With WHO lies the BURDEN OF PROOF regarding spiritual gifts--tongues, healing, etc.?

[GreenNnice]

Who does The Word ask to provide a burden of proof for IF healings, tongues, prophecies, still exist ?

There are tons of times His Spirit IN US uses signs and wonders to show His power to us in nowaday times and, of course, back then in 1 A.D. bible times, too, Jesus did a pretty good job of showing the Gentiles and Jews on Earth the power of One

The power of One !

Sorry, I just had to say that


But, just WHAT--if we go deeeep down to an understanding of the spiritual gifts verses of Scriptures, and, passages-- , or, rather WHO, is the real question, the real right 'W,' of WHO must provide the burden of proof for the spiritual gifts still being around today, or, not ?
So, who must

Cessationists ? (They don't believe prophecy, healing, tongues gifts exist today. Gifts can exist later in 'time,' they say.)

Continuationists ? (They believe the spiritual gifts of prophecy, healing, tongues did not end after Paul died).

Both?

Don't forget to vote

And, with your answer that's 'true,' too, in who lies the burden of proof, also, please, give us some proof from Scripture of why the one doctrine belief MUST prove that the spiritual gifts are still 'hits' by God's power through one (of faith of His) today, or, if the spiritual gifts, simply, are history and noooo one has the power of Him working through him/her in a healing, prophecy, or, tongues, sort of way; there just is not reason today for those 'gifts' of yesterday.
We get the Holy Spirit gift today and that's it, the spiritual gifts of healing, prophecy, tongues, ended in Paul's time.

So, how does this answer come from you ?

Read my lips: The spiritual gifts are no longer needed .

or

Read my lips as He speaks through me: The spiritual gifts are STILL being worked by God's power through people of faith TODAY.



Some of all this, I must admit, sounds a lot like the word 'faith' being needed to prove this burden All ?

 

[ForthAngel]

The continuationists lack of evidence of a genuine nature defying miracle is evidence for cessationists against them. I would say the burden of proof falls on those who claim to have the gifts, but are consistently incapable of proving it.

 

[GreenNnice]

The continuationists lack of evidence of a genuine nature defying miracle is evidence for cessationists against them. I would say the burden of proof falls on those who claim to have the gifts, but are consistently incapable of proving it.

Can 'faith,' a substance, be proven to mere men's minds, then ?
Because whoever is healed--not the healer, mind you, who is working through the Great Physician, mind you--is the only one who sees, for example, the cancer gone from there body, because of faith. Or, because of what? I guess, the doctor sees with his own two eyes on an MRI or biopsy (or whatever scans cancer) THE CANCER. And, when that person leaves and goes to a church and hands get laid on them, or, they are just prayed for by a 'prayer request,', AND GETS HEALED, then, there is a substance of observation there, isn't there?

Still, it is still faith And, it's faith in Him.

So, according to Scripture, regarding the question asked in my thread title, would 'faith' be a continuationist's burden of proof for spiritual gifts of prophecy, healing, tongues existing today?

Now, that said, where in Scripture, is thie 'proof' seen so as to unburden those not believing of this proof?




hi forth

 

[ForthAngel]

Can 'faith,' a substance, be proven to mere men's minds, then ?
Because whoever is healed--not the healer, mind you, who is working through the Great Physician, mind you--is the only one who sees, for example, the cancer gone from there body, because of faith. Or, because of what? I guess, the doctor sees with his own two eyes on an MRI or biopsy (or whatever scans cancer) THE CANCER. And, when that person leaves and goes to a church and hands get laid on them, or, they are just prayed for by a 'prayer request,', AND GETS HEALED, then, there is a substance of observation there, isn't there?

Still, it is still faith And, it's faith in Him.

So, according to Scripture, regarding the question asked in my thread title, would 'faith' be a continuationist's burden of proof for spiritual gifts of prophecy, healing, tongues existing today?

Now, that said, where in Scripture, is thie 'proof' seen so as to unburden those not believing of this proof?




hi forth

Hi Green

My faith isn't in miracles, it's in Jesus Christ. I believe God heals according to his will through prayer in line with his will. He may choose to do it, or he may not. I have heard plenty of stories, never any evidence, of miraculous instant healing. The gifts were miraculous, not easily faked. What we see today is easily debunked.

Many times people on these forums have given examples of false prophets, apostles, teachers, healers, tongue speakers, etc. And all those claiming to have the gifts will agree that these people are faking it for profit. So then people will ask for a real example then.

