Branches broken off

[brmicke]

I am interested in your opinions. Could some of you express your opinions about these verses please.

Ro 11:19 Thou wilt say, then, `The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in;
Ro 11:20 by unbelief they were broken off, and thou hast stood by faith; be not high-minded, but be fearing;
Ro 11:21 for if God the natural branches did not spare--lest perhaps He also shall not spare thee.

In Romans Paul seems to be speaking of natural Jews who lost their faith and gentiles who became faithful followers of God.

Is this instance of the vine from Romans 11 the same instance of the vine mentioned in John 15?

In John chapter 15 - God The Father is the Husbandman or farmer. Jesus is the vine and His faithful followers are the branches.

At this time, and as far as I understand them - these verses from John suggest that a person can be removed from Christ if they had been faithful but lost their faith. This would be similar to the Natural Jews losing their position with God because they refused to believe.

Although these individuals in John 15 had believed in Christ, at some point they refused to believe anymore, and as a result were cut off from the vine or Christ.

Joh 15:1 ¶ I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. {without me: or, severed from me}
(KJV)

Brian

 

[Bookends]

You can proclaim Christ, but that doesn't necessarily mean you possess Christ. The Jews who rejected Jesus were not of God's family to begin with. God does not show partiality towards men, either you trust God and follow Him or you don't. The natural or earthly Israel was but only an anti-type to the true Israel, Christ. Those in Christ are true Israel, a spiritual Jew. God always had 1 people for Himself.

I don't believe one can be truly born again and lose their salvation, but I do believe born again Christians can fall away from the faith for awhile. Which is to say you can slip on the deck of the ship, but not fall off. That said, I also believe there are people who proclaim to know Christ, but they really aren't interested in Christ himself, but what's on the masters table. Judas Iscariot is a prime example of this. Or they feel Christ is some sort of eternal life insurance policy, these people have a false faith. These are the people who don't continue in the faith (for it they did, they'd eventually or probably be saved) are one who are the broken branches, or the leaves fallen from the vine, or the seed thrown along the path and rocky places, not the true followers of Christ who have been planted in good soil.

Of coarse many will say I'm wrong and one can lose their salvation. But I don't see any verses that state one can be un-born spiritually, and then reborn again after repentance. If you are saved, born-again and fall into willful sin, God will chastise you and bring you back into the fellowship again. This one way you can be assured you are a Child of God, read Hebrews 12.

 

[ProphetExcalibur]

The branch meaning the Jews were broken off, but not the faithful ones of Old Covenant Israel.
Jesus was the true Israel, and the faithful line continued in Him alone!
Paul said of the branch that was broken off, that they might be grafted back into Him, Christ Jesus.
(Period! No other way ever).
So Paul's probably not speaking so much about individuals, as he is individuals in covenants.
The branch that was cut off, or broken off was Old Covenant Israel being made obsolete.
Also branches or communities in the true line of Israel,
Christ Jesus could be cut off also through unbelief.
There was no place here for boasting,
Both Jesus and Paul made it clear,...salvation was through Israel....

 

[Elin]

I am interested in your opinions. Could some of you express your opinions about these verses please.

Ro 11:19 Thou wilt say, then, `The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in;
Ro 11:20 by unbelief they were broken off, and thou hast stood by faith; be not high-minded, but be fearing;
Ro 11:21 for if God the natural branches did not spare--lest perhaps He also shall not spare thee.

In Romans Paul seems to be speaking of natural Jews who lost their faith and gentiles who became faithful followers of God.

Is this instance of the vine from Romans 11 the same instance of the vine mentioned in John 15?

In John chapter 15 - God The Father is the Husbandman or farmer. Jesus is the vine and His faithful followers are the branches.

At this time, and as far as I understand them - these verses from John suggest that a person can be removed from Christ if they had been faithful but lost their faith. This would be similar to the Natural Jews losing their position with God because they refused to believe.

Although these individuals in John 15 had believed in Christ, at some point they refused to believe anymore, and as a result were cut off from the vine or Christ.

