Questions about salvation and the Holy Spirit

onlinebuddy · Aug 22, 2013

Q1) Are you saved? When? How do you know?
Ans:-Yes, 2000 years back, i know because the bible says Jesus Christ was crucified for sinners like me.

Q2) What must one do to be saved (if there is anything they must do)?
Ans:- There is nothing we shud/can do. We are the workmanship of God
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Q3) When did you receive the Holy Spirit?
Ans:- It was already there inside me sleeping, had to lighten it up by reading the word of God and by prayer

Q4) What is the evidence that you have received the Holy Spirit?
Ans:-I understand what i read in the holy bible. And i don't understand what men tries to teach me that comes from their own carnal mind

Q5) How were you baptized (immersion in water, sprinkling of water, fire, some other way) ?
Ans:- still in the process of baptism by the holy spirit and fire, by trying to overcome evil and sin like any other Christians.

Q6) If you weren't baptized in any of the above ways (Q5), why not?
Ans:-

Hi Sanashankar,
Greetings! Firstly, thanks for writing.

There are some things you wrote that I did not understand. You said that you were saved 2000 yrs ago. How can this be? Am I missing something?

12tribes1King · Aug 22, 2013

onlinebuddy said:

Q1) Are you saved? Yes When? April 2007 How do you know? The Holy Spirit is clearly distinguishable, when I first experienced the anointing, I jumped up and started dancing, having been filled with unmeasurable joy, I knew instantly that my sins were completely forgiven and the chains that bound me to sin and death have been broken down since the day I was anointed. The Holy Spirit does not ware off or go away, even in night visions (dreams in sleep) on my bed, it remains in me, guiding my path, teaching me truth, showing me hidden things of new and of old from the storehouse of the knowledge of God, teaching me to love my neighbors and brothers and sisters doing to them what I would want done to me, bringing me into remembrance of God's word. Ruling over my "good and "bad" conscience,conforming me into the inward image of my Savior, Redeemer,Friend,Master, and God, Yahoshua (Jesus) Christ, this Holy Spirit is the free gift of the Good Father, my God (Abba El oi).
Q2) What must one do to be saved (if there is anything they must do)? Read the Word,Repent, be clean (baptized), confess with your mouth the LORD Yahoshua (Jesus) Christ, believe in Yahoshua (Jesus) Christ, that God the Father raised him from the dead, ask God our good Father for the Holy Spirit.
John 3:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Also this....
Romans 10:8
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
And this....
Luke 11:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
[SUP]13 [/SUP]If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Q3) When did you receive the Holy Spirit? April 2007, see above
Q4) What is the evidence that you have received the Holy Spirit? see question 1, "How do you know" above, also you can read my first post "New member introduction" .... "The next day I woke up dancing and full of joy having received the holy spirit. Having in me a instant recall to the scriptures I had read in the bible 13 years prior to that night." Here is my testimony... http://christianchat.com/new-christian-chat-members-introduce-yourselves/69994-new-member-introduction.html#post1129841

Q5) How were you baptized (immersion in water, sprinkling of water, fire, some other way) ? With water when I was a baby, and with the Holy Spirit when I was 33 years old
Q6) If you weren't baptized in any of the above ways (Q5), why not? N/A

josh123 · Aug 22, 2013

yes i was redeemed,when i accepting christ in my life, how i know because my faith had works and someone faith must have work to show they have receive what they were waiting for i surrender my HEART, my thinking my own beliefs i surrendered everything to god and the holy spirit came right into me that moment and changed my life forever more i was blind but now i see! the truth has been revealed to me, by the grace of god was once a sinner but he changed me completely i'm not longer the same by the grace of god! everysingle born again christian must have a testimony of the works to back up that they were born again it's a supernatural event that can't even be explained with earthly explanation but your faith MUST HAVE WORKS THAT YOU RECEIVE THE HOLY GHOST OR NOTHING HAPPENED. i didn't even know anything about all of this but immediately i was changed in an instant can't even express with words what really happen.. but i felt the love, peace and burning fire of god come into my entire body.. just felt this incredible love like never before was incredible and like everysingle think in the bible is revealed to you.. you actually understand what it means like one of the first scripture i came across was this Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. [h=3]2 Corinthians 5:17[/h]
when i came across this it was so real.. like oh my goodness this had happen to me

Sanashankar · Aug 23, 2013

onlinebuddy said:

The bible clearly tells us that we are saved not because of our works but by the grace of God. Grace of God is a gift of God.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

So then how can we say, we are saved when "WE" accepted Jesus Christ??? When "WE" took baptism?? If we are accepting Jesus as lord, or if we are doing anything good, it is because of God

Phl 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

God worketh in us.