Those who ask for a real example are met with responses such as "why would I show you who wouldn't believe even if you saw it" or, like you have done here, say it requires faith to actually believe in them. Therein lies the problem. It does require faith, but faith in the fake miracle, not faith in Christ.

Those who are denying modern day signs and wonders are not lacking in faith in Jesus Christ but have it in more abundance because they don't need signs, but lacking in faith for the miracles that others are claiming to possess. If you agree that many here who combat modern day gifts are saved, which I will assume you do, then why are the views conflicting? If these people that are asking to see proof are in fact saved, then asking for proof of a sign someone claims to be able to produce is not a faithless response, but rather testing the spirit of the one claiming to be a miracle worker out of defense of the true faith which lies solely in Jesus, not in signs and wonders.

I don't understand what the big deal is. If someone claims to have a miraculous gift, prove it. They were done in the bible as a sign to unbelievers that they might be saved. Has the reason for them changed? I don't believe in the modern day "miracles" so to those who claim to have them I am an unbeliever. Can I please have proof so that I might believe?

 

[directline2iam]

Who does The Word ask to provide a burden of proof for IF healings, tongues, prophecies, still exist ?

There are tons of times His Spirit IN US uses signs and wonders to show His power to us in nowaday times and, of course, back then in 1 A.D. bible times, too, Jesus did a pretty good job of showing the Gentiles and Jews on Earth the power of One

The power of One !

Sorry, I just had to say that


But, just WHAT--if we go deeeep down to an understanding of the spiritual gifts verses of Scriptures, and, passages-- , or, rather WHO, is the real question, the real right 'W,' of WHO must provide the burden of proof for the spiritual gifts still being around today, or, not ?
So, who must

Cessationists ? (They don't believe prophecy, healing, tongues gifts exist today. Gifts can exist later in 'time,' they say.)

Continuationists ? (They believe the spiritual gifts of prophecy, healing, tongues did not end after Paul died).

Both?

Don't forget to vote

And, with your answer that's 'true,' too, in who lies the burden of proof, also, please, give us some proof from Scripture of why the one doctrine belief MUST prove that the spiritual gifts are still 'hits' by God's power through one (of faith of His) today, or, if the spiritual gifts, simply, are history and noooo one has the power of Him working through him/her in a healing, prophecy, or, tongues, sort of way; there just is not reason today for those 'gifts' of yesterday.
We get the Holy Spirit gift today and that's it, the spiritual gifts of healing, prophecy, tongues, ended in Paul's time.

So, how does this answer come from you ?

Read my lips: The spiritual gifts are no longer needed .

or

Read my lips as He speaks through me: The spiritual gifts are STILL being worked by God's power through people of faith TODAY.



Some of all this, I must admit, sounds a lot like the word 'faith' being needed to prove this burden All ?

Greek gentiles
Acts 17:23 For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even
found an altar with this inscription: to an unknown god. ...


Pharisees and Sadducees Seek a Sign
Matt 16:1 The Pharisees and Sadducees came up, and testing Jesus, they asked Him to show them a sign from heaven.


1 Cor 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

As you can plainly see, the gentiles really never had a problem believing and you can also plainly see the Jews did. And those signs and wonders were to edify the body of the church and as you can plainly see in the last group of verses, well apparently you can't see but that's your own fault you don't choose to believe scripture a sure sign of Gods love to us.

 

[zone]

The continuationists lack of evidence of a genuine nature defying miracle is evidence for cessationists against them. I would say the burden of proof falls on those who claim to have the gifts, but are consistently incapable of proving it.

[h=3]dit·to[/h]/ˈditō/

[TABLE="class: vk_txt ts"]
[TR]
[TD][TABLE="class: ts"]
[TR]
[TD]

1. Used in accounts and lists to indicate that an item is repeated (often indicated by ditto marks under the word or figure to be repeated).
2. Used to indicate that something already said is applicable a second time.

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[RickyZ]

Hi Green

My faith isn't in miracles, it's in Jesus Christ. I believe God heals according to his will through prayer in line with his will. He may choose to do it, or he may not. I have heard plenty of stories, never any evidence, of miraculous instant healing. The gifts were miraculous, not easily faked. What we see today is easily debunked.

Many times people on these forums have given examples of false prophets, apostles, teachers, healers, tongue speakers, etc. And all those claiming to have the gifts will agree that these people are faking it for profit. So then people will ask for a real example then.

