Difference between God and Jesus

[josh123]

i'm not too familiar with all of the isms or ist* but all i can say is the natural eye doesn't and won't understand the bible without the holy spirit everything will be in parable to them, that is why people just think with the carnal mind and bring up their own theologies 10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
[h=3]Matthew 13:10-11[/h]
that is why we have all of these isms and ist the carnal mind making it's own understanding about the scriptures

 

[silas42]

i'm not too familiar with all of the isms or ist* but all i can say is the natural eye doesn't and won't understand the bible without the holy spirit everything will be in parable to them, that is why people just think with the carnal mind and bring up their own theologies 10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Matthew 13:10-11


that is why we have all of these isms and ist the carnal mind making it's own understanding about the scriptures

I am left with the impression there isn't that much difference in essence between anyone's opinions here, but there seem to be many different ways to explain/express pretty much the same thing. It seems titles matter more to some Trinitarians on the internet than the essence of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, though this is not the case in the churches.

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

FromtheBible, have a lot to say in regards to Colossians 1.15. To be quite honest, the arguments for the interpretation that you have espoused are really quite weak. I'll be engaging most of your arguments when I get home in several hours. Lots!

I got hung up at work for longer than I had intended. Hopefully I should be able to get to this here in the next day.

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

I am left with the impression there isn't that much difference in essence between anyone's opinions here, but there seem to be many different ways to explain/express pretty much the same thing. It seems titles matter more to some Trinitarians on the internet than the essence of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, though this is not the case in the churches.

Divine titles are important, but as I've argued in the past, the authors have a lot more to say on the subject than just throwing Divine titles around. Equality of essence is extremely important (John 1.1c, Hebrews 1.3, Philippians 2.6, Colossians 2.9), but you can't exactly expect everyone on the internet to be a theologian, much less that are up to date with academia. A few things to consider as well are:

(1) The NT authors utilize Septuagint-YHWH passages of Christ (Hebrews 1.10-12 [Psalm 102.25 LXX]; 1 Peter 2.3 [Psalm 33.9 LXX]; 1 Peter 3.14-15 [Isaiah 8.12-13 LXX]; Romans 10.9-13 [Joel 2.32]; Philippians 2.10 [Isaiah 45.23])


​

(2) Communal cultic (and I am not using the term "cultic" negatively here) worship of Christ in the early Christian community -- prayer (John 14.14; 2 Corinthians 12.8-9), hymnic practices (Philippians 2), the Lord's Supper, doxologies to Christ (1 Peter 3.8)


​

(3) Christ is associated with creation in sovereign role, seated on the Divine throne; and is the Eschatological Judge.


​

(4) Christ’s relation to the Holy Spirit. Throughout the Pauline corpus (Romans 8.9-10; Philippians 1.19; Galatians 4.6), the testimony of Peter (1 Peter 1.10-11), as well as those of Luke as they are found in the Book of Acts (Acts 16.1-8), the “Spirit of Christ,” and “Spirit of God” are used synonymously, and/or interchangeably of one another, invariably teaching the complete, and total Deity of Christ.​

Additionally, the NT authors describe Christ’s relationship to the Holy Spirit in terms analogous to those previously used to picture God's relationship to the Spirit. In the Hebrew Scriptures, the Spirit is presented as an extension of God's personality and activity. The Spirit is God's "hand" (Ezek. 3.14; 8.1-3; 37.1) and His "breath" (Job 33.4; 34.14), His power and presence (Ps. 139.7). When the Spirit departed from Saul (1 Sam. 16.14), that meant that God had departed from him (1 Sam. 18.12). Similarly, in the New Testament, Jesus is described as being in and with those who are led by the Spirit (Matt. 18.20; John 14.23).

When Peter speaks of Christ as the One who has poured out the Spirit in the events of Pentecost (Acts 2.33), this means that Christ, exalted to God’s right hand, is Lord of the Spirit, and the Spirit is His executive power. The Spirit is related to Christ just as the Spirit has been related to God.

The significance of this is quite remarkable in light of Second Temple Judaism.

​

Of course, more can and will be said, but for the time being this will suffice. I will unveil several other points here in the next day or so when I have the time to do so.

