nephilim and biblical archaeology

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Kreation

Senior Member
Sep 19, 2013
169
4
0
#1
Hey,

I was studying the bible and have started reading sections about the nephilim and it made me think.....

How come we have found dinosaur bones but no nephilim bones? Have there been any archaeological finds that are legit concerning the bones? I have tried to do a google search but have not had any luck so far...

Also what is the oldest biblical archaeological find?

I'm really interested in this topic atm....so it would be good to hear your views

thanks :)
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
#3
The Nephilim where no taller then 6'9" or 7' so is my guess. There is a lot of speculation regarding them.
 
Mar 11, 2011
887
5
0
#4
Who for a certainty, really knows what a dinosaur looked like? There is a bit of an assumption there, as no one here is a living witness. All we are given really are the bones, and the educated guesses.

Seems like people in general trust scientists and preachers more than GOD Almighty.
 

Kreation

Senior Member
Sep 19, 2013
169
4
0
#5
The Nephilim where no taller then 6'9" or 7' so is my guess. There is a lot of speculation regarding them.

were there passages specifying the heights? If there are could you tell me them so I can look it up? Thanks :)
 

Shilo

Senior Member
Aug 31, 2011
1,974
102
63
#7
Deut 3:11 By the way, Bashan's King Og was the last of the Rephaim. His bed was made of iron. Isn't it still in the Ammonite town of Rabbah? By standard measurements, it was thirteen and a half feet long and six feet wide.

1 Samuel 17:4 And there came out from the camp of the Philistines a champion named Goliath ofGath, whose height was six cubits and a span

(9 feet, 6 inches), if measured by the 18 inch cubit, and 3.5 metres (just over 11 feet), if the 21 inch cubit is used
 
M

Married_Richenbrachen

Guest
#8
Some of the sites that talk about giants/nephilim do seem to contain hoax photographs etc., but I think there is enough evidence out there to convince us that these giants were real (i.e. scripture's use of the word nephilim doesn't necessarily mean they were giants, but from other passages, we know they were). It seems that once some bones are found though, it doesn't take long for them to be stolen away never to be seen again. There are reports of graveyards of these things being found.

There was an account I read about some Indians, and how they came to their tradition of raising their hand in friendship when greeting a stranger. The raising of the hand was to show that the Indian had five fingers, and not six. I'm pretty sure some of the stuff you will find on the subject will be false, but I also believe some of it will be true.
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
#9
were there passages specifying the heights? If there are could you tell me them so I can look it up? Thanks :)
there are none, maybe I should have included my statement as speculation too, I was going off evidence or lack there of.
 

jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
4,940
588
113
#10
Titus Flavius Josephus in his volume, Antiquities (Book 5.2.3) writes the following regarding the Rephaim/Nephilim:

“For which reason they removed their camp to Hebron; and when they had taken it, they slew all the inhabitants. There were till then left the race of giants, who had bodies so large, and countenances so entirely different from other men, that they were surprising to the sight, and terrible to the hearing. The bones of these men are still shown to this very day, unlike to any credible relations of other men. Now they gave this city to the Levites as an extraordinary reward, with the suburbs of two thousand cities; but the land there to belonging they gave as a free gift to Caleb, according to the injunctions of Moses. This Caleb was one of the spies which Moses sent into the land of Canaan. They also gave land for habitation to the posterity of Jethro, the Midianite, who was the father-in-law to Moses; for they had left their own country, and followed them, and accompanied them in the wilderness.”
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
#11
Deut 3:11 By the way, Bashan's King Og was the last of the Rephaim. His bed was made of iron. Isn't it still in the Ammonite town of Rabbah? By standard measurements, it was thirteen and a half feet long and six feet wide.