Now i believe Jesus Christ saved us 2000 years back when he was crucified for our sins. He came to the worl to take away our sins. The sins of the generation before him, and the generation after him.
When Christ died on the tree of crucifixion, he was performing something for others. The sins of the whole world were imputed to him and he died on the tree of crucifixion in the place of mankind.

1C 15:3...how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

We are not perfect, we are not righteous. But we are seen righteous and perfect in the eyes of God through his son Jesus Christ. We were saved when he imputed our sin on him and died on the cross. He was punished for the sins of the whole world. He "died" because the wage of sin (our sin) is death

Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death

Otherwise how a righteous Jesus Christ who did not sin in his life wud die. He died because he imputed our sins on him. We are saved because of Jesus Christ. And he did the work 2000 years ago

Hope this is clear

onlinebuddy · Aug 23, 2013

Sanashankar said:

The bible clearly tells us that we are saved not because of our works but by the grace of God. Grace of God is a gift of God.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

So then how can we say, we are saved when "WE" accepted Jesus Christ??? When "WE" took baptism?? If we are accepting Jesus as lord, or if we are doing anything good, it is because of God

Phl 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

God worketh in us.

Now i believe Jesus Christ saved us 2000 years back when he was crucified for our sins. He came to the worl to take away our sins. The sins of the generation before him, and the generation after him.
When Christ died on the tree of crucifixion, he was performing something for others. The sins of the whole world were imputed to him and he died on the tree of crucifixion in the place of mankind.

1C 15:3...how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

We are not perfect, we are not righteous. But we are seen righteous and perfect in the eyes of God through his son Jesus Christ. We were saved when he imputed our sin on him and died on the cross. He was punished for the sins of the whole world. He "died" because the wage of sin (our sin) is death

Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death

Otherwise how a righteous Jesus Christ who did not sin in his life wud die. He died because he imputed our sins on him. We are saved because of Jesus Christ. And he did the work 2000 years ago

Hope this is clear

Hi Sana,
Thanks for your reply.
I agree with all the points you are making. I also agree that he did and completed the work of redemption for all mankind 2000 years ago.
Does this mean that all mankind (every single human being that lived before and after Jesus) was AUTOMATICALLY saved 2000 years ago?

Sanashankar · Aug 23, 2013

onlinebuddy said:

We are only having legal position now brother. We are still in the flesh and we sin alot. According to the scriptures we were legally present with Christ when he came into the earth.

We are legally circumcised when Jesus was circumcised.
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

We are baptized legally, when Jesus Christ baptized
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

We are crucified legally when Jesus was crucified.
Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

We resurrected with him legally when he resurrected from dead
Col 2:12-13 ...wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses
Col 3:1 . If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

We all are sitting on the right hand side of God legally
Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus

Father reckons Jesus Christ as substitute for all Christians before the foundation and for all future.Father now looks on Christians as already having kept the commandments perfectly (because Jesus did it for us).

Though we are legally accepted by God, we still commit sin, and God is our Father who chastise us for our mistakes. He chastise us to become holy and be partakers of his holiness.

Hb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened [us] after their own pleasure; but he for [our] profit, that [we] might be partakers of his holiness.

Lake of fire is for the purging of the sin, sinful nature in us, purify us and to make us perfect. To correct us. There is a good purpose. So once those who commited sin is purged and purified they enters into the presence of God. Because they are partakers of his holiness.

onlinebuddy · Aug 23, 2013

Sana,
What do you mean by "legal position?" Sorry, but these terms are new to me. Is this term mentioned in the Bible somewhere? If not, can you please explain?

"We" means believers, right? So all the above verses are for believers, right?

Sorry for all the questions. Just trying to understand your doctrine. Pls answer when you have the time. Also, I will log off in a while. and return at night.

Thanks once again!

Sanashankar · Aug 23, 2013

onlinebuddy said:

Lagal position can be that which is offered/ promised to u, but u will get it only after a point of time. Eternal life is promised to us, but we cant enjoy it now, because we are in the flesh. But that gift from God, is for sure. How we know we will get it???because God has given earnest which is the holy spirit

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Strongs
G728 arrhabon ar-hrab-ohn'
a pledge, i.e. part of the purchase-money or property given in advance as security for the rest.

Same way "in the eyes of God" we are perfect. That position we got because of Jesus Christ.Paul knew it that is why he said, we were crucified, baptized, circumcised etc with Jesus Christ. There is no gentiles, no Jews. but all are one in Christ.

Right. "we" are considered to be believers. But the "they" in the bible will be made perfect by "we"

Hb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us(i.e believers), that they ( non- believers and old testament people who did not receive the promise)without us should not be made perfect

Which makes this verse more clear

1C 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you...

The promise is already fulfilled by Christ. The position is already given to the "whole world". How the non believers get it. It is a process which includes the work of the saints in the future. And the work is not of thier own, but God works in the saints

onlinebuddy · Aug 23, 2013

Thanks sister Sana. I will get back later. Got to go now. God bless you!

