What makes marriage legitimate?

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K

Kerusso

Guest
#1
#1
I thought I might get a little attention with that title....the reason for the question is this: with the recent push for legality and acceptance of same sex "marriage", with several states now issuing licenses, from a Christian perspective, that is, that marriage is 'holy matrimony' between one man and one woman, is a state issued license necessary for Christians and the church to recognize as a legitimate union?

Let me ask it this way. Can or should the church consider issuing its own "license" for marriage purposes, with or without state license? I realize without a state license the two are not considered man and wife and would be exempt of certain privileges, such as inheritances and such, but nonetheless, if a Christian man and a Christian woman are in agreement, and a state issued license would be cause for distress, such as financial distress, can they be married by a Christian minister and be recognized by the Christian community as man and wife, without the state license?
 
J

jahsoul

Guest
#2
#2
Personally, I feel that the government shouldn't have any hand in anyone's marriage. The only purpose of it is for tax and benefits reason.
 
K

Kerusso

Guest
#3
#3
I agree with your assessment of the government's reasoning for involvement, but I am also becoming more intrigued by, and in fact leaning toward a purely revolutionary act by the church to recognize Godly matrimony within the church, with or without any government involvement.
 
resurrection33

resurrection33

Banned
#4
Dec 19, 2009
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#4
Kerusso said:
I thought I might get a little attention with that title....the reason for the question is this: with the recent push for legality and acceptance of same sex "marriage", with several states now issuing licenses, from a Christian perspective, that is, that marriage is 'holy matrimony' between one man and one woman, is a state issued license necessary for Christians and the church to recognize as a legitimate union?

Let me ask it this way. Can or should the church consider issuing its own "license" for marriage purposes, with or without state license? I realize without a state license the two are not considered man and wife and would be exempt of certain privileges, such as inheritances and such, but nonetheless, if a Christian man and a Christian woman are in agreement, and a state issued license would be cause for distress, such as financial distress, can they be married by a Christian minister and be recognized by the Christian community as man and wife, without the state license?
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I suppose for a marriage to be legitimate, it needs to be in accordance with the Lord's laws. Same-sex "marriage" isn't marriage (Mark 10:6-8).
 
K

Kerusso

Guest
#5
#5
Exactly resurrection 33, exactly, but where might that leave the church if and when the same sex policy becomes the law of the land? Do we refrain from all 'state endorsed marriage' and perform our own, or do we go along to get along? I am pushing my state convention to strongly consider adopting a 'marriage recognition' within the confines of our denomination if nowhere else. What say you?
 
crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#6
Nov 24, 2012
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#6
I believe the best solution is for the Church to be allowed to marry a man/woman and not be forced by the State to marry same sex or even employ them in their church affairs.
 
resurrection33

resurrection33

Banned
#7
Dec 19, 2009
27,513
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#7
Kerusso said:
Exactly resurrection 33, exactly, but where might that leave the church if and when the same sex policy becomes the law of the land? Do we refrain from all 'state endorsed marriage' and perform our own, or do we go along to get along? I am pushing my state convention to strongly consider adopting a 'marriage recognition' within the confines of our denomination if nowhere else. What say you?
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You bring up a complicated issue. I say that because I'm having trouble answering your question. First, some denominations, including my own, are fighting over this issue. And I wonder if the government might in time try to force churches to recognize same-sex "marriages."

To make a long story short, I envision the day Mr. Smith and his "life partner," Mr. Jones, are introduced to us at a church function, and we just have to try to stifle our grins.
 
crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#8
Nov 24, 2012
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resurrection33 said:
You bring up a complicated issue. I say that because I'm having trouble answering your question. First, some denominations, including my own, are fighting over this issue. And I wonder if the government might in time try to force churches to recognize same-sex "marriages."

To make a long story short, I envision the day Mr. Smith and his "life partner," Mr. Jones, are introduced to us at a church function, and we just have to try to stifle our grins.
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no way. Would you stifle your grin over a thief who is proud of his thievery or a chíld mólester who has no regrets?
 
K

Kerusso

Guest
#9
#9
I don't dread their presence at a church function so much. But I cannot with clear conscience welcome them into church membership. I consider their presence as prefect opportunity for the Holy Spirit to do His work through His Word but at the same time, we can't compromise the Word and endorse their ..."arrangement" as legitimate. It is an issue that I believe the church would be well served to give serious consideration to now and not later. By the way, you mention the government trying to force its definition onto churches. I know this is a straw man, but I thought it was primarily the government that always insists on the alleged 'separation of church and state'. How is it that the church supposedly has no 'say so' in political matters but the state can encroach across that separation?
 
crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#10
Nov 24, 2012
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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

...''or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;''...
 
K

Kerusso

Guest
#11
#11
crossnote said:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

...''or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;''...
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Yes but the last part of that amendment which you quoted above is a loaded clause. Within Christianity and a Judeo-Christian governed society, it is fine but how might a muslim utilize that same right? On the other hand, the government seems to routinely stifle free speech when it comes to Christian expression, not mention other infractions against the constitution. Trying times we live in my friend...very trying times for the American Christian and likely to become more so.
 
crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#12
Nov 24, 2012
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#12
Kerusso said:
Yes but the last part of that amendment which you quoted above is a loaded clause. Within Christianity and a Judeo-Christian governed society, it is fine but how might a muslim utilize that same right? On the other hand, the government seems to routinely stifle free speech when it comes to Christian expression, not mention other infractions against the constitution. Trying times we live in my friend...very trying times for the American Christian and likely to become more so.
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I guess I don't see it. Islam should have the same freedoms from government encroachment as the Christians...no more, no less.
 
