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No He has not fulfilled this for Jerusalem and the Jews, which is the subject of the 70 wks.
Jerusalem still has lots of sin. And everlasting righteousness has not been established at Jerusalem nor for
Rupert Murdoch and Benjamin Netanyahu -- so far as I know.
Christ is yet to return so prophecy has not been sealed up.
Jerusalem still has lots of sin. And everlasting righteousness has not been established at Jerusalem nor for
Rupert Murdoch and Benjamin Netanyahu -- so far as I know.
Christ is yet to return so prophecy has not been sealed up.
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I think for some idiots it ran out in 1988 on the theory that 40 years was a generation & this generation shall not pass away until . . .
Then there were those who thunk it would end on May 21, 2011.
But the clock is still stuck on Week 69.
Now if a Roman prince made a 7 year covenant with Israel which allowed Israel to have its temple,
I would have to revise my eschatology. I don't intend to be here for that one.
Should we say that the Jews are winding the clock, getting that spring tight?
Hold on, while I look out the door at the sky.
There is this crown for loving His appearing, & I want it.
Then there were those who thunk it would end on May 21, 2011.
But the clock is still stuck on Week 69.
Now if a Roman prince made a 7 year covenant with Israel which allowed Israel to have its temple,
I would have to revise my eschatology. I don't intend to be here for that one.
Should we say that the Jews are winding the clock, getting that spring tight?
Hold on, while I look out the door at the sky.
There is this crown for loving His appearing, & I want it.
What part of Romans 9-11 supports your theology? Romans 9, Not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring... it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise [Christians] are counted as offspring. Romans 10, I have been found by those who did not seek me [gentiles]; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me. Romans 11, a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in [to Israel].
So, you're changing your claim that Israel is the clock to the temple mound is the clock? Israel has had possession of the temple mound since 1967, so the clock ran out in 1970. Or, do yo mean to say the Temple is the clock, and it's rebuilding isn't in sight. But, wait, regardless of whether Israel(sic) or the Temple is the clock both existed long enough in the first century for the clock to run out. Anyway you slice doctrine, it's nonsense.
So, you're changing your claim that Israel is the clock to the temple mound is the clock? Israel has had possession of the temple mound since 1967, so the clock ran out in 1970. Or, do yo mean to say the Temple is the clock, and it's rebuilding isn't in sight. But, wait, regardless of whether Israel(sic) or the Temple is the clock both existed long enough in the first century for the clock to run out. Anyway you slice doctrine, it's nonsense.
G
Re: AFTER indicates GAP; Time Scale Requires a Gap
The phrase 'to make an end of sins' has nothing to do with 70 A.D. or the Romans destroying the Temple. What the phrase is referring to was accomplished by the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ. It is not referring to a point in time when there would be no more sins committed ever again. It is referring to the [ 'spiritual' ] "process" by which sins were made-of-no-effect ( Romans 6:6;8:2 ) -- in the same sense of death being "swallowed up in victory" in 1 Corinthians 15:54.
To try to explain it another way --- the words 'to make an end of sins' are referring to the "setting up for the fall of" sins - the 'causation' of the ultimate "end of sins" by virtue of the "robbing sin of its power"...
Christ accomplished this in the middle of the 70th week.
The phrase 'to make an end of sins' has nothing to do with 70 A.D. or the Romans destroying the Temple. What the phrase is referring to was accomplished by the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ. It is not referring to a point in time when there would be no more sins committed ever again. It is referring to the [ 'spiritual' ] "process" by which sins were made-of-no-effect ( Romans 6:6;8:2 ) -- in the same sense of death being "swallowed up in victory" in 1 Corinthians 15:54.
To try to explain it another way --- the words 'to make an end of sins' are referring to the "setting up for the fall of" sins - the 'causation' of the ultimate "end of sins" by virtue of the "robbing sin of its power"...
Christ accomplished this in the middle of the 70th week.
G
In general, I actually agree with this.
However...
I am not necessarily expecting to be believed. However, I do know what I believe - and, just like everyone else, I am stating it - giving my point of view. It is up to others whether it makes sense - or, if they wish to believe it - or, study it further.
I often do not have the time to present a complete dissertation ... so, instead - I suggest enough of an idea - that may evoke a response of interest in a person who is truly interested in studying it further.
Exactly. And, the real proof comes from the Holy Spirit when we ourselves study the scriptures.
