Question to those who believes the spirit does not survive the death of the body.

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Aug 5, 2013
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#21
Question: Why would Jesus tell a story of human spirits surviving death if this is false doctrine?
Because Jesus believed it to be true, even if it isn't.

It isn't "annihilation" if there isn't something being destroyed. Consider this: when you die, your "voice" isn't being destroyed. Your voice feels like an ethereal thing without substance, but science has given us the ability to see it for what it really is, a compression of air waves caused by vibrations in your voice box. You can record your voice on a device sensitive enough to pick it up because it has physical substance. The same is true of your thoughts, which are merely firings of neurons in certain patterns. It "feels" like an ethereal, mysterious spirit but your thoughts can be seen with a device sensitive to picking it up (an FMRI). This is obvious when your brain malfunctions -- problems like amnesia don't make sense when your memory is seen as a soul-function, but make perfect sense when seen as a function of the brain.

So, when your body dies, nothing lives after it because there is simply nothing there to live after it. Jesus didn't know better in the same way that you don't know better, and it's no more mysterious that he believed in souls than it is that you do, and needs no more explanation than your own belief.
 
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Sanashankar

Guest
#22
I have a question to those who believe the spirit of man does not survive the death of the body.

Some call this annihilationism or soul sleep. Whatever it is called, Here is my question.

The story of Lazarus the beggar and the rich man in Luke 16:19-31 has two men who died and their spirits go to Hades. One goes to a place of fire and torment while the other goes to a place of rest. My question is simple:

Question: Why would Jesus tell a story of human spirits surviving death if this is false doctrine?

Honestly, I feel there is only one solution to this question. Human spirits do in fact survive death. I doubt Jesus would ever tell a story or a parable if it includes false doctrine.
You guys dont believe the scripture, and consider Jesus Christ to be a liar by telling all these.

"Now the poor man came to die and he is carried away by messengers into Abraham’s bosom."

Literally????Impossible. This statement if taken literally is neither historical nor Scriptural. Many say this represents Lazarus in Heaven. How, pray tell, could Lazarus be in Heaven while his Lord was still on the earth?

"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the firstfruit of those who are reposing." (I Cor. 15:20).

Abraham wasn’t the "firstfruit." Lazarus wasn’t the "firstfruit." JESUS CHRIST WAS THE FIRSTFRUIT OF THEM THAT SLEPT! The latter fruit, Paul tells us, "are [still] reposing."
Jesus plainly said, not only had David not ascended into the heavens, but that

"NO MAN has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven."(John 3:13).

So how can it be said that at the same time our Lord was telling us that no man has ascended up to heaven, that Lazarus and Abraham are already up in heaven?
 
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Sanashankar

Guest
#23
"By faith Abraham ... sojourns in the land of promise ... he waited for the city having foundations, whose Artificer and Architect is God ... In faith DIED ALL THESE [Abraham included], being not requited with the promises ... for He [God] makes ready for them a city" (Heb. 11:8,9,10,13,16).

Abraham had not yet as of the writing of the book of Hebrews received the promises God made to him. Besides Abraham was not promised Heaven, but this earth along with King David (Jer. 30:9) and the Twelve Apostles who will be ruling over the twelve tribes of Israel on this earth (Rev. 5:10). And the "City," New Jerusalem, comes down from heaven to the New Earth.

By the way, after Christ’s resurrection, we read that King David as well was also still dead.

"...David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day..." "For David is NOT ascended into the heavens..." (Acts 2:29 & 34).

So consider: At the time Christ taught this parable, Abraham was STILL DEAD, David (a man after God’s own heart) was STILL DEAD and the Scripture specifically tells us that David DID NOT ASCEND INTO HEAVEN. Then to remove all doubt and speculation regarding heaven, Christ plainly stated that, "NO MAN HAS ASCENDED INTO HEAVEN!"

"Now the rich man also died, and was entombed. And in the unseen [Gk: hades], lifting up his eyes..." (Ver. 23)

Impossible. He died, was entombed, and lifted up his eyes? Where did he get a body in hades, seeing that they just sealed his body in a tomb? Have you never heard of exhuming a body from a grave? Six days, six months, six years after death, when they open a grave, the body is still there. And it’s usually rotten and the "eyes" are decayed away.
 
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Sanashankar

Guest
#24
...he is seeing Abraham from afar..."