1 Samuel 17:4 And there came out from the camp of the Philistines a champion named Goliath ofGath, whose height was six cubits and a span

(9 feet, 6 inches), if measured by the 18 inch cubit, and 3.5 metres (just over 11 feet), if the 21 inch cubit is used
[h=2]How tall was Goliath? <How tall was Goliath? | Bible Apologetics>[/h] January 30, 2011 According to the Masoretic Text of the Old Testament[1] Goliath was six cubits and a span tall, 3.2 metres (9 feet, 6 inches), if measured by the 18 inch cubit, and 3.5 metres (just over 11 feet), if the 21 inch cubit is used. This is a height which is not only highly unlikely for any Iron Age man,[2] but far beyond what would have been considered a giant at the time.
The New English Translation (2005), describes Goliath’s height as just under seven feet, significantly below the traditional height.[3] A footnote in the NET explains the textual basis on which the translation committee made its decision.[4]
The evidence of the Masoretic Text is dated very late,[5] though this reading can be found in some earlier Greek translations of the Old Testament,[6] as well as the Latin Vulgate.[7] However, the textual evidence for a shorter height is more significant, being found in the oldest Greek and Hebrew texts.[8] [9]

  • The LXX:[10] 6 feet, 9 inches
  • 4QSam[SUP]a[/SUP]: [11] 6 feet, 9 inches
  • Josephus:[12] 6 feet, 9 inches
  • Lucian recension:[13] 6 feet, 9 inches
  • Codex Vaticanus:[14] 6 feet, 9 inches
  • Codex Alexandrinus:[15] 6 feet, 9 inches
Some object that Goliath’s weapons and armour make little sense for a warrior shorter than the traditional reading.[16] However, such objections are not well founded.[17] [18]
Modern scholarship prefers the reading of the earliest texts.[19] A man of this height would still have been considered a giant in the Iron Age.[20] Some reference sources cite medical conditions such as acromegaly[21] which could have resulted in the height in the Masoretic Text,[22] a suggestion found even in some professional medical works.[23]
Although possible, it is unlikely such a man would have been an effective warrior given the disabilities typical of such conditions,[24] and since acromegaly affects humans in middle age it would have been very rarely seen given the average Iron Age life expectancy of less than 40 years.[25] [26]
[HR][/HR] [1] The medieval Hebrew text on which almost all modern English translations of the Old Testament are based.

[2] ‘Archaeology has shown that the heroes buried in the “royal tombs” at Mycenae were 1.76-1.80 mtr. tall, while the height of the average man at that period (according to the skeletons excavated) was 1.64 mtr. both in the Aegean lands and in Canaan.’, Margalith, ‘The Sea Peoples in the Bible’, p. 49 (1994).

[3] 1 Samuel 17:4 Then a champion came out from the camp of the Philistines. His name was Goliath; he was from Gath. He was close to seven feet tall.

[4] ‘[SUP]7[/SUP] tc Heb “his height was six cubits and a span” (cf. KJV, NASB, NRSV). A cubit was approximately eighteen inches, a span nine inches. So, according to the Hebrew tradition, Goliath was about nine feet, nine inches tall (cf. NIV, CEV, NLT “over nine feet”; NCV “nine feet, four inches”; TEV “nearly 3 metres”). However, some Greek witnesses, Josephus, and a manuscript of 1 Samuel from Qumran read “four cubits and a span” here, that is, about six feet, nine inches (cf. NAB “six and a half feet”). This seems more reasonable; it is likely that Goliath’s height was exaggerated as the story was retold. See P. K. McCarter, I Samuel (AB), 286, 291.’, NET, footnote on 1 Samuel 17:4 (1[SUP]st[/SUP] ed. 2005).

[5]‘What is the evidence for the variant which reads six cubits and a span (9’9″)? All of the manuscripts of the MT have this reading. However, one should keep in mind that the earliest MT manuscript evidence that we have for 1 Samuel is the Aleppo Codex, produced in AD 935. Likewise, the Leningrad Codex, the Hebrew manuscript on which BHK and BHS are based, and thus the major Hebrew text on which most of our English OT versions are based, was completed in AD 1010. Thus there is no extant Hebrew text any earlier than AD 935 that puts Goliath at six cubits and a span.’, Hays, ‘Reconsidering the Height of Goliath’, Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society (48.5.705), (2005).