I am more than happy to try to convey my thoughts on a particular subject in more detail, if I have time and can make the effort. However, it is of no value if others will not take what I have said and "study the scriptures to see if it is so"...
However...
I am not necessarily expecting to be believed. However, I do know what I believe - and, just like everyone else, I am stating it - giving my point of view. It is up to others whether it makes sense - or, if they wish to believe it - or, study it further.
I often do not have the time to present a complete dissertation ... so, instead - I suggest enough of an idea - that may evoke a response of interest in a person who is truly interested in studying it further.
Exactly. And, the real proof comes from the Holy Spirit when we ourselves study the scriptures.
I am more than happy to try to convey my thoughts on a particular subject in more detail, if I have time and can make the effort. However, it is of no value if others will not take what I have said and "study the scriptures to see if it is so"...
G
Re: AFTER indicates GAP; Time Scale Requires a Gap
I hope this helps...
Based on the "sense and tense" of the word 'make', the phrase 'to make an end of sins' means 'to produce the means and method, and the desired result by the carrying out of the operation of that means and method, whereby ( or, by which ) [ 'sins' ] would be defeated / destroyed - thus, Christ defeated / destroyed [ 'sins' ] on the cross of Calvary -- thereby, "making an end of sins' - or, ensuring the [ ultimate ] "death" of [ 'sins' ] - or, bringing [ 'sins' ] to its end.
Without the cross of Calvary, [ 'sins' ] would "reign happily" forever...
However - the idea behind the words 'end of sins' is not chronologically-based ( as in, "no more sins committed after a certain point in time" ); rather, it is referring to the [ ultimate ] "death" of [ 'sins' ] ( in 'spiritual' terms ).
Does this make any sense?
The phrase 'to make an end of sins' has nothing to do with 70 A.D. or the Romans destroying the Temple. What the phrase is referring to was accomplished by the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ. It is not referring to a point in time when there would be no more sins committed ever again. It is referring to the [ 'spiritual' ] "process" by which sins were made-of-no-effect ( Romans 6:6;8:2 ) -- in the same sense of death being "swallowed up in victory" in 1 Corinthians 15:54.
To try to explain it another way --- the words 'to make an end of sins' are referring to the "setting up for the fall of" sins - the 'causation' of the ultimate "end of sins" by virtue of the "robbing sin of its power"...
Christ accomplished this in the middle of the 70th week.
To try to explain it another way --- the words 'to make an end of sins' are referring to the "setting up for the fall of" sins - the 'causation' of the ultimate "end of sins" by virtue of the "robbing sin of its power"...
Christ accomplished this in the middle of the 70th week.
Based on the "sense and tense" of the word 'make', the phrase 'to make an end of sins' means 'to produce the means and method, and the desired result by the carrying out of the operation of that means and method, whereby ( or, by which ) [ 'sins' ] would be defeated / destroyed - thus, Christ defeated / destroyed [ 'sins' ] on the cross of Calvary -- thereby, "making an end of sins' - or, ensuring the [ ultimate ] "death" of [ 'sins' ] - or, bringing [ 'sins' ] to its end.
Without the cross of Calvary, [ 'sins' ] would "reign happily" forever...
However - the idea behind the words 'end of sins' is not chronologically-based ( as in, "no more sins committed after a certain point in time" ); rather, it is referring to the [ ultimate ] "death" of [ 'sins' ] ( in 'spiritual' terms ).
Does this make any sense?
The passage should not be figuratively spiritualized, since the context is explicit and makes sense taken literally:
Seventy weeks are decreed
upon thy people [the Jews] and
upon thy holy city [Jerusalem]:
שבעים שבעים נחתך על עמך ועל עיר
Subject of sentence = Seventy weeks
Verb is a nifal perfect (passive in force) 3rd person masculine singular from the verb
נחתך
(חתך to decree ) Two prepositional phrases, adverbial in force, modify the verb:
1) upon thy people (the Jews),
2) upon thy holy city (Jerusalem)
to finish transgression, and to make an end of sins, and
to make reconciliation for iniquity, and
to bring in everlasting righteousness, and
to seal up vision and prophecy, and
to anoint the most holy.
These matters are fulfilled in the 70 sevens (weeks of years).
They have not yet been fulfilled.
Everlasting righteousness and an end of sins have not yet been worked upon the Jews & Jerusalem. Romans 9-11 speaks of a future when the Jews shall be saved as a nation.