Joh 15:1 ¶ I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. {without me: or, severed from me}
(KJV)

The branches in Ro 11 are of an olive tree.

The branches in Jn 15 are of a vine.

The olive tree of Ro 11 is believing Israel, God's people.

The vine of Jn 15 is the church, God's people, both Jew and Gentile.

The branches broken off in Ro 11 are faithless Israel.

The branches of Jn 15 that are cut off because they bear no fruit of obedience to Jesus are counterfeit believers, whose lack of fruit manifest their faithlessness.

 

[4enlightment]

John 15:5“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.


<em><strong>[video=youtube_share;vRIaPdKamTk]http://youtu.be/vRIaPdKamTk[/video]

 

[4enlightment]

[video=youtube_share;vRIaPdKamTk]http://youtu.be/vRIaPdKamTk[/video]

 

[4enlightment]

[video=youtube_share;Ntlox88jQ3w]http://youtu.be/Ntlox88jQ3w[/video]

 

[fredjames]

Peace be with you, in a simple way the HOLY SPIRIT teaches us that JESUS and Apostle Paul used stories of everyday life common experiences using two significant trees that they know and have witnessed in the land of Israel.
1. JESUS used a vine tree as an example to relate HIS message about the Kingdom of GOD in accordance to the New Testament, to HIS disciples to abide and even to their fruits must also abide (We are also their fruits, who also must abide).
2. Apostle Paul used an olive tree as an example to relate his message about the Kingdom of GOD in accordance to the New Testament, highlighting to the churches, because the Gentiles who have come to the faith were becoming proud.
The story of a True Vine tree represents the Kingdom of GOD in accordance to the New Testament;
The tree - Represents the Christian nation.
The trunk - May refer to the HOLY SPIRIT the Helper.
The Roots - LORD JESUS CHRIST.
The Branches - Leaders.
Leaves - May refer to participating title held members in the church.
Fruits - May refer to the attending believers in the church.

Cultivated Olive Tree and it's branches - Nation of Israel under the Law of Moses, a nation cultivated by GOD and also through HIS servants like Moses, Priests, Scribes and the Prophets in the Old Testament.
Wild Olive Tree and it's branched - the people who were without GOD, the Gentiles who were alienated from GOD.
The Cultivated Olive Tree branches that were cut off, are the Old Covenant abiding Jews who rejected the MESSIAH and the New Covenant (This is GOD's will and plan that they may reject, so that the Good News and Peace will go to the Gentiles).
The Wild Olive Tree branches that were attached are the Gentiles who believed in the MESSIAH and accepted GOD's Salvation.
The Wild Olive Tree branches that are cut off again and the very same cut off Cultivated Olive Tree branches before, were once again reattached to that very same tree (This is also GOD's will and plan that once the Gospel has been preached to all the Gentiles, then will once again return back to Israel, to the Old Covenant Jews. And Gentile Christians who were ignorant and proud to the Teachings of the MESSIAH and to the Instructions of the Apostles according to the completed New Testament, GOD will cut them off again once and for all and leave them there to wither on the ground).
So also Apostle Paul continues to say to all ignorant and proud Gentiles Christians not to be proud, and work out your Salvation in fear and trembling because there is coming a time of testing and a time to be cut off. The promises of GOD even Eternal Life, through the MESSIAH in the Holy Scriptures according to the New Covenant is sealed for us in Heaven our homes and only in our Hope that we may one day receive that crown of life. Meantime while running the race of salvation, let us now be alert and stay awake to all of the requirement of the New Covenant that we must abide. With obedience, obey GOD's Word and do HIS Word's will, in accordance to the New Covenant, the contract we have agreed upon, in order to run and finish the race of true life eternal. Please do not be disqualified later, for cheating in the contract now.
May GOD the FATHER of our LORD JESUS CHRIST bless you and complete you in spirit and truth.

 

[brmicke]

So Just to focus a bit more on a topic. The scripture here defines abiding in Christ's Love as keeping Jesus commandment to Love, John 15:12.

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. (KJV)

So if a person does not keep the Commandment of Christ to Love they will be cast into the fire as is seen four verses earlier in John 15:6.

Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

If it can be said that it is a characteristic of God to as we see in Romans 11, cut off a nation or individual and then graft them back in I feel that it can also be applied to Abiding in Christ and being cast into the fire.

I think that being cast into the fire is not a permanent condition. Just as a person can lose faith and regain it as is seen in Romans 11, they can go into the fire and come out of it as is seen in John 15.

From the example of the Tree representing the nation of Israel is think I can say the following. Regardless of whether we are speaking about a tree or a vine -

It seems to be a Characteristic of God that He can graft in and cut off and then graft in again. He seems to do this based on whether we decide to maintain our faith as is mentioned in Romans 11 or keeping Jesus commandment to Love as is mentioned in John 15.

My opinion right now is that we can be cast into the fire and then be released from the fire based on whether or not we keep the commandments and Abide in Christ's love.

If a person hardens their heart and refuses to keep the commandments they will remain in the fire, but if they choose to humble themselves before God and repent of their disobedience they will be released from the fire.

Whether a person remains in the fire or not then depends on their reaction to the fire. The fire can either cause them to be hardened and continue to break the commandments, or the fire can bring about their repentance from disobedience and move them to obedience or a loving attitude.

I think that the fire can be regarded as the judgment of 1 Cor 11:32. We can move in and out of this fire or judgment depending on whether or not we choose to obey Jesus command to Love.

Brian

 

[brmicke]

I think I need to comment on this as well -

When I advocate "Love" it is not the emotional high that unbelievers sometimes refer to as Love. When I think of love I define it as scripture does -

1Co 13:4 ¶ Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful;

When I think of Love I think of "patience and kindness", not emotionalism.

Brian

 

[reject-tech]

Whole chapter is about not being conceited because God has chosen you for something.

"Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee."

Don't show off on purpose, let God be the one that shows you off.

 

[fredjames]

Peace be with you, please let us not be short sighted and be short in faith. Our faith is based on the sound doctrine of the Holy Bible and not in our opinions and understanding.
As it is written in Proverbs chapter 3; 5-8; "..............................'lean not on you own understanding'..............................'Be not wise in your own sight;..................................."
God made this very clear in HIS Word. Let us not dare twist them if we do not know them enough to understand. Clearly once the withered branches are thrown into the fire there is no way out. Holy Scripturally this and many other things written in the New Covenant has been given to all Believers and Church Leaders to abide while here on earth even in reminder and in stirring up of memory to stay awake and be alert for HIS coming is not known. When now itself, the HOLY SPIRIT our Helper and Teacher and our LORD have highlighted all these Covenant things to us, then let us now itself wisely act, pray, discuss with our LORD all our weaknesses to abide.
That is why CHRIST through Apostle Paul's words is not short in saying; "Work out your salvation in fear and trembling."
Why can't we come out of the fire since we are already saved?
Please pray first and then read the Gospel Parable about 'Lazarus and the Rich Man'
Because when we had the chance, servants of GOD's reminder after reminder, we ignored and slumbered around.
As it is written in the 3rd chapter, epistle of Hebrews, verse 7-11, to all maturing Christian three times in order to remind and to stir up memory also ours today that;
"There will soon come a time of dividing and least anyone should fall short."
May GOD the FATHER of our LORD JESUS CHRIST bless HIS Church in boldness, spirit and truth.

 

[svedbygrace]

Branches broken off

Those were unbelieving jews who had been identifying with God's Chosen People, however their unbelief shows they did not really belong to God's Chosen Israel. They were broken off because of manifested unbelief . Rom 11:20

Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

You see, merely being an ethnic jew did not make one one of God's Chosen ones Deut 7:6

6 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

Being one of God's special Chosen ones meant having been Chosen in Christ before the foundation Eph 1:4. So those jews who did not manifest Faith in Christ, were broken off, meaning it manifested they did not belong to the Chosen Ones of that nation. Only Faith in Christ whom the Chosen ones were Chosen in, before the foundation makes manifest being one of God's Chosen.

