Question to those who believes the spirit does not survive the death of the body.

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danschance

Guest
#1
I have a question to those who believe the spirit of man does not survive the death of the body.

Some call this annihilationism or soul sleep. Whatever it is called, Here is my question.

The story of Lazarus the beggar and the rich man in Luke 16:19-31 has two men who died and their spirits go to Hades. One goes to a place of fire and torment while the other goes to a place of rest. My question is simple:

Question: Why would Jesus tell a story of human spirits surviving death if this is false doctrine?

Honestly, I feel there is only one solution to this question. Human spirits do in fact survive death. I doubt Jesus would ever tell a story or a parable if it includes false doctrine.
 
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letti

Guest
#2
I't isn't a false doctrine it's the truth.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
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#3
My view on this is it's a parable, so the entire point is to use the story to metaphorically teach a truth.

What I got from this parable is:

One better get right with Yahweh while they are still living, by seeking Him through prayer and His word, and if that is not enough they are lost.

IMO anything else in the parable is irrelavant, it is only the main point of it that matters. You know the parable with the ten virgins? Who maries ten women at the same time? Even with multiple wives I dont think anybody (following Yahweh) could have married ten women at once, except maybe Solomon???? Anyway the point is about the message not the mataphor told.

And yes I believe none are raised, or get "spirit bodies" until Yahshua's return.

1 Corinthians 15:50-54, "Now I say this brothers: that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Yahweh; neither does corruption inherit incorruption.Behold, I show you a secret truth: we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed--In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible will have put on incorruption, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will be brought to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory."

Mattithyah 24:29-31, "Immediately, but after the tribulation of those days will the sun be darkened, and the moon will not give her light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven; and then will all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His malakim with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will
gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of earth to the other."
 
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Bryancampbell

Guest
#4
What Jesus taught wasn't false doctrine.

Notice that this story named the characters except the rich man, in the background of an actual place. Why would this be the only parable out of the rest Jesus taught, to have these characteristics?

If someone can find another parable that names the characters, includes a patriarch, and describes or tells of an actual place like this? I think this is an actual story that we are taught to learn from, rather than a parable of something else.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
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#5
So if this is not a parable, and men are lost by not listening to the teachings of Mosheh, how is this reconciled to those who say "you will burn in the hellfires for doing ANYTHING Mosheh said" ??? Most al here know my views, but here im not stating my view just asking what is done with this part of the parable/true story.

Luke 16:29-31, "Abraham said to him; They have Mosheh and the Prophets; let them listen to them. Then he said: No, father Abraham! For if one came back from the dead to them, they would repent! But he said to him; If they will not listen to Mosheh and the Prophets, they would not be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
 
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Bryancampbell

Guest
#6
Well we are talking about Hades, which was a place divided between punishment and paradise in the OT. This was a place that people went to before Jesus' died, resurrect, and ascended to heaven. Because the rich man didn't heed the teachings of God through Moses and the prophets and lived his life luxurious without a heart or even the love of God. He faced punishment, while Lazarus was in the bosom of Abraham.
 
Feb 17, 2010
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#7
Oh well I am fair at English, but what does LIFE EVERLASTING mean? Des it not mean EVERLASTING LIFE? Yu can toss thse two words to and fro, it still means... NOT DIEING! It means SURVIVING even though the FLESH GOES TO DUST...

And the Kudu agrees with the Gemsbok. Well done yuo straight horn beast, says the corkscrew beast....
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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#8
Hades just means the grave, to apply it to anything else is greek mythology IMO. I did post info for both sides to be fair tho.

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

1) name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions
2) Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead
3) later use of this word: the grave, death, hell

In Biblical Greek it is associated with Orcus, the infernal regions,
a dark and dismal place in the very depths of the earth, the common
receptacle of disembodied spirits. Usually Hades is just the abode of
the wicked, Lu. 16:23, Rev. 20:13,14; a very uncomfortable place. TDNT.

—Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)
From G0001 (as a negative particle) and G1492; properly unseen, that is, "Hades" or the place (state) of departed souls:—grave, hell.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
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#9
And the Kudu agrees with the Gemsbok. Well done yuo straight horn beast, says the corkscrew beast....
I try not to do this but.... lol
 
Feb 17, 2010
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#10
Hiz, I also believe this was an actual event, and how it reconsile about what OTHERS say, I d not care, I care What God says, and this is in perfect harmony with the rest of the Word....