Prophecy has not been sealed up;
Christ has not yet returned, but He shall.
Thomas Ice:
"1) TO FINISH THE TRANSGRESSION
The verb “to finish” looks to bring something to its culmination. It has the idea of “to close,shut, restrain.” Here it has the idea of “firmly restraining” the transgression, thus the specificidea of restraint of sin. “Examination of the use of this word shows that it means the forciblecessation of an activity. It always points to a complete stop, never to a mere hindrance.”18 Inthis context it is “the transgression” which is being firmly restrained. As I hope to demonstratethroughout this series, I believe that “finish” looks toward the completion of the 70 weeks at thesecond coming of Christ to set up His millennial kingdom.
The noun “transgression” in Hebrew is derived from the verbal root with the basic meaningof “rebel, revolt, transgress.” Transgression is the idea of going beyond a specific limit orboundary. “From all the definitions given we may be certain that it emphasizes the idea ofrebellion against God and disobedience to His will.”19 Gabriel has in mind, in verse 24, morethan just sin in general, but a specific sin since the definite article is attached to this word—“thetransgression.” “The article in Hebrew, as in Greek, is very definite and points clearly to someoutstanding thing or object,” notes David Cooper. “Thus the expression ‘the transgression’seems to indicate some specific, outstanding, national sin of the Chosen People.”20 Since theemphasis in this phrase is upon the finishing of Israel’s transgression, then this leads to theconclusion that it will occur at the second coming of Jesus, Israel’s Messiah.
Arnold Fruchtenbaum points out that “when speaking of the basis of the second coming of Christ thatthere are two facets to this basis: first, there must be the confession of Israel’s national sin(Lev. 26:40-42; Jer. 3:11-18; Hos. 5:15) . . .”21 The emphasis in this first goal is upon whenIsrael’s national sin—rejection of her Messiah—will be brought to an end. “This passage assumes, therefore,” notes Cooper, “that the whole nation repents and turns to God for mercyand forgiveness. Thus this first phrase implies the conversion of the nation. But what isassumed here is stated specifically in the third phrase.”22
2) TO MAKE AN END OF SIN
The second goal to be completed at the end of the 70 weeks is to make an end of sin. Inthe Hebrew, the word “to make an of” literally means “to shut, close, seal; to hide, to reveal asa secret,” and has the primary meaning of bringing a matter to a conclusion. Cooper explains:
This word was regularly used to indicate the closing of a letter or an officialdocument. When the scribe had finished his work, the king placed his royal sealupon it, thus showing that the communication was brought to a close and at thesame time giving it the official imprimatur.23
The Hebrew root word for “sin” is the most commonly used word for sin in the Hebrew OldTestament. Its core meaning is “to miss the mark, to be mistaken”. This is illustrated inJudges 20:16 where it says, “Out of all these people . . . each one could sling a stone at a hairand not miss.” This word itself conveys the basic meaning of “to miss, to be mistaken.”Interestingly, the only other uses of this word in Daniel occur in 9:20 (twice). Daniel speaks of“my sin and the sin of my people Israel.” Since this Hebrew word does not have the definitearticle as did “transgression” in the previous phrase, and since “sin” is plural, it seems refer tothe sins in general of the nation.
“The sealing up of sins, consequently, signifies their restraintunder safe custody.”24 “Since the cause of sin must be removed before the cure can beeffected, this expression assumes that at the time here foreseen the nation will have turned tothe Lord, and that by His Spirit a new heart and spirit will have been given to all the people.”25Clearly the scene only after the second coming followed by the installation of the millennialreign of Jesus the Messiah.
3) TO MAKE ATONEMENT FOR INIQUITY
The third infinitive “to make atonement for iniquity” is the translation of two Hebrew words.Taking the second one—iniquity—first, we see that it is one of the most common Hebrewwords for sin. It has the core idea of twisting or defacing something beyond its intendedpurpose. While speaking of a sinful act, this word, at the same time, looks to the fact that thereason why one commits iniquity is due to the perverted sinful nature inherited from Adam’sfall. According to The Oxford English Dictionary, “iniquity” means “the quality of beingunrighteous, or (more often) unrighteous action or conduct.” Its core meaning is “uneven,unequal, wrong, wicked.”26 Thus, the idea of iniquity is used here to speak of that mostaggressive nuance of sin flowing from human willful disobedience. This paints a picture of theworst kind of offense before God.