Impossible. The man is enveloped in "flames" and can clearly identify two personalities from "afar" across a great chasm? Not with human eyes.

"And he shouting, said..."

Impossible. Proof: Psalm 31:17--"...let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave [Heb. SHEOL]. There it is! There is no talking and no shouting in sheol. If anyone can literally "shout" in hades or sheol they make God a liar.



"...send Lazarus that he should be dipping the tip of his finger in water and cooling my tongue..."

Impossible. If someone were in a literal fire they would not be asking for a drop of water for their tongue. Their skin and eyes would be in much greater pain than their tongue! The tongue is at least somewhat protected in the mouth cavity. Now if anyone is so silly as to debate me on this issue, let them jump into a fire and see for themselves which burns most--the eyes and skin or the tongue? Besides a drop on the tip of one’s finger would be less than useless. It would have no effect. None. It's a parable. This language is figurative.

"...I am tormented [pained] in this flame."

Impossible. Yes, it is possible to be "tormented [pained] in flame," however, it is impossible to calmly talk about it while it is happening! If his body were human so as to have a nervous system and feel pain, then of necessity that same body would burn up. It is the destruction of the skin cells that is causing the pain. Within seconds the skin no longer pains (it’s dead). Now it is the deeper flesh that pains.



"Now Abraham said, Child, be reminded that you got your good thing in your life, and Lzarus likewise evil things."

If this Rich man is really being pictured literally in a hellhole of eternal torture, why then didn’t Abraham say to him something like this: "Scoundrel, be reminded that you were a liar, cheat, robber, blasphemer, drunkard, murderer, ungodly, unholy, unrepentant, incorrigible, piece of slime in your life,so burn in Hell for ever." But no, the Rich man is accused of no such things.
 
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Sanashankar

Guest
#25
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]
THE RICH MAN
[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]
LAZARUS
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]By all appearances and descriptions, the Rich man was an educated, well-dressed, well-groomed and well-mannered person who gave food to the poor, fed the stray dogs, had a merry heart and cheerful disposition, and loved his family. [/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]By all appearances and descriptions, Lazarus was poor, diseased, probably uneducated, poorly dressed, poorly groomed, hungry, a homeless person in the streets. [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]We know that God blessed him, because he "received GOOD" And Jas. 1:17 says, "Every good gift ... comes down from the Father."
[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]He was obviously not blessed of God. According to TBN this man just didn't have faith to be healed. And wasn't blessed because he didn't obey God. He wasn't very thankful. He never did say: "Oh, by the way, Mr. Rich man, Thank you for all the food you always gave me," Did he? [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]And notice carefully what this parable does not say:
[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]It doesn't say Lazarus was good, kind, faithful, righteous, or loved God.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]It doesn't say that he was an evil man, ever hurt anyone, stole, murdered, cursed God, didn't believe in God, or ever did anything bad. It says nothing negative about the Rich man.[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]In fact, it really doesn’t say one, single, positive, anything about him what--so--ever![/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
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Sanashankar

Guest
#26
You know, if this parable is literal, Abraham is on the wrong side! Abraham possessed many more of the qualities of the rich man than he did of Lazarus (not actually, but if we take this parable literally)! Abraham was very rich, loved his family, was concerned for the welfare of others, provided for his servants, was respectful of authority (especially of God), was tremendously blessed of God and had a life of many good things.

According to the majority of Christendom’s interpretation of this story, Abraham should be in Hell!

"Yet now here he is being consoled, yet you are in pain [adunaoI]."

If Lazarus is in heaven, where are all the saints? Where is there a reward? Where is Christ? Where is the happiness and joy?

Lazarus is "consoled." This word in Greek is used in conjunction with someone who is "in distress." So Lazarus is being "consoled in his distress." Doesn’t sound like much of a Heaven to me. And the rich man is "in pain." Why? It doesn’t say he did anything wrong, or evil, so why is he in pain? Who judged him? When? For what?

He has been sentenced without being judged!This man could not have been judged, because when our Lord spoke this parable, "The Judgment" was yet future.

"Verily, I am saying to you, More tolerable will it be for the land of Sodom and the land of Gomorrah in that DAY OF JUDGING than for that city." (Matt. 10:15)

"Men, Ninevites, will be rising in the judging with this generation and will be condemning it..." (Mat. 12:41)

The "evil" men of Sodom have not yet been judged. The "righteous" men of Nineveh have not yet risen or been judged. Bur rich man and Lazarus is judged???
 