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

Divine titles are important, but as I've argued in the past, the authors have a lot more to say on the subject than just throwing Divine titles around. Equality of essence is extremely important (John 1.1c, Hebrews 1.3, Philippians 2.6, Colossians 2.9), but you can't exactly expect everyone on the internet to be a theologian, much less that are up to date with academia. A few things to consider as well are:

(1) The NT authors utilize Septuagint-YHWH passages of Christ (Hebrews 1.10-12 [Psalm 102.25 LXX]; 1 Peter 2.3 [Psalm 33.9 LXX]; 1 Peter 3.14-15 [Isaiah 8.12-13 LXX]; Romans 10.9-13 [Joel 2.32]; Philippians 2.10 [Isaiah 45.23])


​

(2) Communal cultic (and I am not using the term "cultic" negatively here) worship of Christ in the early Christian community -- prayer (John 14.14; 2 Corinthians 12.8-9), hymnic practices (Philippians 2), the Lord's Supper, doxologies to Christ (1 Peter 3.8)


​

(3) Christ is associated with creation in sovereign role, seated on the Divine throne; and is the Eschatological Judge.


​

(4) Christ’s relation to the Holy Spirit. Throughout the Pauline corpus (Romans 8.9-10; Philippians 1.19; Galatians 4.6), the testimony of Peter (1 Peter 1.10-11), as well as those of Luke as they are found in the Book of Acts (Acts 16.1-8), the “Spirit of Christ,” and “Spirit of God” are used synonymously, and/or interchangeably of one another, invariably teaching the complete, and total Deity of Christ.​

Additionally, the NT authors describe Christ’s relationship to the Holy Spirit in terms analogous to those previously used to picture God's relationship to the Spirit. In the Hebrew Scriptures, the Spirit is presented as an extension of God's personality and activity. The Spirit is God's "hand" (Ezek. 3.14; 8.1-3; 37.1) and His "breath" (Job 33.4; 34.14), His power and presence (Ps. 139.7). When the Spirit departed from Saul (1 Sam. 16.14), that meant that God had departed from him (1 Sam. 18.12). Similarly, in the New Testament, Jesus is described as being in and with those who are led by the Spirit (Matt. 18.20; John 14.23).

When Peter speaks of Christ as the One who has poured out the Spirit in the events of Pentecost (Acts 2.33), this means that Christ, exalted to God’s right hand, is Lord of the Spirit, and the Spirit is His executive power. The Spirit is related to Christ just as the Spirit has been related to God.

The significance of this is quite remarkable in light of Second Temple Judaism.

​

Of course, more can and will be said, but for the time being this will suffice. I will unveil several other points here in the next day or so when I have the time to do so.

According to Jewish understanding it is YHWH who would “in the last days… pour out my Spirit on all flesh” (Acts 2.17-21 [c.f. Joel 2.28-32]). Ironically enough, Christ is the one who poured our the Spirit at Pentecost (Acts 2.33), and even in this very sermon, Peter attributes the same verbiage used of YHWH to Christ, “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

 

[phil36]

Actually I told a Trinitarian minister people on the internet were saying if you believe Jesus is the Son of God, but not God Himself you can't be saved with that belief, he shook his head and laughed

I am sure he did, however, did you ask him what is actually being said and not your twisting of words. Did you ask him if you DENY Jesus is God can that same person be saved.

I an sure your minister would not be laughing then. Get the context right silas.

 

[storm09]

God the FATHER
God the SON
God the HOLY SPIRIT

God is three in one! Jesus said (somewhere in the scriptures lol) "I and the Father are one"
* We are also told to worship God in spirit for He is SPIRIT : Genesis chapter 1 - "and the SPIRIT of God was moving across the waters of the deep".

Surely the work of God the Father, Son & Holy Spirit has been going on since the beginning of creation and will remain till the end.

I think we ought to be careful as to what we say about whether God the FATHER and God the SON are equal. They are ONE! , God Loves us and even though we are lower than His footstool He is even longing for a place to live which is us (temples). Even during our sin CHRIST died for us, so who are we to even think about whether CHRIST is God? when we are not even worthy to carry his sandals.

 

[silas42]

I am sure he did, however, did you ask him what is actually being said and not your twisting of words. Did you ask him if you DENY Jesus is God can that same person be saved.

I an sure your minister would not be laughing then. Get the context right silas.