Such an offense requires a heroic response from God. Just such a provision is taught inthe verb “to make atonement.” Many are familiar with the word “atone” since it takes aprominent place in Israel’s Old Testament sacrificial system. It is used in Genesis 7:14 as both a noun and a verb and carries with it the idea of covering the wood of Noah’s Ark with pitch.When applied theologically to salvation, it communicates “the act functioned to cleanse, wipeaway, or purify objects contaminated by sin or uncleanness or make kôper on behalf ofpersons. This act of purgation served to propitiate Yahweh, thus enabling Him to dwell amongHis people to work out His purpose through them in the world.”27 The significance of this thirdphrase is noted by Cooper who says,
doubtless is a clear reference to the time when all Israel in genuine penitence shallacknowledge her departure from God and her national sin. At the same time eachindividual, of course, will acknowledge his own wrongs and all will call upon God forpardon. Then that which was foreshadowed by the annual atonement will become areality. At that time the nation will be brought back into fellowship with God andbecome a blessing in the earth.28
SUMMARY
The first three of the six goals in Daniel 9:24 have to do with the sin of Daniel’s people,Israel. The basis for dealing with Israel’s sin was provided during the first coming of Jesuswhen He died on the cross and rose again from the dead to pay for the sin of the Jews and forthe sins of the entire human race. However, the application of this wonderful provision for sinwill not be realized for Daniel’s people until the end of the 70 weeks. This will be fulfilled by thesecond coming of Messiah at the end of the tribulation period, which is yet future to our day.Leon Wood has an excellent summary of the first three goals. . . .
These clauses are prophetically important, because if they are descriptive of items thathave yet to be fulfilled, then the seventy weeks of Daniel have yet to be fulfilled. This meansthat the final (70th week) has to be future to our day since all of the purposes must be broughtto completion by the end of the prescribed time period. The first three clauses had to do with the sin issue in relation to Israel, while the second triad relate to God’s righteousness. I willnow examine prophetic purpose clauses four through six.
4) TO BRING IN EVERLASTING RIGHTEOUSNESS
The first of the three Hebrew words that compose the fourth purpose clause is the infinitivewhich is usually translated into English as “bring in.” This is a widely used Hebrew verb thathas the primary meaning of “come in, come, go in, or go.”30 Since this occurrence of the verbis in the causative Hebrew stem known as hiphil, it has the sense that “everlastingrighteousness” will be caused to come in.
The righteousness to be brought in is the same word Daniel uses during his initial prayer in9:7, where righteousness is said to belong exclusively to the Lord. David Cooper explains:
The English word, righteousness, primarily refers to the correct and proper motivesand dealings of man with man. God’s righteousness would, therefore, consist of Hiscorrect attitude and actions towards His creatures and His standards for them. . . . Italso carries that idea.31
Thus, the righteousness to be brought in will not be the twisted and volatile standards ofhuman invention. Instead, God’s righteousness will be a changeless measure of God’senviable code.
The Hebrew Lexicon of Brown, Driver, and Briggs (BDB) says that the Hebrew nounholamim has the core meaning of “long duration, antiquity, futurity,”32 The Lexicon specificallysays that the use in Daniel 9:24 is a plural intensive and thus renders it with the specific senseof “everlastingness, or eternity.”33 Cooper provides a literal translation of “righteousness of theages,” which captures its precise English meaning and notes that it
signifies that there are rules or formulas of attitude and conduct that are right and willbe reckoned as correct throughout all ages— past, present, and future. . .
When, however, the 490 years are completed and the Almighty brings in His greatregimé of righteousness, these eternal principles of justice and equity will be inforce; therefore, Gabriel said that at this future time God will bring in therighteousness of the ages34
I believe that this clause is a prophecy concerning the future time we know as the kingdomor millennial reign of Christ (see Rev. 20:1-9). This means that it is yet future to our own day.In contrast to Israel’s many failures of the past to live up to God’s righteous standards (cf. Dan.9:3-19), this time the Lord will provide everlasting righteousness for the nation. . . .