Sanashankar · Aug 23, 2013

I hope i did not confuse you. I believe in the salvation of "the whole world". Judgment doesn't mean making somebody stand and measure their sins and righteousness. Judgment is a process of chastisment of God. Thru judgment sinners are purified and made perfect.

The above thread will be blasphemy and nonsense for people who believe in literal hell fire and complete condemnation of the sinners. nI do not believe in that. I believe in God's love for all believers and non believers. Saying that, shastisment is their for the non believers till they accept Jesus Christ

Nowhere in the bible it says that God will not give a second chance for the sinners after death. That doctrine has come to Christianity ( no scripture) from other religions.

onlinebuddy · Aug 23, 2013

Sanashankar said:

I now understand what you mean by "legal position." Thanks for clarifying that.

I agree with you that "us" means believers. However, in my understanding, "they" means the OT believers who did the Will of God. "They" refers to all the saints of the OT whose names are written Hebrews 11 (and the like).
How could "they" refer to unbelievers? Would appreciate some clarification on this.

Also, I do not understand what you mean by the below mentioned words:

onlinebuddy · Aug 23, 2013

Sanashankar said:

In my opinion, Eph 2:8 means the following:-
=>nothing we do can save us
=>we are incapable of saving ourselves
=>we are saved BY GRACE that came as a result of Christ's redemptive work done 2000 years ago
=>grace was given 2000 years ago, but we are given legal position the moment we believe
=>therefore we cannot take credit for our salvation even though we have believed and repented and been baptized
=>all credit goes to God
=>not everyone is included in Christ
=>salvation is a gift to those who believe (and not to everyone)
=> we must RECEIVE that gift or else we cannot be included in Christ
=>our receiving and our believing and our baptism are acts of accepting that gift, and the credit off course goes to Christ, and not us
=>although Christ completed the work of redemption 2000 years ago, all mankind (believers+unbelievers) were not automatically included in Christ 2000 years ago
=>we are included in Christ (saved and given legal position)the moment we respond to that gift of salvation

NiceneCreed · Aug 23, 2013

This is a message for all who read my initial post in this thread:

I would like to apologize for saying baptism is not necessary. I should have specified I do not feel water baptism is necessary, but I do in fact believe one must be baptized of the Spirit. Forgive me.

onlinebuddy · Aug 23, 2013

We are legally circumcised when Jesus was circumcised.
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Click to expand...

I would beg to differ from your interpretation of this passage.
Nowhere is the "circumcision of Jesus" referred to in this passage. Even if it is referred to, it is not implied that we were spiritually circumcised when Jesus was physically circumcised. How can that be? We weren't even born at that time. So how can we be circumcised before we were born?

The CONTEXT of this Passage tells us that had Paul had never met the Colossians face to face. Therefore he is concerned that the Gentile believers were being looked down upon because they weren't circumcised in the flesh, the way the Jews were. Paul is telling them that circumcision that is done by hands (as in the Jewish ordinance) is not required. Physical circumcision is not required because those Gentiles (whom we presume had believed, repented and were baptised) were already circumcised in the heart (not in the flesh) when they were convicted of the sins of the flesh and repented.

The Law required CUTTING OFF OF THE FLESH , which is the physical circumcision -not required
Grace requires CUTTING OFF OF THE SINS of the flesh, which is the spiritual circumcision- required
So although we are saved by grace and not by our own effort, we cannot take our Christians lives for granted. We must make every effort to cut away the sin from our lives.

Again, I beg to differ. Nowhere in this verse is Christ's baptism mentioned.

"Buried with him in baptism" means that we were buried with him at the time of OUR baptism (when WE were baptized).

This verse is not telling us that when Christ was baptized, we were baptized too. How can that be? We weren't even born at that time. So how can we be baptized before we were born?

This verse is telling us that when we were baptized (buried with him in our baptism) it is SYMBOLIC of being buried with Christ (in the tomb, remember that Christ wasn't buried in the waters of the Jordan). So the word "buried" is referring to Christ being buried in the tomb and not to his baptism.

"wherein also ye are risen with [him]" Here "risen" means risen from the dead. Jesus hadn't risen from the dead during his baptism. So the context is not about Jesus' baptism, but about Jesus actual death on the cross, being buried in the tomb and being risen from the dead. Similarly, when we come out of the baptismal waters, it is SYMBOLIC of the rising of Christ from the dead and unto a new life. Similarly, we rise unto a new life and are given the earnest of the Holy Spirit as a deposit (guarantee) till the time we actually acquire possession of eternal life.

onlinebuddy · Aug 23, 2013

Sanashankar said:

HI Sana, I'm just trying to understand your interpretation, because I understand differently.

Are you saying that the whole world (all humans that lived on earth) will be saved? Where in the Bible does it say this?