 

[brmicke]

Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. (KJV)

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. (KJV)

Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. (KJV)

These verses are very clear. If a person does not keep Jesus command to "Love" others they will be cast into the fire.

As I mentioned, I feel a person can be cast into the fire and then come out of it.

James 3:6 suggests that Hell can effect a person in this world.
Jas 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell. {course: Gr. wheel}
(KJV)

The cultural mindset which makes a person think that being effected by Hell fire is permanent in every case is refuted in Matt 5:21-26.

Consider --
====================================================
Mt 5:21 ¶ Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: {by: or, to} (KJV)
Mt 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Mt 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. (KJV)
Mt 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing. (KJV)
==========================================================

This same concept is also seen in Luke 12:58-59 and is referred to as being cast into prison.

Lu 12:58 When thou goest with thine adversary to the magistrate, as thou art in the way, give diligence that thou mayest be delivered from him; lest he hale thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and the officer cast thee into prison. (KJV)

Lu 12:59 I tell thee, thou shalt not depart thence, till thou hast paid the very last mite. (KJV)
====================================================

Only a person who thinks that they understand, will not consider new understanding, 1 Cor 8:2.

Brian

 

[brmicke]

This would mean that the fire's of Hell would serve a disciplinary function in the lives of God's people, and God could give the Christian over to Hell's limited influence if the summation of the Law (namely the principle of Love) were violated.

 

[brmicke]

It is clear from James 3:6 that Hell can effect this life.

Jas 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

Hell is the spiritual prison according to Matt 5:21-26 . Interestingly human kind has a prison for law breakers, and God also has a prison called Hell, and a Christian who violates Christ's command to Love is confined there when they violate His Law.

This would mean that the fire's of Hell would serve a disciplinary function in the lives of God's people, and God could give the Christian over to Hell's limited influence if the summation of the Law (namely the principle of Love) were violated.

This comparison is scripturally valid and appropriate.

To take this one step further then it becomes clear that when we see a Christian brother or sister with an habitually "unloving" attitude they are (according to Matt 5:22) in danger of being given over to the punishment of Hell.

Jesus said that is Hell is a place where body and soul are destroyed, Matt 10:28.

Mt 10:28 And be not afraid of them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

This indicates then that those who habitually violate the Law of Christ to "Love" are going to be given over to the effects of Hell in this lifetime. They are going to be given over to that which destroys soul and body in this life if they refuse to "Love" or be patient and kind. This is how God scourges every son He accepts, Heb 12:6.

Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
(KJV)

Brian

 

[brmicke]

If God disciplines His people (1 Cor 11:32), how else can He do it but by delivering them to the enemy.

1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

 

[RedTent]

I think that before we can dig into the spiritual implications of scripture we have to first see the secular of what was happening. Because there is a spiritual dimension to our physical life, we can then dig into the spiritual or heart of the matter.

Paul wrote this just as he was going to Jerusalem after a trip to Greece in about the year 56. Most Christians were Jewish but many Jews did not accept Christ as messiah. The terrible division between Jew Christians and gentile Christians was just getting started. It would be over 50 years before the Kochba War of 134 destroyed the last of the temple and killed off most of the Jewish Christians. No one thought the gentiles would lead the Christian Church as soon as they did.

The answer Paul was getting from God was about what to tell the gentiles so they could be saved. Many were objecting to living like a Jew lived, Paul had to sort out how that applied to their salvation, and how God saw these people who had always been the only people who knew God, before.

If you first read Romans 11 with this in mind, I think you will get a better view of the spiritual dimension of the book, even.

 

[brmicke]

What I am really trying to bring out is that Hell can be used for discipline and then a person can come out of the so called prison after correcting the behavior that put them there in the first place.

 

[brmicke]

If a person cannot come out of Hell (the prison) how can these verses be explained?

Mt 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Mt 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

Mt 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

The only reason why this verse cannot be accepted as it is written is because it conflicts with the traditional viewpoint of Hell in which Hell is only discipline or punishment after death. But if a person is not disciplined how can they learn to abstain from ungodliness during their earthly lifetime, titus 2:11-12?