(cf. Isa. 1:26; 11:2-5; 32:17; Jer. 23:5-6; 33:15-18) that resolves the theological scandal (note Dan. 9:15-16) of the former age characterized by “the rebellion” (i.e., Israel’s rejection of the Messiah).Therefore, this age will be vindication of God’s promise to national Israel (Ezek.36:17-23) and a reversal of her condition and fortunes with respect to Messiah,hence a “messianic age” or the messianic kingdom.35
5) TO SEAL UP VISION AND PROPHECY
This triad of Hebrew words commences with the same infinitive used above in the secondclause which was “to make an end of sin.” The notion of this Hebrew word “seal up,” carriesthe idea of completion. In this context it is rendered “seal up” since the last thing done by awriter as he completes a letter or document is to seal up the finished product.
CharlesFeinberg expounds that this
refers to giving the seal of confirmation to Daniel and his vision by fulfilling his predictions. In Isaiah 8:16, this phrase meant that the prophecy was complete, andthe command was given to bind it up, to roll it up like a scroll and seal it. Again, inDaniel 8:26 the thought was to seal up the prophecy and make a permanent recordof it, so that when it is fulfilled the event can be compared to the prophecy to showhow completely the one corresponds to the other.36
The dual nouns, which are singular, are literally translated “vision” and “prophet.” Prophetis a concrete noun put for the abstract thing that the prophet produces, which is prophecy.Vision is a prophetic vehicle (cf. Dan. 7), while the human instrument is the prophet whoproduces the prophecy. Both are collective nouns for the sum total of all vision and prophecy.
Some think that this clause was completed during the first coming of Jesus.
Preterist KenGentry advocates this view:
The fifth result . . . has to do with the ministry of Christ on earth, which is introducedat His baptism: He comes “to seal up vision and prophecy.” By this is meant thatChrist fulfills (and thereby confirms) the prophecy (Luke 18:31; cf. Luke 24:44; Acts3:18).37
Gentry’s naked assertion is typical of those who advocate such a position, which is lacking anyexegetical support. Allan MacRae rightly concludes that there “is no Scriptural warrant forsaying that the functions of the Old Testament vision and prophecy came to an end at the timeof Christ’s first advent or that these terms do not also include visions and prophecies of theNew Testament.”38
. . .
This fifth prophetic declaration, like the previous can only refer to a future time when allprophecy will be fulfilled relating to Israel. There are yet hundreds of future prophecies relatingto Israel and Jerusalem that await a future fulfillment.
6) TO ANOINT THE MOST HOLY
The sixth and final prophetic clause begins with the Hebrew verb usually translated as“anoint” means to pour oil on something or someone.40 BDB says that it is used specifically inDaniel 9:24 to “anoint or consecrate to religious service.”41
This much debated phrase usually translated in English as “most holy” is a dual use of thesame Hebrew word. This is a common occurrence in Hebrew when the superlative of a nounis intended and such is the case here. The first use of the word is singular, while the secondone is plural and can literally be rendered “most holy,” or “a most holy place.” The Germancommentator C. F. Keil notes that the same exact phrase is used in Ezekiel 45:3 of a futuretemple and concludes that “the reference is to the anointing of a new sanctuary, temple, ormost holy place.”42
Specific reasons for this interpretation of the sixth clause is stated well byLeon Wood.
The phrase “holy of holies” (qodesh qadashîm) occurs, either with or without thearticle, thirty-nine times in the Old Testament, always in reference to the Tabernacleor Temple or to the holy articles used in them. When referring to the most holyplace, where the Ark was kept, the article is regularly used (e.g., Ex. 26:33), but it isnot when referring to the holy articles (e.g., Ex. 29:37) or to the whole Templecomplex (e.g., Ezek. 43:12). In view of these matters, it is highly likely that thephrase refers to the Temple also here, which, in view of the context, must be a futureTemple; and, since the phrase is used without the article, reference must be to acomplex of that Temple, rather than its most holy place."
MORE AT:
http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice-TheSeventyWeeksofDani.pdf
PRETERISM = ALICE-IN-WONDERLAND HERMENEUTICS
PRETERISM = ALICE-IN-WONDERLAND HERMENEUTICS
(trying to make Daniel 9 already fulfilled long ago)
Anyone who trusts the Lord Jesus (having Him properly defined) as Savior is a Christian ("whosoever believes") and my brother in Christ. Christians do not agree on eschatology (the future in prophecy). It does not bother me when a brother disagrees with me on eschatology (a-, pre-, mid-, Post-Toastie). It does bother me when someone gets on his high horse and attacks a Christian for disagreeing with Him on eschatology, as if that were heresy. And I have not seen that in this thread.
