Unconditional Election - (Sovereign Election)

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Sep 8, 2012
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#1
Romans 9:10-13
"That the purposes of God might stand." - (So that it rests not on us, but the determinate grace of God)

Why would God give His grace to some? Doesn't seem fair.
Why would God give His grace in a greater measure to some than to others? It just doesn't seem fair.
- One person receiving a blessing from God and the other not, and it's still based on the good pleasure of God.
- - The Apostle Paul anticipates the objection; and states - "What; is there unrighteousness with God?"
- - - (If Paul was teaching a semi-pelagian, or armenian view of election - that is; a soul meeting some condition -who would raise an objection about that being unfair?)

Shall the elect sin that grace will abound?
God forbid!
- (If they continue in sin they are not elected)

"I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy." Here the apostle is reminding us that it is God's right to prosecute Divine Executive clemency. (When and where He so desires it)
He says from the beginning, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy"; - not on those who have met the conditions.
- One BIG condition to receiving the birthright(blessing) was being firstborn. (But on whom was God pleased to bestow the benefit in two important occasions?)
- - Esau or Jacob?
- - Elias, (Jessie's firstborn), or David?

For an example, say there are two sinners. - One is saved, one is lost.
Now.....think about it...... if God chooses by His sovereign power to bestow His grace on one and withhold it from the other, has He violated justice?
If we examine the lives of those who do not receive the gift of His grace, is there any injustice in this?
If God allows these sinners to perish, do they receive something they do not deserve?

- If a governor of a worldly state pardons one - (by given him/her clemency); is that governor beholden to grant clemency to all?

The apostle Paul is saying there is no injustice, because Esau didn't deserve the blessing in the first place, and Jacob didn't either. Yet one was condemned and the other accepted.
- Jacob received the blessing; and Esau received the justice.
- - Nowhere is an injustice perpetrated. -(Why is that?)
- - - "So therefore it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs; but of God who shows mercy."
 
Sep 8, 2012
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#2
......Then the apostle Paul goes on to show through Pharaoh, - (please notice, not a son of the nation of Esau);
- "For this very purpose have I raised thee up, that I may display My power in you; and that My Name may be declared in all of the earth."

The apostle demolishes human will as the basis for God's election.
Yes! Salvation is based upon will.
Yes! It is based upon free will.
But it is based upon the will of a sovereign God who elects, (as Paul teaches elsewhere); according to the good pleasure of His will.


Election is not anything anyone did to deserve it.
It is not some good thing that they conjured up.
It is not some condition that they met.
The accent is on grace, and removes all self acclaimed merit. Putting the focus back where it belongs- on the unspeakable mercy and grace of God; who has the sovereign eternal right to have mercy on whom He will have mercy.
- So that it is not of him/her who wills, - except by the divine will.
- - It is not of them who run to save themselves, but it is God who grants clemency to some.

I wrote this because many people think grace is a merit badge that they earn.
 
T

tdrew777

Guest
#3
In the reformed system, God is responsible for creating men who will not be saved. He could have created them otherwise. In this system, God knows what He is doing when he does it.

In other systems, God is still just as responsible for creating men who will not be saved. He still could have created them otherwise. But in those systems, God is not sure of who is who until it happens in time. This removes NO RESPONSIBILITY from our omnipotent and loving God in having created unsaved men. This unscriptural caveat, that some find philosophically necessary, neglects the fact that from eternity, God is simultaneously present in all time in one instant. Jesus says, "Before Abraham was I AM" (not "I was").
 
Jun 30, 2011
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#4
In the reformed system, God is responsible for creating men who will not be saved. He could have created them otherwise. In this system, God knows what He is doing when he does it.

In other systems, God is still just as responsible for creating men who will not be saved. He still could have created them otherwise. But in those systems, God is not sure of who is who until it happens in time. This removes NO RESPONSIBILITY from our omnipotent and loving God in having created unsaved men. This unscriptural caveat, that some find philosophically necessary, neglects the fact that from eternity, God is simultaneously present in all time in one instant. Jesus says, "Before Abraham was I AM" (not "I was").