Those who ask for a real example are met with responses such as "why would I show you who wouldn't believe even if you saw it" or, like you have done here, say it requires faith to actually believe in them. Therein lies the problem. It does require faith, but faith in the fake miracle, not faith in Christ.

Those who are denying modern day signs and wonders are not lacking in faith in Jesus Christ but have it in more abundance because they don't need signs, but lacking in faith for the miracles that others are claiming to possess. If you agree that many here who combat modern day gifts are saved, which I will assume you do, then why are the views conflicting? If these people that are asking to see proof are in fact saved, then asking for proof of a sign someone claims to be able to produce is not a faithless response, but rather testing the spirit of the one claiming to be a miracle worker out of defense of the true faith which lies solely in Jesus, not in signs and wonders.

I don't understand what the big deal is. If someone claims to have a miraculous gift, prove it. They were done in the bible as a sign to unbelievers that they might be saved. Has the reason for them changed? I don't believe in the modern day "miracles" so to those who claim to have them I am an unbeliever. Can I please have proof so that I might believe?

Uhm, read some of the threads I've started. Perhaps the problem is that those seeking answers don't care to hear them.

 

[ForthAngel]

Uhm, read some of the threads I've started. Perhaps the problem is that those seeking answers don't care to hear them.

nvm wrong guy. i will take a look ricky. im not sure what your stance is.

 

[RickyZ]

I think the original premise is flawed. There would be no scripture putting the burden of proof on one side or another to prove itself right, because scripture doesn't see two sides to the issue. Scripture is very clear, these things will pass away when that which is Perfection has come (1Cor 13:8-10). And if you think the current state of the world is a state of perfection, well, you're either with the enemy or blinded by his lies.

 

[zone]

nvm wrong guy. i will take a look ricky. im not sure what your stance is.

ricky said he wanted to command the ocean at Orange County so everybody could body surf.

he said God spoke right to him, saying: why are you asking me - you know you already have the authority.

so ricky commanded the sea, and soon some waves came and everybody had fun in the surf.
and some kid maybe heard ricky said thank you Lord.

ricky has the power and authority and faith to command the pacific ocean to do things.
so it was for God's Glory.
parently.

 

[zone]

I think the original premise is flawed. There would be no scripture putting the burden of proof on one side or another to prove itself right, because scripture doesn't see two sides to the issue. Scripture is very clear, these things will pass away when that which is Perfection has come (1Cor 13:8-10). And if you think the current state of the world is a state of perfection, well, you're either with the enemy or blinded by his lies.

if you think you God spoke to you and said what you claim, and you commanded the ocean and it obeyed you, i think you need a reality check.

 

[Abiding]

 

[directline2iam]

I think the original premise is flawed. There would be no scripture putting the burden of proof on one side or another to prove itself right, because scripture doesn't see two sides to the issue. Scripture is very clear, these things will pass away when that which is Perfection has come (1Cor 13:8-10). And if you think the current state of the world is a state of perfection, well, you're either with the enemy or blinded by his lies.

Where in the original autographs in 1 Cor 13:8-12 does it say the state of the world will become perfection? What is the subject that Paul is writing about? Looks like Gifts to me, the same Gifts listed by Paul as fading away and ceasing when the Bible is put together as the complete Word of God. It's a deep study, you really should get to work at it.

 

[directline2iam]

ricky said he wanted to command the ocean at Orange County so everybody could body surf.

he said God spoke right to him, saying: why are you asking me - you know you already have the authority.

so ricky commanded the sea, and soon some waves came and everybody had fun in the surf.
and some kid maybe heard ricky said thank you Lord.

ricky has the power and authority and faith to command the pacific ocean to do things.
so it was for God's Glory.
parently.

See, and there is the proof in the lying pudding... Gods words say ASK and it shall be given unto you. Now Why would God turn right around and tell RickyZ ...Why are you ASKING Me?....God doesn't contradict Himself... Another made up story..that's why.

 

[thecreationtutor]

I would have to say where are people? In America they don't' believe anything, I think if God can't do much of the miraculous in the USA because of the unbelief.

Have I seen miraculous healing, yes, but if I told you about it you would say that it wasn't real.

I would tell you of the demonic and you would probably believe that, but not a miracle

Do i think there is charismatic chaos, yes I do because of the flesh of people, and Satan has his miracles in the tares.

Do I think miracles, tongues etc have ceased, no because the Word doesn't say so, and the lame verse that they use, is a hard stretch of people making it say what they want to, that's called eisegesis

I don't think people know what it looks like to be led by the Holy Spirit anymore. Many are led by their desires and then say that they are led by the Spirit.

