God's sovereignty vs human free will

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U

Ukorin

Guest
#1
I believe in free will, but also God's sovereignty, but I am having trouble finding scripture to validate my position when faced with questions about election and predestination. I know there must be free will, because we are held responsible for sin, but I also know that God has individually chosen us to be saved (John 6) (John 10:26) (Eph. 1:3-5) (Romans 9:13-18).
Is there a verse or a Biblical idea that allows these principles to coincide and not seem like contradictions? I know there must be something that I am missing.
 

ForthAngel

Senior Member
Aug 31, 2012
2,171
91
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#2
I wonder about this too. I think we have some sort of will but God also controls everything.

Example of our will:
[h=3]Leviticus 1:3[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]3 [/SUP]‘If his offering is a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish; he shall offer it of his own free will at the door of the tabernacle of meeting before the Lord.



Example of God's will and overriding our will:
[h=3]Numbers 16:4-5[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]4 [/SUP]So when Moses heard it, he fell on his face; [SUP]5 [/SUP]and he spoke to Korah and all his company, saying, “Tomorrow morning the Lord will show who is His and who is holy, and will cause him to come near to Him. That one whom He chooses He will cause to come near to Him.
 
B

Bryancampbell

Guest
#3
Predestination is understood through God's foreknowledge. Because He foreknew that you would accept Christ, He predestined you. They both work hand at hand. The first chapter of the apostle Peter's epistle agrees while he speaks of the scattered believers,

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure." - 1 Peter 1:1-2 NASB

We who were chosen was foreknew from the beginning, because the Father knew you would accept the gospel by your own free will, thus you have been predestined as the one of the chosen, one of the elect.
 
L

LT

Guest
#4
I do rationalize it normally the way you have stated it Bryan, but some people have told me there is contradiction there. This conundrum is more along the lines of: God chooses the believers, but God cannot be responsible for neglecting to choose those who are not saved.
I am willing to overlook this "contradiction" if I cannot find a solid answer, as many other things are mysteries of God aswell.
 
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jandian

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2011
772
11
18
#5
God will not choose people to be saved and then punish the ones HE didn't choose. HE is a just GOD.
 
Jun 30, 2011
2,521
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0
#6
I believe in free will, but also God's sovereignty, but I am having trouble finding scripture to validate my position when faced with questions about election and predestination. I know there must be free will, because we are held responsible for sin, but I also know that God has individually chosen us to be saved (John 6) (John 10:26) (Eph. 1:3-5) (Romans 9:13-18).
Is there a verse or a Biblical idea that allows these principles to coincide and not seem like contradictions? I know there must be something that I am missing.
Don't forget all the verses that say, and the Lord opened their heart, gave them a heart to do something etc
 

mystdancer50

Senior Member
Feb 26, 2012
2,522
50
48
#7
Predestination is understood through God's foreknowledge. Because He foreknew that you would accept Christ, He predestined you. They both work hand at hand. The first chapter of the apostle Peter's epistle agrees while he speaks of the scattered believers,

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure." - 1 Peter 1:1-2 NASB

We who were chosen was foreknew from the beginning, because the Father knew you would accept the gospel by your own free will, thus you have been predestined as the one of the chosen, one of the elect.
I agree. God was, is and will be/is to come. So, predestined doesn't mean that He looked and said, "Okay, I'll pick some to choose Me and some not to, and then I'll make it so." It is because He will be that He knows who, in fact, will willingly choose Him.
 
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
689
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#8
I believe in free will, but also God's sovereignty, but I am having trouble finding scripture to validate my position when faced with questions about election and predestination. I know there must be free will, because we are held responsible for sin, but I also know that God has individually chosen us to be saved (John 6) (John 10:26) (Eph. 1:3-5) (Romans 9:13-18).
Is there a verse or a Biblical idea that allows these principles to coincide and not seem like contradictions? I know there must be something that I am missing.
I think it all boils down to who our father is. GOD said he foreknew certain people. In other words, in his mind he conceived certain people as his own. The world exists in such a state that anyone can have a child, whether it is the will of GOD or not. So, those who are born into this world through the will of man who were not foreknown by GOD are of a different spiritual parentage. These people do not follow GOD because he is not their father (my sheep hear my voice), i.e. they were not predestined in GOD's mind.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,704
3,649
113
#9
I believe in free will, but also God's sovereignty, but I am having trouble finding scripture to validate my position when faced with questions about election and predestination. I know there must be free will, because we are held responsible for sin, but I also know that God has individually chosen us to be saved (John 6) (John 10:26) (Eph. 1:3-5) (Romans 9:13-18).
Is there a verse or a Biblical idea that allows these principles to coincide and not seem like contradictions? I know there must be something that I am missing.
God is 100% sovereign/man is 100% responsible.
I hold firmly to the two.
Have fun from there.
 