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Sanashankar

Guest
#27
"You go to Hell for rejecting Christ’s sacrifice." Not only didn’t the rich man literally reject Christ’s sacrifice, but it was literally impossible for him to literally do so.

When Christ taught this parable (Luke 16) HE WAS NOT AS YET SACRIFICED (Luke 23)! So how, pray tell, could the Rich man have "rejected a sacrifice" Who had not yet even been sacrificed?

The reason for so many desiring to take this parable literally is an attempt to add credence to the heretical teaching that God Almighty is going to torture the vast majority of all humanity who has ever lived by burning their flesh with real fire in a hellhole of insane pain for all eternity.

Read more on L. Ray Smith - Lazarus and the Rich Man
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#28
Because Jesus believed it to be true, even if it isn't.

It isn't "annihilation" if there isn't something being destroyed. Consider this: when you die, your "voice" isn't being destroyed. Your voice feels like an ethereal thing without substance, but science has given us the ability to see it for what it really is, a compression of air waves caused by vibrations in your voice box. You can record your voice on a device sensitive enough to pick it up because it has physical substance. The same is true of your thoughts, which are merely firings of neurons in certain patterns. It "feels" like an ethereal, mysterious spirit but your thoughts can be seen with a device sensitive to picking it up (an FMRI). This is obvious when your brain malfunctions -- problems like amnesia don't make sense when your memory is seen as a soul-function, but make perfect sense when seen as a function of the brain.

So, when your body dies, nothing lives after it because there is simply nothing there to live after it. Jesus didn't know better in the same way that you don't know better, and it's no more mysterious that he believed in souls than it is that you do, and needs no more explanation than your own belief.
Sometimes I read things here that just stun my reasoning. Jesus didn't know any better? All knowing God didn't know any better? Please tell me this is a typo. Please tell me you do not consider yourself a Christian.

The soul/spirit given by God to the body God formed from the earth is eternal just like God. That soul/spirit will live forever somewhere. Either in the presence of God or in the absence of God. The body is of the earth and returns to the earth. The soul/spirit is in the image of God and returns to God. It is appointed unto man once to die and after this the judgment.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
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Sanashankar

Guest
#29
Sometimes I read things here that just stun my reasoning. Jesus didn't know any better? All knowing God didn't know any better? Please tell me this is a typo. Please tell me you do not consider yourself a Christian.

The soul/spirit given by God to the body God formed from the earth is eternal just like God. That soul/spirit will live forever somewhere. Either in the presence of God or in the absence of God. The body is of the earth and returns to the earth. The soul/spirit is in the image of God and returns to God. It is appointed unto man once to die and after this the judgment.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
The spirit of course goes to God, but where does the bible say that the soul and spirit is same???

Ec 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The spirit is the breath of life that God gave to make man a "living soul"

Gn 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

So when the spirit goes back to the God, man becomes a "dead soul", right?

Re 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead [man]: and every living soul died in the sea.

Soul is different, spirit is different

Jb 12:10 In whose hand [is] the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.

1Th 5:23 . And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless ...

Soul is there only when there is the spirit and a body.When the spirit goes to God and the body decay there is no soul. God has to give us a spiritual body and the spirit back for us to have soul again.And it is clear from the bible that we will be given spiritual body

1C 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 
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reject-tech

Guest
#30
For me it's a time waster not to move away from the argument of yes or no.

Unless someone thinks they can talk to their dead loved ones, or that they they can interfere with the living, neither of which I see in scripture -
then absolutely what difference does it make? It proves no point useful for salvation either way to me.
I myself don't bother with it and believe way too many people waste a lot of brain power and study time "touching corpses"

If Jesus spoke of literal dead people, He contradicted Himself in three ways on the topic -
Mindless
Asleep
Conscious

If Jesus spoke of people being both physically alive and spiritually dead at the same time, then it makes more sense to me.
If we touch a corpse, we are unclean until we wash in ash water and put the issue to rest.
 
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danschance

Guest
#31
So if this is not a parable, and men are lost by not listening to the teachings of Mosheh, how is this reconciled to those who say "you will burn in the hellfires for doing ANYTHING Mosheh said" ??? Most al here know my views, but here im not stating my view just asking what is done with this part of the parable/true story.

