Luke 16:19-31 Study, Rich man/ Poor man

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
T

Trax

Guest
#1
#1
Ok, what do you gain from this story by Jesus?
Luk 16:19-31 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared
sumptuously every day: (20) And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at
his gate, full of sores, (21) And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's
table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. (22) And it came to pass, that the beggar
died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus
in his bosom. (24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus,
that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and
likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. (26) And beside
all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence
to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. (27) Then he said, I pray
thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: (28) For I have five brethren;
that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. (29) Abraham saith unto
him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. (30) And he said, Nay, father Abraham:
but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. (31) And he said unto him, If they hear
not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

1. First thing I notice is Jesus using physical terms, tongue, eyes, finger, etc...but the people are
dead. I think many miss that. Both the rich man and the poor man bodies have stopped and started
to rot. Their bodies don't work now. The eyes don't see and the body feels no thirst. So what
is up with the physical terms? Maybe we couldn't comprehend what was really going on in the
spiritual, thus Jesus used terms that we could comprehend and relate to. Maybe He didn't want
to reveal too much about the spirit world to keep people from the occult.

2. If the rich man's body doesn't work and doesn't feel thirst, why is he wanting a drop of water?
Water is a picture of the spirit. The rich man died in his sins and now is completely cut off from
God. No one can comprehend this. Not even the diehard nonbeliever, because God provides for
the good and the bad. But now, the rich man is cut off and asking for one drop of water. Or maybe
one drop of God's spirit. What the rich man is suffering from may go way beyond physical thirst.

3. The rich man's brain doesn't work either, so how is it he remembers he has brothers? Maybe
our memories aren't stored in the brain as people think. If you died a believer and your brain rotted,
taking your memories with it, how would you remember who Jesus is? How would a non-believer
remember his/her sins on the day of judgement? If memories are stored in the brain, it appears
either the soul or spirit contains a back up copy, or contains the only copy.
 
Blain

Blain

The Word Weaver
#2
Aug 28, 2012
19,212
2,547
113
#2
when Both the rich man and lazarus died they were both given imortal bodies that cannot die. In hell we will feel intense heat and intense thirst beyond what we can handle. we will wish for death but death will never come. I do not remember the verse that speaks of these bodies but maybe someone else will know it
 
T

Trax

Guest
#3
#3
Blain said:
when Both the rich man and lazarus died they were both given imortal bodies that cannot die. In hell we will feel intense heat and intense thirst beyond what we can handle. we will wish for death but death will never come. I do not remember the verse that speaks of these bodies but maybe someone else will know it
Click to expand...
There is no need for a ressurection if we are given an imortal body upon death.
 
Blain

Blain

The Word Weaver
#4
Aug 28, 2012
19,212
2,547
113
#4
Trax said:
There is no need for a ressurection if we are given an imortal body upon death.
Click to expand...
If you mean being ressurected from the dead then yes there is a reason for it. it is upon that ressurection these bodies are given to us. How else are we to feel pain and thirst and hunger and fire in hell?
 
T

Trax

Guest
#5
#5
Blain said:
If you mean being ressurected from the dead then yes there is a reason for it. it is upon that ressurection these bodies are given to us. How else are we to feel pain and thirst and hunger and fire in hell?
Click to expand...
But the point of the story, the good and bad were in the same place, just seperated. No ressurection
had taken place. Pain, hunger and thirst is only physical and does not affect the soul or spirit.
You don't need a lake of fire for just the physical. Death and hades are thrown into the lake of fire, and that
is spiritual. So when the guy asked for a drop of water, a spiritual lesson is being taught.
 
1

12tribes1King

Guest
#6
#6
It's a parable and a similitude, look at the whole parable in context after reading the first 19 verses and it should be apparent that you might not be seeing the whole picture, as it appears you are taking a proverb and similitude in a literal word for word; verbatim as to try to understand the physical aspects of the afterlife but I could be mistaken. Either way, From what I can see the parable teaches that if you don't repent and are an unjust steward to God as the Pharisees were, you will be in utter misery on the day you receive damnation regardless of who your ancestors were even a priest of God, arrayed in purple and fine linen living luxuriously. The physical aspects of the parable are in place to let you know that you will be tormented and feel it, also that there is a great gulf fixed, no one is going to get you out, once you are damned. All men not just the Pharisees are warned in this parable that you may live high on the hog here, descendant of Abraham or not, but because you close your heart and purse to the needy, and deal treacherously with God's covenant it will be near impossible to make it in to heaven. As it is written it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle then for this sort of man to enter in to the kingdom of heaven unless he gave up all he owned and followed Christ. Also the poor people who begged the Pharisees for sustenance by even sitting at the gates of the Pharisees dwellings, who horded all of their increase of wealth to their own, were unjust stewards dealing treacherously against God and His people through their deeds toward their fellow men. Remember the Pharisees thought they were a godly sort that could make up their own rules and were blessed forever because they were descendants of Abraham even though they denied their Savior and God who established the covenant with Abraham. Many will find out when they awake from sleep on the last day that being a descendant of Abraham won't get you in to heaven. Also, a man who lives here with riches and little worries, even a son of Abraham like the Pharisees that derided (mocked) him in verse 14 will not be acceptable to the eternal kingdom. As it is written in Matthew 3:10 "And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down , and cast into the fire."