If you took Spanish, you know what the preterite tense is (past). Thus preterism tries to establish that what many regard as future prophecy is in fact already fulfilled long ago. Having said that, I confess that Preterism is Alice-in-Wonderland hermeneutics. There are apparently quite a variety of different Preterist positions. I discovered that fact by looking at the PreteristArchive site, a wonderful site with freely downloadable theological works. But a through-going preterist would deny that there is any future prophecy whatsoever to be fulfilled, denying even that a return of Christ is predicted (serious error).
IMHO:
By searching the internet, you can find a ton of material for & against preterism. But what it boils down to largely is trying to force the fulfillment of prophecy to the first century AD, particularly the cross and AD 70. This requires tortuous twisting of truth expressed in prophecy, allegorical interpretation. Probably much more will be learned on this topic by looking at internet sites for & against, instead of trying to settle this on a thread in this forum.
Rev 1 "Behold, he comes with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen."
This has not happened yet, nor:
But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them that fall asleep; that ye sorrow not, even as the rest, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; 17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be raptured [rapiemur, harpagesometha, caught up] in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. [end of 1 Th 4]
[Day of the Lord, the "tribulation," follows in 1 Thes 5].
The 70th Week of Daniel, by no stretch of imagination, has yet happened.
PRETERISM = ALICE-IN-WONDERLAND HERMENEUTICS
(trying to make Daniel 9 already fulfilled long ago)
Anyone who trusts the Lord Jesus (having Him properly defined) as Savior is a Christian ("whosoever believes") and my brother in Christ. Christians do not agree on eschatology (the future in prophecy). It does not bother me when a brother disagrees with me on eschatology (a-, pre-, mid-, Post-Toastie). It does bother me when someone gets on his high horse and attacks a Christian for disagreeing with Him on eschatology, as if that were heresy. And I have not seen that in this thread.
If you took Spanish, you know what the preterite tense is (past). Thus preterism tries to establish that what many regard as future prophecy is in fact already fulfilled long ago. Having said that, I confess that Preterism is Alice-in-Wonderland hermeneutics. There are apparently quite a variety of different Preterist positions. I discovered that fact by looking at the PreteristArchive site, a wonderful site with freely downloadable theological works. But a through-going preterist would deny that there is any future prophecy whatsoever to be fulfilled, denying even that a return of Christ is predicted (serious error).
IMHO:
By searching the internet, you can find a ton of material for & against preterism. But what it boils down to largely is trying to force the fulfillment of prophecy to the first century AD, particularly the cross and AD 70. This requires tortuous twisting of truth expressed in prophecy, allegorical interpretation. Probably much more will be learned on this topic by looking at internet sites for & against, instead of trying to settle this on a thread in this forum.
Rev 1 "Behold, he comes with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen."
This has not happened yet, nor:
But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them that fall asleep; that ye sorrow not, even as the rest, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; 17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be raptured [rapiemur, harpagesometha, caught up] in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. [end of 1 Th 4]
[Day of the Lord, the "tribulation," follows in 1 Thes 5].
The 70th Week of Daniel, by no stretch of imagination, has yet happened.
K
Re: PRETERISM = ALICE-IN-WONDERLAND HERMENEUTICS
Atwood we actually see eye to eye on something....lol
I have seen so many try to make bible prophecies from the OT that have not taken place yet, as have happened.
I have even seen some take Revelation as have already taken place to, or say is not literal.
There are a few prophecies from the OT testament that have not happened yet, and when one says something has happened I point out another that has to happen first. And say to them what about this, when did it get fulfilled ?
Their answer is usually I don't know, have to look into that, or it is not to be taken literally.
Atwood we actually see eye to eye on something....lol
I have seen so many try to make bible prophecies from the OT that have not taken place yet, as have happened.
I have even seen some take Revelation as have already taken place to, or say is not literal.
There are a few prophecies from the OT testament that have not happened yet, and when one says something has happened I point out another that has to happen first. And say to them what about this, when did it get fulfilled ?
Their answer is usually I don't know, have to look into that, or it is not to be taken literally.
Except that the 490-year clock ended 490 years after "the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem"...
The clock has not ended. Everlasting righteousness has not been established in Israel & Jerusalem.
"26 And
after 62 weeks
[GAP between 69th & 70th wk]
1. the anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing [the cross]; and
2. the people [Romans] of the prince that shall come [Beast] shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, [AD 70]
and even unto the end [that is a long time to the Consummation of the Age, Messiah's Return] shall be war;
desolations are determined.
