Where did you get that idea from???
 

DinoDillinger

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
839
19
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#9
Okay first of all you are referring to the Old Covenant and I'm pretty sure last time I brought up a verse that was referring to the Old Covenant you gave some excuse as to why it's not valid anymore.

No one is taking glory for their salvation?... Where did you get that idea from???
It's implied when someone says that you put your faith in Jesus, or I accepted Christ in my heart. Where's God's power in that? It sounds like something you choose to do. In the sentence itself you place yourself before God. I understand that most churches today teach people these terms. It's not in the bible.

I put "accept Jesus" in a biblegateway search. This was the first thing on the list...(nowhere do they appear beside each other)

Matt 19:10[ Jesus Teaches on Celibacy ] But He said to them, “All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given

Here's the first one for "put faith"

1 Thes 5:7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ

I mean, wow, I didn't even know that verse.

Do the searches yourself if you want. I find it very interesting how these to came up.

Here are 2 answers to a question based on our opposing understanding.

Why are you a christian?

1.(modern church, man's decision) I accepted Christ in my heart.
2.(election believer, who is accused of making God out to be wicked) God saved me.

Which of the 2 gives more glory to God?

Who taught you?
A preacher?
I recieved truth from the Holy Spirit, as it is written, they shall be taught by God. They will come to Me(Jesus), and I will raise them up on the last day.
 
S

Slepsog4

Guest
#10
The elect are those who accept salvation on God's terms -- he predestined the plan, not those who would follow it.

The plan is presented, people believe and obey it or they don't.
 

DinoDillinger

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
839
19
18
#11
The elect are those who accept salvation on God's terms -- he predestined the plan, not those who would follow it.

The plan is presented, people believe and obey it or they don't.
Not according to the bible.
 
D

Definition_Christ

Guest
#12
It's implied when someone says that you put your faith in Jesus, or I accepted Christ in my heart. Where's God's power in that? It sounds like something you choose to do. In the sentence itself you place yourself before God. I understand that most churches today teach people these terms. It's not in the bible.

I put "accept Jesus" in a biblegateway search. This was the first thing on the list...(nowhere do they appear beside each other)

Matt 19:10[ Jesus Teaches on Celibacy ] But He said to them, “All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given

Here's the first one for "put faith"

1 Thes 5:7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ

I mean, wow, I didn't even know that verse.

Do the searches yourself if you want. I find it very interesting how these to came up.

Here are 2 answers to a question based on our opposing understanding.

Why are you a christian?

1.(modern church, man's decision) I accepted Christ in my heart.
2.(election believer, who is accused of making God out to be wicked) God saved me.

Which of the 2 gives more glory to God?

Who taught you?
A preacher?
I recieved truth from the Holy Spirit, as it is written, they shall be taught by God. They will come to Me(Jesus), and I will raise them up on the last day.
Dude... CONTEXT.... 1 Thessalonians 5 is talking about the second coming of Jesus. It's speaking about the tribulation.. God did not appoint us to wrath (the great tribulation), but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Which gives more glory to God?
1) (modern church) People go to hell because they reject Jesus as their Lord and Savior.
2. (elect believers) People go to hell because God predestined them to and He gets glory out of it.

I mean seriously... REALLY?...You can't see the calvinist are making God almighty into a tyrant? And I already know you're going to post Romans 9 up there which is totally out of context because it's speaking about Israel and gentiles.

I recieved truth from the Holy Spirit, as it is written, they shall be taught by God. They will come to Me(Jesus), and I will raise them up on the last day.
You just admitted you received truth from the Holy Spirit.. There is never any consistanty witha calvinist at all.
 

DinoDillinger

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
839
19
18
#13
Dude... CONTEXT.... 1 Thessalonians 5 is talking about the second coming of Jesus. It's speaking about the tribulation.. God did not appoint us to wrath (the great tribulation), but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Which gives more glory to God?
1) (modern church) People go to hell because they reject Jesus as their Lord and Savior.
2. (elect believers) People go to hell because God predestined them to and He gets glory out of it.

I mean seriously... REALLY?...You can't see the calvinist are making God almighty into a tyrant? And I already know you're going to post Romans 9 up there which is totally out of context because it's speaking about Israel and gentiles.



You just admitted you received truth from the Holy Spirit.. There is never any consistanty witha calvinist at all.
First off, because I believe in election I'm a calvinist?

The only reason I posted from Thes. is because I did a search of what modern christians and churches for that matter teach, that isn't even in the bible.

Why in your eyes is God just in hiding the truth from Israel in Romans 9 and giving it to the gentiles but when it comes to Him selecting for Himself a remenant among the nations He becomes a tyrant?

I don't like the idea of people going to hell, but it's not my choice. I am not the judge, surely the wisdom of God is perfectly righteous, as opposed to mine. Jesus said thank you Father, for it seemed good in your sight. So do I, let God be found true and every man a liar.
 

DinoDillinger

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
839
19
18
#14
Oh, last thing, how does election contridict recieving truth from the Holy Spirit.

My understanding of it,
1. The Father draws His sheep, leading them to repentance and the seeking the kingdom of God.
2. When the Father deems it time, He gives them the Holy Spirit.
3. He which was blind, sees! by the grace of God.

The elect don't get to skip that stuff, that stuff is for them. they are the ones whom God foreknew, if you wanna have a legit debate, Did God only foreknew they would do it, or was it God picked people in His wisdom that He knew would make His glory manifest? That's the only space you have to debate it honestly, in my opinion.
 
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Definition_Christ

Guest
#15
Why in your eyes is God just in hiding the truth from Israel in Romans 9 and giving it to the gentiles but when it comes to Him selecting for Himself a remenant among the nations He becomes a tyrant?
God only has their eyes blinded until the fullness of the gentiles come in. THEN He will open their eyes.

Romans 11
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“ The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

You say God predestines people to go to hell without even giving them a chance to know Him (hence they can't reject Him).. How is that a loving God in your eyes?
 
M

motojojo

Guest
#16
The way I look at it is all have the ability to choose God but some do not. God burns in their hearts and they have no choice, they are the salt of the earth and they are scattered threw out the land.
 

pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
14,479
182
63
#17
God gave all a measure of faith. His gift, we can accept or reject.
God bless, pickles
 
I

iraasuup

Guest
#18
I think that Definition_Christ made a good point in saying that John 3:16 only says 'whosoever believes' but, should we not also note that it says 'whosoever believes in HIM' ?

Sure anyone can have some level of faith. I mean I have faith if I close the windows, the rain won't come in. I have faith that no matter what I do, my parents will always love me, I have faith that If I go to work everyday, there will be funds in my bank account to pay my bills.

The question is more about (in my opinion) where their faith is grounded. If your faith is in Jesus Christ (and yes, anyone can have that faith- they simply have to choose to believe- isn't that faith in itself.. beleiving in something even though you may not be able to see it. touch it etc etc) then everything is is superfluous...one would think!

Those are just my thoughts though.
 

pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
14,479
182
63
#19
The measure of faith in Jesus is given when you open the door to him in faith. There is the faith of the world, but the faith given by Our Lord God is a perfect faith that once accepted is powerful because of him. No longer of me but of God. Godbless, pickles
 
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iraasuup

Guest
#20
Exactly what I'm trying to say Pickles, you just said it better than me lol.
 
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