[6]However, the variant reading “six cubits and a span” is probably much older than these MT manuscripts. Symmachus, for example, reflects the six cubits and a span height in his translation. Symmachus was a Jew who around AD 200 prepared a Greek translation of the OT for the Jewish community in Caesarea of Palestine. His goal was to produce a Greek translation that was an accurate translation of the Hebrew.7 The fact that he gives Goliath’s height as six cubits and a span is strong evidence that this variant reading was already present in the proto-MT or Vorlage to the MT, that is, the Hebrew text tradition that by this time had become the standardized text of the Jews. Likewise, Origen, in his Greek translation found in the fifth column of his Hexapla, includes the longer version of 1-2 Samuel found in the MT and also lists Goliath’s height as six cubits and a span.’, ibid., p. 705.

[7]Jerome’s fourth-century AD Latin translation (the Vulgate), which appears to follow the Hebrew proto-MT faithfully, likewise puts Goliath at six cubits and a span. The Vulgate gradually grew in popularity in the Western churches and eventually became the “received text” for the Western churches, thus codifying the 9’9″ giant into Western culture.’, ibid., p. 705.

[8]‘However, the textual evidence for the variant reading of “four cubits and a span” is significantly stronger.’, ibid., p. 706; Hays (pp. 705-706), notes that Codex Venetus, an 8[SUP]th[/SUP] century manuscript (also known as ‘Codex Venetus 5’, a Greek manuscript of the Old and New Testaments), has the reading ‘five cubits and a span’ (8 feet 3 inches), but dismisses this as a rogue reading unsupported by any other textual evidence.

[9]‘Thus the textual witnesses for the variant that cites Goliath’s height at four cubits and a span (6’9″) include: (1) 4QSama, the oldest extant Hebrew manuscript for this text; (2) Vaticanus, the oldest complete Greek codex of the Bible; (3) Josephus, a non-biblical first-century ad reference; (4) the Lucian Greek recension, a third-century ad witness; and (5) other early codices such as Alexandrinus.’, ibid., p. 705.

[10]Commonly known as the ‘Septuagint’, a Greek translation of the Old Testament, completed no later than the mid-2[SUP]nd[/SUP] century BCE.

[11]One of the Hebrew copies of the book of Samuel found among the ‘Dead Sea Scrolls’, this text contains 1-2 Samuel, and although parts of the text are damaged, 1 Samuel 17:3-6 is not; this text dates to around 50 BCE and is the oldest Hebrew copy of this part of 1 Samuel, so it is significant that it has the shorter height.

[12] Josephus, ‘Antiquities of the Jews’, 6.171 (1[SUP]st[/SUP] century CE); Josephus was a 1[SUP]st[/SUP] century Jewish historian, and although it is not likely that Josephus had access to historical records of Goliath other than the Biblical texts, the height he gives demonstrates that this was already recorded in the Hebrew Bible by his day, long before the taller height.

[13] This is an early 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] century revision of the LXX text.

[14] A significant 4[SUP]th[/SUP] century Greek manuscript containing almost all of the Old and New Testaments.

[15] A significant 5[SUP]th[/SUP] century Greek manuscript containing almost all of the Old and New Testaments.

[16] ‘Some commentators point to the huge size of Goliath’s spear, “with a shaft like a weaver’s beam” and “a point that weighed six hundred shekels” (about 15 pounds) and conclude that this huge spear size argues for a nine and a half foot tall Goliath. Likewise, they underscore the massive weight of his armor (125-130 pounds) and conclude that the size of the armor fits better with a 9’9″ giant than with a 6’9″ warrior.’, Hays, ‘Reconsidering the Height of Goliath’, Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society (48.5.708), (2005).