When you say sinners, are you talking about the whole world? Are you saying that the whole world (all humans that lived on earth) would be made perfect through chastisement? Where in the Bible does it say this?

Jesus was the one who talked about hell the most, wasn't he?

Are you saying that all nonbelievers will be chastised till the accept Christ? So are you saying that the whole world (all humans that lived on earth) would be made to accept Christ through the process of chastisement? Where in the Bible does it say this? My Bible tells me that God chastises those who he accepts as his sons, and not everyone.

Where in the Bible does it say that God gives a second chance to sinners after death? Where in the Bible does it say this?

I beg to differ again. Other religions tell us that there IS a second chance after death (in the next cycle of life). Christianity tells us that there is one life, one death and then judgement (not chastisement). There is a scripture: Heb 9:27

Judgement is not for Christians, but for those who haven't accepted Christ. Christians have a legal position, as you have mentioned.

Sanashankar · Aug 24, 2013

Ok brother , so u do not believe in the salvation of the whole world, but only those who accepts Jesus Christ

My question wud be , " How can u accept Jesus Christ when it is not ur work that gives u salvation but the grace of God?
Accepting Jesus Christ is a work u voluntarily do, rite? But is it u who wills to do it, or is it God who "makes" u do it?

Phl 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure

Now do u have any role in accepting God, or is it God who makes you do it? Now how can we say salvation is a gift from God if "we" believe. What is the role of "we" in this, when bible says it is god who does everything. See these verse
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

2C 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency [is] of God;

Jn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:

Ro 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? (he created both)

Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? [then] may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil. (some are born/ created to do evil, how will they change, if God has created them to do evil?)

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love (before we were even born, how can we say then we are saved because we accepted jesus. it is already decided)

Pr 16:4 . The LORD hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. (it is God who has created the wicked, the way he/she is)

Ac 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. (ordained by whom?by GOD)

And many more verses shows that it is not "we" who believes God, but God who makes us believe. u mentioned

How can it be, when bible says , it is God who works in u to do his will and good pleasure. Those who are created to do evil, will in no way do good. There is a plan behind it. How are we mortals with such small brain going to understand that

Sanashankar · Aug 24, 2013

And abt universal salvation, there are a lot of verses too. But the modern churches has done the best to oppose it by twisting and giving a new meaning to it. They say "ALL" means not all, ordained means not predestined, whole world means not whole world, but those who believes etc.
If u were a child and have not gone to a church, and u read the bible it wud be more clear to u. because u will consider "all" as "all ", whole world as whole world.

Srongs
G3650 whole holos hol'-os
"whole" or "all", i.e. complete (in extent, amount, time or degree), especially (neuter) as noun or adverb.

G3956 all pas pas
all, any, every, the whole.

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Ro 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: (so many Israelites did without accepting Jesus Christ)

1Jn 4:14 . And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [to be] the Saviour of the world.

Jn 4:42 : for we have heard [him] ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

2Pt 3:9 . The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Jn 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

Jesus said:

Jn 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.

He did not say "those who believes" or those who are "righteous". he said "all". Now is that verse not enuf toprove God has mercy over all. and salvation will be given to all.

Sanashankar · Aug 24, 2013

Some verses in the bible says that "saints" are gonna judge the world

1C 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

Hb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us (saints/ believers), that they without us should not be made perfect. [This verse tells that they (those who did not receive the promise) will be "MADE PERFECT" by the saints.When is this going to happen. Few verses above this says abt the old testament people. When are they going to be made perfect?]

He spoke abt "Gehenna", not literal hell fire.

G1067 geena gheh'-en-nah
of Hebrew origin (H1516 and H2011);
valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem,

That's the place where the bodies of the dead were buried, it is not a fire well somewhere in spiritual place, or invisible place. Foolish Israel began sacrificing her children in fire to this pagan god.l". It is a cursed place. People later started burning the dead bodies there.

TOPHET AND MOLECH IN HINNOM

We shud always understand that Jesus spoke in parables most of the time. Revelation is the "revelation of Jesus Christ". That is why it is full of symbols and signs. Preachers and church people takes "7 horns, lambs, voice that john saw, all things" as symbols, but only lake of fire literal.

1C 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all

God is love, there is no chance of God throwing his own creation in a burning hell just to torture, in the name of "justice". Nobody including me asked God to create us, or to put us in a place we are rite now. But it was God's plan. We have something called testosterone and oestrogen in our body. Lust is driven by those hormones. Who put it inside us? Why did not God create us without it? 3/4 of the world is sinners. Only a few are saved. God created billions of people just to put them in hell. I don't think so.

Sanashankar · Aug 24, 2013

See u later, got to go. God bless u

onlinebuddy · Aug 24, 2013

Thanks sister Sana for your time. Extremely busy this morning. I'll read and get back tonight.

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