 

[ForthAngel]

I don't think people know what it looks like to be led by the Holy Spirit anymore. Many are led by their desires and then say that they are led by the Spirit.

Funny. We hold the same opinion:

[video=youtube;RCG25FCKx0M]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCG25FCKx0M[/video]

 

[notuptome]

Who are we to demand proof especially of God? We are to receive grace through faith. Faith that can only come through the word of God. The only faith that amounts to anything is produced by hearing or reading the bible and the Holy Spirit opening our understanding that the words bring conviction of sin, righteousness, and judgment. Too many have heard and acquired a head knowledge but never a heart knowledge of the need to be saved. The Holy Spirit speaks only of Christ. Those who claim to operate with apostolic gifts are all about the Holy Spirit and not so much about Christ. They by the way they operate make the Holy Spirit of greater importance than Christ.

Paul in instructing the Corinthians tells them that the natural man cannot receive the things of the Holy Spirit and that they are foolishness to him. Paul also tells them that God chose the foolishness of preaching the cross to save those who believe. It seems that I always come back to the matter of salvation. Doctrine is essential to salvation. You must have a correct biblical understanding of the matter to have eternal life. The Pentecostal/charismatic groups seem to view gifts like tongues as an evidence that they are saved. It is not. Miraculous healings are not an evidence that a person is saved.

I have ministered both in the Spirit and out of the Spirit. I know the difference. If I fail to pray and prepare to serve I can tell that I am ministering in my strength alone and see how weak and ineffective I am as a man. I have been blessed to be filled with the Holy Spirit many times and it by far is the state in which I desire to serve the Lord.

I do not need God to prove anything but He has evidenced His power and the truth of His word in my life more times than I can count.

For the cause of Christ

Roger

 

[stevevw]

Who does The Word ask to provide a burden of proof for IF healings, tongues, prophecies, still exist ?

There are tons of times His Spirit IN US uses signs and wonders to show His power to us in nowaday times and, of course, back then in 1 A.D. bible times, too, Jesus did a pretty good job of showing the Gentiles and Jews on Earth the power of One

The power of One !

Sorry, I just had to say that


But, just WHAT--if we go deeeep down to an understanding of the spiritual gifts verses of Scriptures, and, passages-- , or, rather WHO, is the real question, the real right 'W,' of WHO must provide the burden of proof for the spiritual gifts still being around today, or, not ?
So, who must

Cessationists ? (They don't believe prophecy, healing, tongues gifts exist today. Gifts can exist later in 'time,' they say.)

Continuationists ? (They believe the spiritual gifts of prophecy, healing, tongues did not end after Paul died).

Both?

Don't forget to vote

And, with your answer that's 'true,' too, in who lies the burden of proof, also, please, give us some proof from Scripture of why the one doctrine belief MUST prove that the spiritual gifts are still 'hits' by God's power through one (of faith of His) today, or, if the spiritual gifts, simply, are history and noooo one has the power of Him working through him/her in a healing, prophecy, or, tongues, sort of way; there just is not reason today for those 'gifts' of yesterday.
We get the Holy Spirit gift today and that's it, the spiritual gifts of healing, prophecy, tongues, ended in Paul's time.

So, how does this answer come from you ?

Read my lips: The spiritual gifts are no longer needed .

or

Read my lips as He speaks through me: The spiritual gifts are STILL being worked by God's power through people of faith TODAY.



Some of all this, I must admit, sounds a lot like the word 'faith' being needed to prove this burden All ?

well there aint many healings of note that can truly stand out as miraculous. there are a few that have made the head lines but if you consider that Christ said you will also be able to do these things and more through the holy spirit and go out and heal the sick well there's not much happening. for all those who claim to have received the holy spirit then there would be a whole lot of healing going on. but there's not it would make the news it would be to astounding to be kept secret. with today's tech everyone knows everyone's business.

 

[jimmydiggs]

 

[GreenNnice]

What is the burden of proof then?

There's ONE verse, and, this is AMAZING to me, BOTH continuationists AND ceasationists USE it to prove their belief in spiritual gifts !!

Why is this?

This is the main verse, 1 Corinthians 13: 8-13, that ALL use as a foundation for believing in gifts of the Spirit given by 'The Gift' (Holy Spirit) to those who believe.

Again, it's astounding to me, the same verse can be used to support BOTH's beliefs. Debate should not work like this, LOL