Sep 6, 2013
4,430
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#10
God will not choose people to be saved and then punish the ones HE didn't choose. HE is a just GOD.
He is not choosing some and then punishing others. He is SAVING some, when ALL deserve hell due to their own sin. The miracle is that he chooses to save any of us. People seem to feel that mankind is entitled to salvation. I think that may be where the problem arises.

I heard a good analogy of free will and predestination not long ago. Imagine a row of people all blindfolded and walking off the edge of a cliff to their death. Someone comes along and rips the blindfold off of several of the people. They then realize that they are about to step off the edge of the cliff and die. Who then, seeing what they are walking toward, would choose NOT to turn around and head in the opposite direction?

So, thinking about that, sure the man chooses to "accept" Christ. But God first had to remove his blindfold. Once the blindfold is removed, the man sees, and there is no question of him remaining as he was. He is already a changed man by that point. (That leads us into irresistible grace, which is a whole new fascinating issue.)
 
U

Ukorin

Guest
#11
He is not choosing some and then punishing others. He is SAVING some, when ALL deserve hell due to their own sin. The miracle is that he chooses to save any of us. People seem to feel that mankind is entitled to salvation. I think that may be where the problem arises.

I heard a good analogy of free will and predestination not long ago. Imagine a row of people all blindfolded and walking off the edge of a cliff to their death. Someone comes along and rips the blindfold off of several of the people. They then realize that they are about to step off the edge of the cliff and die. Who then, seeing what they are walking toward, would choose NOT to turn around and head in the opposite direction?

So, thinking about that, sure the man chooses to "accept" Christ. But God first had to remove his blindfold. Once the blindfold is removed, the man sees, and there is no question of him remaining as he was. He is already a changed man by that point. (That leads us into irresistible grace, which is a whole new fascinating issue.)
This answers my dilemma. Or at least begins to answer it, I will need to investigate a bit further, but "entitlement of salvation" may have been the root of my issue.
But... it does say several times in Scripture, in different ways, that Jesus died for the sins of ALL man. I know I am starting a bit of a different topic by stating this, but how am I supposed to interpret those all-inclusive verses when I know the apostles, and even Jesus Himself, spoke of election?
 
Sep 11, 2013
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#12
There is a contradiction not in the bible but in man's carnal thinking. Man does not have freewill. He never has. This is nearly impossible for man to understand and I can see why. But we do not have freewill.
 

mystdancer50

Senior Member
Feb 26, 2012
2,522
50
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#13
There is a contradiction not in the bible but in man's carnal thinking. Man does not have freewill. He never has. This is nearly impossible for man to understand and I can see why. But we do not have freewill.
Of course we do. Your freewill just allowed you to choose to post the above post, complete with bold and underlining and my freewill just allowed me to choose to respond.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,095
6,479
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#14
There is a contradiction not in the bible but in man's carnal thinking. Man does not have freewill. He never has. This is nearly impossible for man to understand and I can see why. But we do not have freewill.
can you tell me what this Scripture is speaking of please?

Joshua 24:15) And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
 

Nick01

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2013
1,272
26
48
#15
The problem I always run into with the 'God foreknew, and thus chose those he knew would choose him' line of argument is that it doesn't seem to address the entirety of what being sovereign means. You see, God made us. He made everything. By the very act of his making, he has shaped who we are. Because God both knows the future and made something out of nothing, he is sovereignly in control of what people will then choose to do. In the act of making, he knew exactly what the result of his making would be, and thus at least indirectly brings those future effects to be. His sovereign will overrides our will.

I usually come down on it in this way: we do not know everything that will ever happen, or that has happened. We cannot know what it is like to be God in that way. However, what we can know is that God is not paralysed by his knowledge. He is not paralysed by having to deal with the repercussions of every act of his. He proceeds with a majestic plan, to bring glory to himself, partially by creating man that has the ability to choose and have moral responsibility, even though he already knows what every choice will be, and in some way permits it by the act of creation itself.

However, that act does not compromise mankind's ability to choose, or even the validity of the moral choosing - to know something will happen in the future is not the same as that thing actually happening through causality. Our choices matter and have value, even though they were known and I guess really ordained before time began.