The seperation of the sheep and the goats are ALREADY made here on earth, evn before we die. So there is no surprise they also end up in different places in the after life, waiting for the RESURRECTION DATES OF BOTH THE RIGHTEOUS AND THE SINNERS.... The RIGHTEOUS HALL RISE FIRST! and then the unrighteous. Two STAND up dates...
 
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Bryancampbell

Guest
#11
Sorry brother Hizakya I used the Greek term. It's Sheol in Hebrew, means the underworld.
 
Feb 17, 2010
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#12
Hiz Me and DAN here might hunt both species tgether still, we will see if the Lord wants us to be personal mates that hunt together...
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#13
Hiz Me and DAN here might hunt both species tgether still, we will see if the Lord wants us to be personal mates that hunt together...
Thats awesome, also they are beautiful animals, are they edible, as in food? I ate some deer once and liked it.

We are all hunting mates here, were hunting for Yahweh truth!!! HalleluYAHWEH!!!!
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#14
Sorry brother Hizakya I used the Greek term. It's Sheol in Hebrew, means the underworld.
I was of the understaning that they were pretty much counterparts in meaning? I know the "Hades" has some pagan possibilities, but same meaning outwardly? I could be wrong, but I think they are, I have to go to sleep its way past sleep time. Yahweh willing I will catch up with this at a later time.
 
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danschance

Guest
#15
My view on this is it's a parable, so the entire point is to use the story to metaphorically teach a truth.

What I got from this parable is:

One better get right with Yahweh while they are still living, by seeking Him through prayer and His word, and if that is not enough they are lost.

IMO anything else in the parable is irrelavant, it is only the main point of it that matters. You know the parable with the ten virgins? Who maries ten women at the same time? Even with multiple wives I dont think anybody (following Yahweh) could have married ten women at once, except maybe Solomon???? Anyway the point is about the message not the mataphor told.

And yes I believe none are raised, or get "spirit bodies" until Yahshua's return.

1 Corinthians 15:50-54, "Now I say this brothers: that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Yahweh; neither does corruption inherit incorruption.Behold, I show you a secret truth: we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed--In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible will have put on incorruption, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will be brought to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory."

Mattithyah 24:29-31, "Immediately, but after the tribulation of those days will the sun be darkened, and the moon will not give her light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven; and then will all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His malakim with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will
gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of earth to the other."

Strange how you answered so much but not a thing about my question. A parable is a story. Why spend so much time one answering everything except what I asked?

Please respond to my question. Why did Jesus tell a story that included human spirits surviving death if this is false theology?

Keep in mind, I believe the bible has no false theology in it.
 
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danschance

Guest
#16
My view on this is it's a parable, so the entire point is to use the story to metaphorically teach a truth.

IMO anything else in the parable is irrelavant, it is only the main point of it that matters.

And yes I believe none are raised, or get "spirit bodies" until Yahshua's return.
Well... thank you for your opinions but you failed to answer my question other than it does not matter. Jesus said not on yot or title would perish from the law. I can only assume the same standard applies to all scripture. Here we have spirits that survive death and dove tail into the teachings of Christ on Hell and Heaven, yet you claim it is of no consequence. What a pity that you think so little of scripture.
 
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danschance

Guest
#17
Hiz Me and DAN here might hunt both species tgether still, we will see if the Lord wants us to be personal mates that hunt together...

God willing we will take some game with thanksgiving to the One who gave us the game. I hope we will have that opportunity someday.
 
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danschance

Guest
#18
I was of the understaning that they were pretty much counterparts in meaning? I know the "Hades" has some pagan possibilities, but same meaning outwardly? I could be wrong, but I think they are, I have to go to sleep its way past sleep time. Yahweh willing I will catch up with this at a later time.
Well think about this. God included Hades in scripture. Wonder what can be derived from that? Maybe Hades is or was a real place?
 
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danschance

Guest
#19
Sorry brother Hizakya I used the Greek term. It's Sheol in Hebrew, means the underworld.
Sheol is hebrew for Hades in greek. We can not go to the grave and yet still communicate unless the spirit of man survives death---which it does!

We see in the story of the transfiguration that Moses and Elijah shows up. That is because the truth of scipture is that we do in fact survive death.
 
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danschance

Guest
#20
Sp to those who think we do not survive death, don't you find it odd that Lazarus, Abraham, Moses and Elijah are all listed in the New Testament as living spirits? Why would the scriptures list them as being alive after death if it was not so?