Oh I did Phil. You have plainly stated on this website if a person believes Jesus is the Son of God but not God Himself they cannot be saved with that belief.
I told the minister word for word that is what is being stated on the internet, and like I said, he shook his head and laughed

 

[storm09]

Its natural to think carnal thoughts coz we were born in to sin once we appeared on this earth. Since Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruitl sin entered the world because of their disobediance. Therefore later generations suffer from sin. You say the natural eye wont understand anything from the bible? well that's because

* Bible is for your Spirit. The flesh (natural body) is always resisting the things of the Spirit and the Spirit also does not want to take part with the flesh

* you well actually us all are born in to sin, in other words it is natural and in our nature to think carnal thoughts, steal, lie, swear, fornicate, my friend for it is in our nature! we are born and we are naughty by nature. There is a story where Jesus tells a well educated man named Nicodemus to be "born again" in which Nicodemus replies "how can that be? It is impossible to go back in to my mother womb, with a shock and in disappointment Jesus says "you fool I meant "born of the Spirit".

Darling the reason why people don't really understand the bible and its ways is because, the bible is for your spirit/soul, it teaches you how to fight spiritually for we do not wrestle against flesh and blood but by principalities of the dark and spiritual enemies. your (natural eye) flesh is resisting the spirit and so is the spirit in return.

One way to allow the spirit to win in to fast. FLESH DECREASES (literally lmbo), SPIRIT INCREASES

 

[phil36]

Oh I did Phil. You have plainly stated on this website if a person believes Jesus is the Son of God but not God Himself they cannot be saved with that belief.
I told the minister word for word that is what is being stated on the internet, and like I said, he shook his head and laughed

Nope I never said they cannot be saved.. again your twisting. 1John 5 is a lovely truth.

I suggest you re read what I have said .

Let me ask you one simple question and then go ask the minster your saying you asked:

Can someone who proclaims to be a Christian, deny who Christ says he is ?

 

[silas42]

if a person believes Jesus is the Son of God but not God Himself they cannot be saved with that belief.

Nope I never said they cannot be saved.. again your twisting.

You have to ask them what do they mean by son of God?

It's quite simple, have you taken them from Genesis to revelation, like that of the Emmaus road?

I understand the scope Kenisyes, and if they believe that Jesus was just the son of God and not God himself then they are not Christian,(Phil on another thread)

So Phil, now I am confused. On an earlier thread you wrote,
'if a person believes Jesus is the Son of God but not God Himself they are not Christian'

now you say you have not said such a belief means a person cannot be saved.

I take it then you do not believe a person has to be a Christian to be saved

 

[phil36]

You have to ask them what do they mean by son of God?

It's quite simple, have you taken them from Genesis to revelation, like that of the Emmaus road?

I understand the scope Kenisyes, and if they believe that Jesus was just the son of God and not God himself then they are not Christian,(Phil on another thread)

So Phil, now I am confused. On an earlier thread you wrote,
'if a person believes Jesus is the Son of God but not God Himself they are not Christian'

now you say you have not said such a belief means a person cannot be saved.

I take it then you do not believe a person has to be a Christian to be saved

Hi Silas,

Again twisting what I have said.

I affirm 1 John 5 so we can start there. I have never said that anyone needs to fully understand the Godhead to be saved, I have said and still hold that if you say you are a Christian and deny who Jesus is the your not Christian. Why do I say that? because your are denying who the Father is, you are denying who Jesus is, and denying who the Holy Spirit is. in effect you are worshipping a false God.

As I have said a few time s now, and anyone reading can go back and check my posts. God can save anyone no matter what their belief is.. however, you have o believe who Jesus is.

Now for some reason you did not answer the question which strengthens my case about you..standing in the sidelines causing trouble .


Here is the question again:

Can someone who proclaims to be a Christian, deny who Christ says he is ?

 

[silas42]

Hi Silas,

Again twisting what I have said.

I affirm 1 John 5 so we can start there. I have never said that anyone needs to fully understand the Godhead to be saved, I have said and still hold that if you say you are a Christian and deny who Jesus is the your not Christian. Why do I say that? because your are denying who the Father is, you are denying who Jesus is, and denying who the Holy Spirit is. in effect you are worshipping a false God.

As I have said a few time s now, and anyone reading can go back and check my posts. God can save anyone no matter what their belief is.. however, you have o believe who Jesus is.

Now for some reason you did not answer the question which strengthens my case about you..standing in the sidelines causing trouble .


Here is the question again:

Can someone who proclaims to be a Christian, deny who Christ says he is ?