So, in sum, God is in control. He has to be because he made everything and knowns everything. There is nothing he is not in control of, or in some way brings to pass. However, our choices are still real choices, with real effects, and real responsibility. I don't know exactly how, but I can sense that in the mystery of God's omniscience, creation, foreknowledge, but legitimate meaningful choice can be reconcile. The inability to do so now is simply because of our limited frame of reference.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,704
3,649
113
#16
Fallen man has ''free will''...the freedom to choose according to his fallen nature but is blind apart from the grace of God to see the things of God.
 

jandian

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2011
772
11
18
#17
The problem I always run into with the 'God foreknew, and thus chose those he knew would choose him' line of argument is that it doesn't seem to address the entirety of what being sovereign means. You see, God made us. He made everything. By the very act of his making, he has shaped who we are. Because God both knows the future and made something out of nothing, he is sovereignly in control of what people will then choose to do. In the act of making, he knew exactly what the result of his making would be, and thus at least indirectly brings those future effects to be. His sovereign will overrides our will.

I usually come down on it in this way: we do not know everything that will ever happen, or that has happened. We cannot know what it is like to be God in that way. However, what we can know is that God is not paralysed by his knowledge. He is not paralysed by having to deal with the repercussions of every act of his. He proceeds with a majestic plan, to bring glory to himself, partially by creating man that has the ability to choose and have moral responsibility, even though he already knows what every choice will be, and in some way permits it by the act of creation itself.

However, that act does not compromise mankind's ability to choose, or even the validity of the moral choosing - to know something will happen in the future is not the same as that thing actually happening through causality. Our choices matter and have value, even though they were known and I guess really ordained before time began.

So, in sum, God is in control. He has to be because he made everything and knowns everything. There is nothing he is not in control of, or in some way brings to pass. However, our choices are still real choices, with real effects, and real responsibility. I don't know exactly how, but I can sense that in the mystery of God's omniscience, creation, foreknowledge, but legitimate meaningful choice can be reconcile. The inability to do so now is simply because of our limited frame of reference.
God can do anything including giving us an independent will. that's how sin began - man had a choice, to sin or not sin
 
Sep 6, 2013
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#18
God can do anything including giving us an independent will. that's how sin began - man had a choice, to sin or not sin
Free will to sin, yes. Free will to save ourselves, not really. The Bible tells us that we were DEAD in our trespasses.
A dead man cannot do anything to save himself. He is dead. And an enlightened man cannot do anything to cover his eyes and become blind again.


Ephesians 5:13-14 But all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light. For this reason it says, "Awake, sleeper, And arise from the dead, And Christ will shine on you."

Ephesians 2:4-5 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)...

Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions

Ephesians 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world...
 
Jul 26, 2013
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#19
I believe in free will, but also God's sovereignty, but I am having trouble finding scripture to validate my position when faced with questions about election and predestination. I know there must be free will, because we are held responsible for sin, but I also know that God has individually chosen us to be saved (John 6) (John 10:26) (Eph. 1:3-5) (Romans 9:13-18).
Is there a verse or a Biblical idea that allows these principles to coincide and not seem like contradictions? I know there must be something that I am missing.
If you have any choice at all, it is God who provides all of which you may choose from.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,095
6,479
113
#20
Here is something to think about........

pre·des·ti·na·tion
(pr-dst-nshn)
n.
1. The act of predestining or the condition of being predestined.
2. Theology
a. The doctrine that God has foreordained all things, especially that God has elected certain souls to eternal salvation.
b. The divine decree foreordaining all souls to either salvation or damnation.
c. The act of God foreordaining all things gone before and to come.
3. Destiny; fate.


SLAVERY:
A slave is a person owned by someone and slavery is the state of being under the control of someone where a person is forced to work for another. A slave is considered as a property of another as the one controlling them purchases them or owns them from their birth. In slavery the slave does not have a right to leave the owner or not work for them. Slavery is a form of forced labor. They do not receive any remuneration for the work they do.

The slave has no freedom of action except within limits set by the master

Slavery is a system under which people are treated as property to be bought and sold, and are forced to work.[SUP][1][/SUP] Slaves can be held against their will from the time of their capture, purchase or birth, and deprived of the right to leave, to refuse to work, or to demand compensation. Historically, slavery was institutionally recognized by many societies; in more recent times slavery has been outlawed in most societies but continues through the practices of debt bondage, indentured servitude, serfdom, domestic servants kept in captivity, certain adoptions in which children are forced to work as slaves, child soldiers, and forced marriage.[SUP][2

[/SUP]