[17] ‘However, first of all, the text does not say that Goliath’s spear was as big or as long or as heavy as a weaver’s beam. It just says that the “shaft” (lit. “arrow”) of his spear was as (D) a weaver’s beam. Yagael Yadin points out that the comparison between Goliath’s spear and a weaver’s beam is not saying that the shaft of the spear was as big as a large timbered crossbeam of a loom. Rather, the narrator is describing a looped cord or rope that was attached to the spear that enabled a warrior to throw it harder and further. This looped cord looked somewhat like the cord loops of a weaver’s beam; thus the analogy.15 It has nothing to do with the size of his spear.16 Thus it also has no bearing on the size of Goliath. Likewise, the six hundred shekel (fifteen pounds) weight of the iron spearhead certainly would not require a ten foot tall giant to throw it..’, ibid., p. 708; spears were also commonly used to thrust at short range (requiring less effort), rather than thrown (note Goliath does not throw his spear).

[18]Yadin provides pictures of a real weaver’s beam as
well as ancient paintings of soldiers from the ancient Near East holding such looped weapons.8 His evidence is so convincing that, as I point out, the majority of commentators on 1 Samuel follow Yadin.9’, Hays, ‘A Response to Clyde Billington’, Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society (50.3.515), (2007).

[19] ‘In the MT, Goliath’s height is given as “six cubits and a span” (1 Sam 17:4), which would be about nine feet and nine inches, a true giant. However, LXX Codex Vaticanus and the Lucianic recension, as well as 4QSama and Josephus (Ant 6.171) all give Goliath’s height as “four cubits and a span,” about six feet and nine inches. Since the expected tendency would be to exaggerate the height of David’s opponent, the latter reading, according to which Goliath would still be a giant (albeit among men), is to be preferred (see McCarter 1 Samuel AB, 286).’, Ehrlich, ‘Goliath’, in Freedman (ed.), ‘The Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary’, volume 2, p. 1073 (1996).

[20] A 6 foot 9 inch Goliath (2.05 metres), would have been at least 20 centimetres taller than the heroes found in Iron Age Mycenaen tombs, and 30-40 centimetres taller than the average Iron Age man; this proves that even the heroes of the time were only 10-15 centimetres taller than the average, and a man 30 centimetres taller than these heroes would have been a real giant, almost 40 centimetres taller than the average man (Saul need not have been more than 6 feet tall to be head and shoulders above all in Israel, and at 6 feet 9 inches Goliath would still have been significantly taller).

[21] A pituitary gland disorder resulting in giantism.

[22] ‘However, D. Kellermann suggests that Goliath’s symptoms in 1 Samuel 17 match those of pathological gigantism (a pituitary condition known as acromegaly), including a tunnel-vision type of visual defect, which David presumably took advantage of in defeating him. If so, then the MT reading need not be considered an exaggeration.’, Li, ‘Goliath’, in Arnold & Williamson (eds.), ‘Dictionary of the Old Testament: Historical books’, p. 356 (2005).

[23] ‘The biblical giant Goliath may have been afflicted with acromegaly.’, Ember & Ember, ‘Encyclopedia of Medical Anthropology’, p. 392 (2004).

[24] Aside from various deformities, digestive problems, and high blood pressure, premature death is also a danger with acromegaly.

[25] Nevertheless, evidence from an Egyptian tomb dated well over 1,000 years before Goliath does indicate that acromegaly could occur earlier in life even during the Bronze Age; ‘The remains of a large adult male, probably in his late 20s or early 30s, from a Fifth Dynasty tomb (2494–2345 BC)…This individual exhibits characteristics of pituitary gigantism’, Mulhern, ‘A probable case of gigantism in a fifth Dynasty skeleton from the Western Cemetery at Giza, Egypt’, International Journal of Osteoarchaeology (15.4.261), (2005).

[26] The Bible mentions a number of champions from Gath, some with physical abnormalities (2 Samuel 21:20, 1 Chronicles 20:6), all apparently related by descent from ‘Rapha’, possibly ‘the giant’ (2 Samuel 21:16, 18, 20, 22, 1 Chronicles 20:4, 6, 8), so it is more likely that Goliath’s height was the result of a family genetic trait than the result of a later medical condition.
 