[70th Week:]
And he [the Prince that shall come]
shall make a firm covenant with many for one week [70th wk];"
Does anyone imagine that war has ceased?
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Re: PRETERISM = ALICE-IN-WONDERLAND HERMENEUTICS
It says those who pierced Jesus will see Jesus come. They all died in the first century. Unless maybe you're one of those people who hold all Jews responsible for killing Jesus. Then, yes, in the spirit of Satan, there are a lot of Christ-killers, Jews, running around today. But, as for me, I'll stick to the context of Revelation's claim that it's referring to events "at hand", in that day.
"Earth" is from a Greek word that usually means the local region, not the whole planet. Hence, in a different context, the word might be translated like, the "land" of Israel. I'm not making this up, like your side makes up "soon" means thousands of years. So, all the tribes of that region will see Jesus come.
That just leaves what does seeing Jesus means. We see in the old testament "clouds" being used as reference to judgement. We also see even in Revelation itself Jesus threatening to "come" to judge, in judgement unrelated to any other judgement. For this last point, I'll save you the effort of finding a verse and I'll just give you one, Revelation 2:5b I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.. "I will come" clearly means judgment against one of the churches, not a personal appearance.
In fact, the reason the word "clouds" even appears in Revelation 1:7 is because Jesus won't make a literal appearance, so the symbology of clouds is used. Those who killed Jesus will face Jesus coming in judgement against them, which is exactly what happened in 70AD.
It says those who pierced Jesus will see Jesus come. They all died in the first century. Unless maybe you're one of those people who hold all Jews responsible for killing Jesus. Then, yes, in the spirit of Satan, there are a lot of Christ-killers, Jews, running around today. But, as for me, I'll stick to the context of Revelation's claim that it's referring to events "at hand", in that day.
"Earth" is from a Greek word that usually means the local region, not the whole planet. Hence, in a different context, the word might be translated like, the "land" of Israel. I'm not making this up, like your side makes up "soon" means thousands of years. So, all the tribes of that region will see Jesus come.
That just leaves what does seeing Jesus means. We see in the old testament "clouds" being used as reference to judgement. We also see even in Revelation itself Jesus threatening to "come" to judge, in judgement unrelated to any other judgement. For this last point, I'll save you the effort of finding a verse and I'll just give you one, Revelation 2:5b I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.. "I will come" clearly means judgment against one of the churches, not a personal appearance.
In fact, the reason the word "clouds" even appears in Revelation 1:7 is because Jesus won't make a literal appearance, so the symbology of clouds is used. Those who killed Jesus will face Jesus coming in judgement against them, which is exactly what happened in 70AD.
K
Re: PRETERISM = ALICE-IN-WONDERLAND HERMENEUTICS
What you say is true, but the coming of the Lord ( second coming in the scripture ) was not for those days.
The speaking of even those who pierced Him will see Him, is in regards to the fact that those who are alive and those who have died before hand will all see Him coming at His second coming.
All will be raised in the last days to face judgment, and those who pierced Him will see Him and only then realize the truth that He was and is the messiah.
What you say is true, but the coming of the Lord ( second coming in the scripture ) was not for those days.
The speaking of even those who pierced Him will see Him, is in regards to the fact that those who are alive and those who have died before hand will all see Him coming at His second coming.
All will be raised in the last days to face judgment, and those who pierced Him will see Him and only then realize the truth that He was and is the messiah.
Dispensationalists are date setters. You're just trying to distance yourself from their history of botched date settings. And, why are you trying to distance yourself? Because it makes Christians look like idiots. An earlier poster mentioned 1988. Hundreds of millions of books were sold by Dispensationalists, to ignorant Christians, pegging Jesus return at 1988 or sooner. The Late Great Planet Earth alone sold 35 million copies.
What is "imminent" any tie, maybe thousands of years from now? Or, are you setting a rough date," probably in the next few years or decades"?
There is no break in Daniel's 70 weeks. Not a word in scripture suggests there is a break. The only purpose of inserting a break is to insert false doctrine.
What is "imminent" any tie, maybe thousands of years from now? Or, are you setting a rough date," probably in the next few years or decades"?
There is no break in Daniel's 70 weeks. Not a word in scripture suggests there is a break. The only purpose of inserting a break is to insert false doctrine.