K

Kerusso

Guest
#13
#13
crossnote said:
I guess I don't see it. Islam should have the same freedoms from government encroachment as the Christians...no more, no less.
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How about in the case of 'honor killings', severing limbs, killing the infidels? Muslims are reportedly lobbying now for official school holidays to recognize their holy days in the state of Maryland. If that is approved, then how much farther can they reach?
 
crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#14
Nov 24, 2012
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#14
Kerusso said:
How about in the case of 'honor killings', severing limbs, killing the infidels? Muslims are reportedly lobbying now for official school holidays to recognize their holy days in the state of Maryland. If that is approved, then how much farther can they reach?
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Honor killings would be off limits because it's the governments job to protect life...that trumps 'religion'.
The problem with religious school holidays should be decided by each private religious school. A secular school run by the government should stick with secular holidays.
 
M

Married_Richenbrachen

Guest
#15
#15
Kerusso said:
I agree with your assessment of the government's reasoning for involvement, but I am also becoming more intrigued by, and in fact leaning toward a purely revolutionary act by the church to recognize Godly matrimony within the church, with or without any government involvement.
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Ah, I love this kind of talk! It always reminds me of this passage, although I'm not sure I'm using it in context.
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

I'd love to see what they do if they push it (i.e. the "marriage" can mean "sodomy" laws) through, and all of a sudden they have 30 or more million Christians issuing their own marriage certificates, not paying taxes, and not funding their wars, murders and otherwise wicked ways. It just might cause some of those weak, parasitic hearts to flutter and reconsider what kind of rebellion they're actually running. If/when that happens, we can also exonerate Kent Hovind for his stand against her.
 
Nautilus

Nautilus

Senior Member
#16
Jun 29, 2012
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#16
there is holy marriage( man and woman) and then there is state marriage. Why people have a hard time separating the two I dont really understand
 
crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#17
Nov 24, 2012
30,706
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#17
Nautilus said:
there is holy marriage( man and woman) and then there is state marriage. Why people have a hard time separating the two I dont really understand
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Ah Nautilus, just the person to ask this...'should a church be compelled by the state to perform same sex marriages'?
 
phil36

phil36

Senior Member
#18
Feb 12, 2009
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#18
Its one of the big issues of our time. Unfortunately, we as Christians need to change, before we can honestly expect secular society too. The big problem is that the governments (UK here) have under pressure from minority groups, have embraced equality and diversity. and thus have redefined what marriage is in the eyes of the law.

What can we do, is the big question?

One we all need to start looking at is our own Christian walk, are we individually and communally striving to be Holy? Are Christians giving good examples to society regarding proper biblical marriage?

I truly believe change will only happen when God's people take their walk seriously.

Secondly and most importantly, Prayer! lets be honest here with ourselves I now we can all pay lip service online and make our selves look good, but ask ourselves honestly have we sacrificed time day in day out praying about this, imagine what could happen if we all did? Imagine the answer to pray, if we just switched of the TV for 1 hr everyday and prayed earnestly to God for Change for renewal..every day of the year every Christian on their knees with tears in their eyes..

That's what will change our societies.

First we must make the effort to change.. and put prayer before our own interests.

I am sure that on the whole we all put prayer to the sidelines, maybe not all the time but I could guess the majority. And I am speaking personally aswell its a wake up call for me.
 
D

directline2iam

Banned
#19
Jul 25, 2013
1,329
19
0
#19
Kerusso said:
I thought I might get a little attention with that title....the reason for the question is this: with the recent push for legality and acceptance of same sex "marriage", with several states now issuing licenses, from a Christian perspective, that is, that marriage is 'holy matrimony' between one man and one woman, is a state issued license necessary for Christians and the church to recognize as a legitimate union?

Let me ask it this way. Can or should the church consider issuing its own "license" for marriage purposes, with or without state license? I realize without a state license the two are not considered man and wife and would be exempt of certain privileges, such as inheritances and such, but nonetheless, if a Christian man and a Christian woman are in agreement, and a state issued license would be cause for distress, such as financial distress, can they be married by a Christian minister and be recognized by the Christian community as man and wife, without the state license?
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God's Word says we are to obey our government and to pray for them in authority. The church has to follow suit. The church is under the authority of the Governing body which is of God. You can't have a separate license because the two would eventually disagree. It's alright to leave a church that isn't with the Word. There are good Christian churches out there yet. So no, they cannot be married by a Christian minister and be recognized by the Christian community as man and wife without the state license. Just because the government isn't going the way we would like doesn't mean God hates government, but He sure don't like some of the things the heathens do in it. We just have to work around them in a Godly way.
 
K

Kerusso

Guest
#20
#20
directline2iam said:
God's Word says we are to obey our government and to pray for them in authority. The church has to follow suit. The church is under the authority of the Governing body which is of God. You can't have a separate license because the two would eventually disagree. It's alright to leave a church that isn't with the Word. There are good Christian churches out there yet. So no, they cannot be married by a Christian minister and be recognized by the Christian community as man and wife without the state license. Just because the government isn't going the way we would like doesn't mean God hates government, but He sure don't like some of the things the heathens do in it. We just have to work around them in a Godly way.
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Thanks for your reply. I am drawing from it that you believe the church has an obligation to adhere to the state's authority then? I understand your reference from Romans 13 as well as Paul's admonishment to pray for all those in authority but I don't believe that means to defer to an antichristian position on anything. Peter said this: " “Whether it is right in the sight of God to give heed to you rather than to God, you be the judge;". We live in a time of very corrupt government that has done an about face when it comes to things pertaining to morality. I have to respectfully disagree here. Marriage is not an invention of government, it was constituted by God. Regardless of government endorsement, I'll not take part in any so called same sex marriage.
 
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