Jun 30, 2011
2,521
35
0
#12
Hey,

I was studying the bible and have started reading sections about the nephilim and it made me think.....

How come we have found dinosaur bones but no nephilim bones? Have there been any archaeological finds that are legit concerning the bones? I have tried to do a google search but have not had any luck so far...

Also what is the oldest biblical archaeological find?

I'm really interested in this topic atm....so it would be good to hear your views

thanks :)

The actual word is nephil - which means to fall - men who knew God, but fell away, or just great men of war - I don't think they were half angel half women - people tend to believe that they were the reason of the flood - which God makes it clear that it's from man's sin. When people use verses that say - we were like grasshoppers to them - the armies of the nations around them were warrior tribes - the Jews were not - they were farmers

John MacArthur has a pretty good teaching on it. Check it out
 
M

Married_Richenbrachen

Guest
#13
When people use verses that say - we were like grasshoppers to them - the armies of the nations around them were warrior tribes - the Jews were not - they were farmers
Surely if this was what the Israelites meant, this is what they would have said. "We are as farmers compared to barbarians", or something? I think the reason they used the grasshopper analogy was because it was accurate - the enemy were big.
 
N

nathan3

Guest
#14
Hey,

I was studying the bible and have started reading sections about the nephilim and it made me think.....

How come we have found dinosaur bones but no nephilim bones? Have there been any archaeological finds that are legit concerning the bones? I have tried to do a google search but have not had any luck so far...

Also what is the oldest biblical archaeological find?

I'm really interested in this topic atm....so it would be good to hear your views

thanks :)
Nephilim bones ? The word means to fall, fallen ones, the fallen angels... The men of renown, ( for their evil ) are the giants, you'll find evidence for them in the structures they built, and the bones they left. I cant think of any off hand.
 
R

Rebel

Guest
#15
nephilim.jpg

A.- Present day modern man which averages about 6-feet tall + or - several inches or more.
B.- 15-foot human skeleton found in southeast Turkey in late 1950's in the Euphrates valley during road construction. Many tombs containing giants were uncovered here.

C.- Maximinus Thrax Ceaser of Rome 235-238 A.D. This was an 8' 6" skeleton.

D.- Goliath was about 9 feet + or - a few inches. I Samuel 17:4 late 11th century.

E.- King Og spoken of in Deuteronomy 3:11 whose iron bedstead was approximately 14-feet by 6-feet wide. King Og was at least 12-feet tall, yet some claim up to 18.

F.- A 19'6" human skeleton found in 1577 A.D. under an overturned oak tree in the Canton of Lucerne.

G.- 23-foot tall skeleton found in 1456 A.D. beside a river in Valence, France.

H.- A 25' 6 " skeleton found in 1613 A.D. near the castle of Chaumont in France. This was claimed to be a nearly complete find.

I.- Almost beyond comprehension or believability was the find of the two separate 36-foot human remains uncovered by Carthaginians somewhere between 200-600 B.C.

a bit more info on the nephilim they were the gods recorded in mythology

We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them." - Numbers 13:33
 
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M

Married_Richenbrachen

Guest
#16
I.- Almost beyond comprehension or believability was the find of the two separate 36-foot human remains uncovered by Carthaginians somewhere between 200-600 B.C. [...]

We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them." - Numbers 13:33
The giant bones at (I) really put those words into perspective! We'd be frightened to fight those guys even today, with all our modern weapons! I wonder what became of those bones?
 
R

Rebel

Guest
#17
there were reports that when the skeletons were dug up they crumbled apart those that did stay intact were carried off and never seen of again
 
S

sally555

Guest
#18
giant.jpg
hey there..i am a firm believer in the inevitability of the discovery of proof in a literal biblical history. i was sent a photo years ago of an archeologist unearthing giant bones.i believe the source.(my friend for 40 years :)) i have the original photo and its really old. on it is written "Death Valley 1947". it was among others in a publishing house in washington.