Luke 16:29-31, "Abraham said to him; They have Mosheh and the Prophets; let them listen to them. Then he said: No, father Abraham! For if one came back from the dead to them, they would repent! But he said to him; If they will not listen to Mosheh and the Prophets, they would not be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Honestly, I don't care if it is a parable or not. The question is why would Jesus tell a story/parable/whatever about two men who died and their spirits went to Hell and the othe went to Abraham's bosom where he met thee Abraham who had died thousands of years earlier, if the spirit of man does not survive death? If that is false doctrine (as you believe) why would this be in scripture?
 
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danschance

Guest
#32
What Jesus taught wasn't false doctrine.

Notice that this story named the characters except the rich man, in the background of an actual place. Why would this be the only parable out of the rest Jesus taught, to have these characteristics?

If someone can find another parable that names the characters, includes a patriarch, and describes or tells of an actual place like this? I think this is an actual story that we are taught to learn from, rather than a parable of something else.
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I agree with you. It does not seem to be a parable. It seems to be a real story to me. The problem is that some people do not believe a human spirit can survive death. They teach soul sleep or annihilation of the spirit upon death. So for those people who think spirit of man can not live on after death, why would Jesus tell a story about it? That does not make any sense to me that Jesus would teach a concept unless it is true.
 
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danschance

Guest
#33
Hades just means the grave, to apply it to anything else is greek mythology IMO. I did post info for both sides to be fair tho.

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

1) name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions
2) Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead
3) later use of this word: the grave, death, hell

In Biblical Greek it is associated with Orcus, the infernal regions,
a dark and dismal place in the very depths of the earth, the common
receptacle of disembodied spirits. Usually Hades is just the abode of
the wicked, Lu. 16:23, Rev. 20:13,14; a very uncomfortable place. TDNT.

—Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)
From G0001 (as a negative particle) and G1492; properly unseen, that is, "Hades" or the place (state) of departed souls:—grave, hell.
Now you are just telling us what you believe, which is nice and all, but you have not tackled my question.
 
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danschance

Guest
#34
You guys dont believe the scripture, and consider Jesus Christ to be a liar by telling all these.

"Now the poor man came to die and he is carried away by messengers into Abraham’s bosom."

Literally????Impossible. This statement if taken literally is neither historical nor Scriptural. Many say this represents Lazarus in Heaven. How, pray tell, could Lazarus be in Heaven while his Lord was still on the earth?

"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the firstfruit of those who are reposing." (I Cor. 15:20).

Abraham wasn’t the "firstfruit." Lazarus wasn’t the "firstfruit." JESUS CHRIST WAS THE FIRSTFRUIT OF THEM THAT SLEPT! The latter fruit, Paul tells us, "are [still] reposing."
Jesus plainly said, not only had David not ascended into the heavens, but that

"NO MAN has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven."(John 3:13).

So how can it be said that at the same time our Lord was telling us that no man has ascended up to heaven, that Lazarus and Abraham are already up in heaven?
I understand what you are saying but it doesn't answer my question. If you believe the spirit of man does not survive death, then why would Jesus tell a story about two men who died and they continued to live, one in a place of torment and the other in with Abraham who had died long ago? Why would Jesus include this into scripture if it is false doctrine? Would Jesus ever include false doctrine into scripture and not tell us about it?
 
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danschance

Guest
#35
For me it's a time waster not to move away from the argument of yes or no.

Unless someone thinks they can talk to their dead loved ones, or that they they can interfere with the living, neither of which I see in scripture -
then absolutely what difference does it make? It proves no point useful for salvation either way to me.
I myself don't bother with it and believe way too many people waste a lot of brain power and study time "touching corpses"

If Jesus spoke of literal dead people, He contradicted Himself in three ways on the topic -
Mindless
Asleep
Conscious

If Jesus spoke of people being both physically alive and spiritually dead at the same time, then it makes more sense to me.
If we touch a corpse, we are unclean until we wash in ash water and put the issue to rest.
The vast majority of Christians do not follow the Mosaic laws. Not even sure why you would mention communicating with the dead when that is forbidden in scripture. Your post does not answer my question.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#36
The spirit of course goes to God, but where does the bible say that the soul and spirit is same???