The idea of GAPS in prophecy is valid. Just for a practical example, Israel in AD 70 was expelled from its holy land, promised to the nation by the Lord. I suppose that well into the early 20th century, many (including amillenialists) scoffed at the idea of the Jews returning to the land, writing off the tons of prophecy about their return with the realization of the OT promises to them ever being fulfilled. Men (probably since Augustine) could spiritualize away the promises & try to transfer them to the Church.
But then Israel did start returning and by 1948 declared themselves a nation. Once has to be blind not to see that this is bringing to an end the gap in the history of Israel, gap implied in Romans 11 where by Israel will be grafted back in. There is clearly a gap in Israel's history since AD 70 to the 20th century.
Someone found 24 gaps in the Bible (or parentheses in prophecy)
Isaiah 61:1-2 would be one.
The Spirit of the Lord Jehovah is upon me; because Jehovah hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 to proclaim the year of Jehovah’s favor, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;There was to be a gap in time between the good tidings & the vengeance.
The Lord said:
“The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor. He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to preach the acceptable year of the Lord.’
he Lord stopped quoting before he got to the vengeance.
I have not read any blanket statement on "gaps" or their absence by Preterists, but one thing seems sure,
there are quite a variety of preterists with different POV.
Here are xxxxgaps xxxxwhich have been claimed:
Psalms 34:12-16 (ref in 1 Pet 3:10-12)
Psalms 118:22
Isaiah 9:6
Isaiah 53:10
Isaiah 54:7
Isaiah 61:2 (ref in Luke 4:18ff)
Lamentations 4:21,22
Daniel 9:26
Daniel 11:20,21
Hosea 2:13,14
Hosea 3:4,5
Amos 9:10,11 (Ref in Acts 15:13ff)
Micah 5:2,3
Habakkuk 2:13,14
Zephaniah 3:7,8
Zephaniah 9:9,10
Matthew 10:23
Matthew 12:20
Luke 1:1,32
Luke 19:42 (cf. Romans 11:25)
Luke 21:24
John 1:5,6 1
Peter 1:11
Revelation 12:5, 6(
One may also consider: Matthew 13:34, 35; Acts 1:5, 11:15-16. Ephesians 3:5, 9; Col 1:18; 1 Corinthians 12:13
These xxxx gaps xxxxare xxxx claimed xxx at xxxx
The Church Gaps | Faith Bible Ministries Blog
But then Israel did start returning and by 1948 declared themselves a nation. Once has to be blind not to see that this is bringing to an end the gap in the history of Israel, gap implied in Romans 11 where by Israel will be grafted back in. There is clearly a gap in Israel's history since AD 70 to the 20th century.
Someone found 24 gaps in the Bible (or parentheses in prophecy)
Isaiah 61:1-2 would be one.
The Spirit of the Lord Jehovah is upon me; because Jehovah hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 to proclaim the year of Jehovah’s favor, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;There was to be a gap in time between the good tidings & the vengeance.
The Lord said:
“The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor. He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to preach the acceptable year of the Lord.’
he Lord stopped quoting before he got to the vengeance.
I have not read any blanket statement on "gaps" or their absence by Preterists, but one thing seems sure,
there are quite a variety of preterists with different POV.
Here are xxxxgaps xxxxwhich have been claimed:
Psalms 34:12-16 (ref in 1 Pet 3:10-12)
Psalms 118:22
Isaiah 9:6
Isaiah 53:10
Isaiah 54:7
Isaiah 61:2 (ref in Luke 4:18ff)
Lamentations 4:21,22
Daniel 9:26
Daniel 11:20,21
Hosea 2:13,14
Hosea 3:4,5
Amos 9:10,11 (Ref in Acts 15:13ff)
Micah 5:2,3
Habakkuk 2:13,14
Zephaniah 3:7,8
Zephaniah 9:9,10
Matthew 10:23
Matthew 12:20
Luke 1:1,32
Luke 19:42 (cf. Romans 11:25)
Luke 21:24
John 1:5,6 1
Peter 1:11
Revelation 12:5, 6(
One may also consider: Matthew 13:34, 35; Acts 1:5, 11:15-16. Ephesians 3:5, 9; Col 1:18; 1 Corinthians 12:13
These xxxx gaps xxxxare xxxx claimed xxx at xxxx
The Church Gaps | Faith Bible Ministries Blog
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