You are in a hopeless mess aren't you
You have plainly stated on this website

if they believe that Jesus was just the son of God and not God himself then they are not Christian,(Phil on another thread)

Now on this thread when it is put to you, you have said if a person believes Jesus is the son of God but not God Himself they cannot be saved, you reply

Nope I never said they cannot be saved.. again your twisting.

So the only answer is, you must believe a non Christian can be saved.

But as with others, when you can't reply to the obvious all we get is evasion. I'm sorry Phil, but you typify the absurdity of a few on websites like these, I repeat, you are in a hopeless mess and you're frantically trying to get out of it be deflection and evasion
A perfect example of being consumed by theology/studying without being led of the Spirit, relying instead on your natural acadamia

 

[phil36]

You are in a hopeless mess aren't you
You have plainly stated on this website

if they believe that Jesus was just the son of God and not God himself then they are not Christian,(Phil on another thread)


Now on this thread when it is put to you, you have said if a person believes Jesus is the son of God but not God Himself they cannot be saved, you reply

Nope I never said they cannot be saved.. again your twisting.

So the only answer is, you must believe a non Christian can be saved.

But as with others, when you can't reply to the obvious all we get is evasion. I'm sorry Phil, but you typify the absurdity of a few on websites like these, I repeat, you are in a hopeless mess and you're frantically trying to get out of it be deflection and evasion

Hi silas,

And if you do not believe who Jesus says he is then you are worshipping a false god? iThat does not mean that for the sinner to be born again needs to fully understand the Godhead..but they will not deny it if saved

rather than just be a sideline heckler could you answer the question:

Can someone who proclaims to be a Christian, deny who Christ says he is ?

 

[silas42]

Hi silas,

And if you do not believe who Jesus says he is then you are worshipping a false god? iThat does not mean that for the sinner to be born again needs to fully understand the Godhead..but they will not deny it if saved

rather than just be a sideline heckler could you answer the question:

Can someone who proclaims to be a Christian, deny who Christ says he is ?

Come on now, we'd all like to know what you believe Phil.

You have stated if people believe Jesus is the Son of God but not God Himself they cannot be a Christian
That's not twisting your words, just copying them from another thread

Now I'm gonna take out a Christian and replace it with saved, and ask you if you stand by the words OK?

If people believe Jesus is the Son of God but not God himself they cannot be saved

Do you agree with the new wording?
If you don't there's only one possible answer

You don't believe a person has to be a Christian to be saved, no more to say

 

[phil36]

Hi silas,

If you are a Christian you cannot deny who Jesus is. That's what I have always said. If anyone wants to read all of my posts they will see this.

Now can you answer the question it is a simple question and I am not sure why you are avoiding..MMmm but maybe I do?

Can someone who proclaims to be a Christian, deny who Christ says he is ?

 

[silas42]

Hi silas,

If you are a Christian you cannot deny who Jesus is. That's what I have always said. If anyone wants to read all of my posts they will see this.

Now can you answer the question it is a simple question and I am not sure why you are avoiding..MMmm but maybe I do?

Can someone who proclaims to be a Christian, deny who Christ says he is ?

All that studying and learning the Greek hasn't done you an ounce of good where it matters has it. You can't even respond now to who a person must believe Jesus to be to inherit eternal life, you have to frantically backpeddle and evade. And this I am afraid is the result for the would be scholar and theologian who makes a god out of studying, is proiud of what they think they know for they have relied on themselves to learn, not the Holy Spirit
You have not the confidence now to plainly answer the most fundamental belief in Christendom. We all know what your answer is, but you are afraid to plainly state it

 

[phil36]

Hi silas,

Can someone who proclaims to be a Christian, deny who Christ says he is ?

 

[silas42]

Hi silas,

Can someone who proclaims to be a Christian, deny who Christ says he is ?

When you can start answering questions Phil, instead of having to constantly evade and backpeddle on what you have previously stated, then start asking some of your own. To be honest, it would be better for you simply to withdraw here, your answers/deflections/evasions I am sure will not enamour those who in their hearts may agree with your beliefs

 

[phil36]

Hi silas,

we'r just going round in circles, I still stand by what I have said...some who proclaims to be a Christian and yet denies who Jesus is, is worshipping a false God. That is different from the sinner not fully knowing the Godhead (as far as we can understand it). Now I think I have made that quite clear, I don't know how to articulate it any clearer.

So now can you answer the question.. I thnk by you not answering says a lot and anyone reading will see through you silas.

Can someone who proclaims to be a Christian, deny who Christ says he is ?