Ec 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The spirit is the breath of life that God gave to make man a "living soul"

Gn 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

So when the spirit goes back to the God, man becomes a "dead soul", right?

Re 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead [man]: and every living soul died in the sea.

Soul is different, spirit is different

Jb 12:10 In whose hand [is] the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.

1Th 5:23 . And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless ...

Soul is there only when there is the spirit and a body.When the spirit goes to God and the body decay there is no soul. God has to give us a spiritual body and the spirit back for us to have soul again.And it is clear from the bible that we will be given spiritual body

1C 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

You have your work cut out for you if you are going to attempt to differentiate between soul and spirit, life and awareness. God Who is Spirit and yet has personality how do we comprehend such things? How do we separate Who God is from what God is? God cannot die, God is eternal. Apart from the body of flesh man cannot die. Our body can perish but our soul/spirit cannot cease to exist. That's why condemnation is eternal.

None of the scriptures you cite contradicts the eternal nature of mans soul/spirit.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

duewell

Senior Member
Mar 5, 2011
350
9
18
#37
on 9-11-2013 my cousin passed away from a heart attack in wisconsin in the early morning. i went grocery shopping that day in las vegas. as i was standing looking at items, i heard the voice of my cousin say "hey david" as if he was right next to me.

this is just one of many things that have been going on in my life since 2009. we are all in a spiritual war during our lives and it is foolish for any to teach that after the flesh dies our spirit doesn't live on. Jesus said "if you are alive and you believe in me you will never die." people who believe in Jesus have physically died, the spirit does not die. you don't fall asleep or take a nap or lose consciousness. your body dies and your spirit lives on. where it goes depends on you.

duewell
mark 4 v 11-13
 
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Bryancampbell

Guest
#38
You guys dont believe the scripture, and consider Jesus Christ to be a liar by telling all these.

"Now the poor man came to die and he is carried away by messengers into Abraham’s bosom."

Literally????Impossible. This statement if taken literally is neither historical nor Scriptural. Many say this represents Lazarus in Heaven. How, pray tell, could Lazarus be in Heaven while his Lord was still on the earth?

"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the firstfruit of those who are reposing." (I Cor. 15:20).

Abraham wasn’t the "firstfruit." Lazarus wasn’t the "firstfruit." JESUS CHRIST WAS THE FIRSTFRUIT OF THEM THAT SLEPT! The latter fruit, Paul tells us, "are [still] reposing."
Jesus plainly said, not only had David not ascended into the heavens, but that

"NO MAN has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven."(John 3:13).

So how can it be said that at the same time our Lord was telling us that no man has ascended up to heaven, that Lazarus and Abraham are already up in heaven?

Lol we aren't talking about heaven. But paradise. Too many people think those are the same places.

\
I agree with you. It does not seem to be a parable. It seems to be a real story to me. The problem is that some people do not believe a human spirit can survive death. They teach soul sleep or annihilation of the spirit upon death. So for those people who think spirit of man can not live on after death, why would Jesus tell a story about it? That does not make any sense to me that Jesus would teach a concept unless it is true.
I don't know any scripture that says they disappear or become annihilated after death. But sleep until the resurrection I do believe, ours goes to God?. I guess I'm pretty ignorant of your statement lol. But of course spirits live after death, spirits are immortal in the sense. If you could destroy a spirit's existence, Satan could have been long gone. Who knows.
 
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nathan3

Guest
#39
I have a question to those who believe the spirit of man does not survive the death of the body.
Why start a thread asking ignorant people what they think ? If you yourself believe this idea is wrong, then why ask people who you know probably wont call much of any scripture up here, what their thoughts are about something you already know is wrong ?
It seems counter productive to me. And you might end up being as confused as they by the time you finish reading all their responses .
 
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overcomer2

Guest
#40
I believe this fore taste of things to come. I believe Abraham and Lazarus wait like all the dead for judgement. I believe Moses and Elijah have a very special place in the future as the two prophets who show up around tribulation.

One thing here I see different is that I believe we are a body, soul, and spirit. So, lets say two flies are on the table one dead one alive. You can see they both have a body. One still has the Spirit of life while the other the Spirit of Life has gone back to the Father who is life. Flies/animals do not have souls. So when a person dies the body goes to the ground to return as dust, the Spirit of life goes back to the Father and the soul waits for judgement.