1., 2., 3. The rich man nor Lazarus is dead and rotting in this parable nor does this statement apply either "The eyes don't see and the body feels no thirst" as it states in verses 23 and 24
"(23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus
in his bosom. (24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus,
that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame." in this particular parable the state of death has passed and they are both awakened from their sleep of death "and in hell he lift up his eyes being in torment and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus" He sees Lazarus alive with Abraham having plenty of living water to drink. The rich man is awakened to his damnation and finds torment and great thirst.
Once again this is a parable that was told to the Pharisees after they derided (mocked) Christ in verse 14 "And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him." This happened right after he had told the parable of the faithful steward to his disciples that the Pharisees pretended to be but were nothing more than unjust hypocrites doomed to damnation.
 
G

Graybeard

Guest
#7
#7
I don't think the place where Lazarus was exists anymore, or should I say it still exists but the people who were there have been taken away from it.
 
T

Trax

Guest
#8
#8
12tribes1King said:
It's a parable and a similitude,
Click to expand...
Jesus didn't teach monkeys could fly. He chose His words on purpose. He told about a dead
man seeing and thinking which goes outside the norm of "monkeys flying" or He is telling you
something deeper along with the top surface comments. To feel physical pain "only", which
is being advocated, but not by me, doesn't touch the soul or spirit. You do not need a spiritual
place to accomplish this. But this rich man isn't feeling it in the physical, but in the spiritual.
The rich man's body is dead can NOT suffer. Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar
died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
The beggar's body is still where it was buried. All this is happening in the spiritual and not the
physical. The rich man was asking for something other than just plain water, because water would
offer no relief in the spiritual.
 
1

12tribes1King

Guest
#9
#9
[SUP]Mark 4:
11 [/SUP]And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

[SUP]12 [/SUP]That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

May it be so, that God grants you the answers you seek as you diligently seek him in your heart. :)
 
DiscipleDave

DiscipleDave

Senior Member
#10
Sep 4, 2012
3,095
69
48
#10
Trax said:
Ok, what do you gain from this story by Jesus?
Luk 16:19-31 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared
sumptuously every day: (20) And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at
his gate, full of sores, (21) And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's
table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. (22) And it came to pass, that the beggar
died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus
in his bosom. (24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus,
that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and
likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. (26) And beside
all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence
to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. (27) Then he said, I pray
thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: (28) For I have five brethren;
that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. (29) Abraham saith unto
him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. (30) And he said, Nay, father Abraham:
but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. (31) And he said unto him, If they hear
not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

1. First thing I notice is Jesus using physical terms, tongue, eyes, finger, etc...but the people are
dead. I think many miss that. Both the rich man and the poor man bodies have stopped and started
to rot. Their bodies don't work now. The eyes don't see and the body feels no thirst. So what
is up with the physical terms? Maybe we couldn't comprehend what was really going on in the
spiritual, thus Jesus used terms that we could comprehend and relate to. Maybe He didn't want
to reveal too much about the spirit world to keep people from the occult.

2. If the rich man's body doesn't work and doesn't feel thirst, why is he wanting a drop of water?
Water is a picture of the spirit. The rich man died in his sins and now is completely cut off from
God. No one can comprehend this. Not even the diehard nonbeliever, because God provides for
the good and the bad. But now, the rich man is cut off and asking for one drop of water. Or maybe
one drop of God's spirit. What the rich man is suffering from may go way beyond physical thirst.

3. The rich man's brain doesn't work either, so how is it he remembers he has brothers? Maybe
our memories aren't stored in the brain as people think. If you died a believer and your brain rotted,
taking your memories with it, how would you remember who Jesus is? How would a non-believer
remember his/her sins on the day of judgement? If memories are stored in the brain, it appears
either the soul or spirit contains a back up copy, or contains the only copy.
Click to expand...
it is as you say in the start of this post, it is a story by Jesus, it is a parable, it is not Factual, or something that actually happened. It is a parable.

^i^
 
C

Cino

Guest
#11
#11
These verses explain to us exactly what Hell will be like. Intense heat, not burning a soul, but forever burning with heat to torment. There will be no escape. There will be no returning. There will be no more chances to change your mind. There will be no believers there, no love, only hate and torment forever. The souls there will have a memory, and it will be brought to remembrance that you heard of the Lord and you didn't have to be there, and how you could have repented. There will be a memory, because in verse 25, Abraham said to the rich man "remember"? We don't need to know all the answers of why, where, when, etc. We just need to believe in God's word that it is the truth. We need to believe it is this way, because this is what the Bible tells us how it will be. We need to believe that God keeps his promises, and even though we always talk about the promise if eternal life, Hell too, is a promise of God. A promise that those who reject Him and His son Jesus Christ will go to Hell, and it is only because of the free choice and will of those souls that reject Him that they are there. If you choose to completely go away from God and want nothing to do with Him, then His promise is that you will end up in Hell. What a place to go!
 
C

Cino

Guest
#12
#12
Another comment I want to say about Hell. God does not damn anyone, ever. It is our choice. The Bible says he who does not believe and is not baptized shall be damned. God gave instructions in the Bible how we can obtain salvation. It is our choice. I guess you could say a good description of damnation is God leaving alone those who do not wish to be bothered by Him. Damnation comes to those who insist on having it their own way. Hell is having it your own way.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.