Creating people for destruction - does not make God unrightous
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
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#5
If God created people for destruction, then how can God hold them accountable for their wickedness and rebellion? For they had not choice in the matter but to be what God created them to be.

God creating people for destruction, or "doomed from the womb" flies if the face of this very clear verse: 1 Timothy 2:4, [SUP]"3 [/SUP]For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, [SUP]4 [/SUP]who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
 
Jun 30, 2011
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#6
Creating people for destruction - does not make God unrightous
thought the idea is a scary thing, and we do not know who these people are, walk in the fear of the Lord, urge others to seek Him while He may be found - living out what He has ordained is a hard concept ;D
 
Sep 8, 2012
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#7
God doesn't create anyone for destruction.
God is Love.
There were no created demons.
There are also no created souls for hell.
It's not that God made the earth and all of the people in it to be burned.

'Vessels fitted for destruction'? - Only because they didn't receive His renewing grace.

The entirety of the creation is fallen.
God sent Jesus to save all who would come to Him.
- My point, as is the point of all of the apostles and church fathers is that - without His grace no one can come to Him.
- -No matter how hard souls may try, (and the pharisees tried hard, as do all legalists).

What I am saying is, that in a sense there absolutely is free will as far as mankind goes.
But without the grace of God that is shown through the Holy Spirit to awake and call and choose each believer, all their efforts are but dross.

- - It was God's will none would be lost(John 3:16), but original sin and the first Adam resolved that.
- - - (Jesus is the second Adam)
 
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Jun 30, 2011
2,521
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#8
If God created people for destruction, then how can God hold them accountable for their wickedness and rebellion? For they had not choice in the matter but to be what God created them to be.

God creating people for destruction, or "doomed from the womb" flies if the face of this very clear verse: 1 Timothy 2:4, [SUP]"3 [/SUP]For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, [SUP]4 [/SUP]who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Think about finite people living out life with a limited ability to understand - let alone to try to understand the Infinitude of who God is
1) this should lead us to glorify God more
2) should lead us to walk in the fear of the Lord more
3) pray more, seek more, cry out to Him more, depend on Him more - because we are finite, we are short sided, we are troubled with sin on all sides and in us, to seek repentance, to seek His faith

The end result should be change in man
 
C

CRC

Guest
#9
Are We Predestined?
Some say that fate has decreed the day of our death. Others insist that God personally decides when it is our time to die. In addition, such people regard the key events of life as inevitable. Is that how you view matters?
You might ask yourself the following questions: ‘If, in fact, there is nothing we can do to change our destiny, if God or fate has already determined the outcome of a matter, what is the point of praying? And if our destiny is already determined, why take measures to protect our safety? Why wear a seat belt when traveling in a car? For that matter, why refrain from drinking and driving?’
The Bible in no way condones such reckless behavior. Rather than leave matters in the hands of fate, the Bible commanded that the Israelites be safety conscious. For example, they were ordered to build a low wall around the flat roofs of their houses. The purpose was to prevent someone from accidentally falling from the roof. Why, though, would God give such a command if a person were destined to fall from a roof and die?—Deuteronomy 22:8.
What about those who die because of natural disasters or other tragic events beyond their control? Do they have a predetermined “date with death”? No, the Bible writer King Solomon assures us that “time and unforeseen occurrence befall [us] all.” (Ecclesiastes 9:11) So no matter how bizarre or unlikely the circumstances, tragic events are not predestined.
Some feel, however, that this statement contradicts Solomon’s earlier observation: “For everything there is an appointed time, even a time for every affair under the heavens: a time for birth and a time to die.” (Ecclesiastes 3:1, 2) But was Solomon really endorsing a fatalistic view? Let us look closely at those words.
Solomon was not saying that births and deaths are predestined. Rather, his point is that births and deaths, like many things in life, come in endless cycles. Certainly, life will have its ups and downs. “There is . . . a time to weep and a time to laugh,” says Solomon. Such repeated patterns and unforeseen calamities, Solomon shows, are common to life, to “every affair under the heavens.” (Ecclesiastes 3:1-8; 9:11, 12) His conclusion, therefore, is not to get so swept up in our daily affairs that we overlook our Creator.—Ecclesiastes 12:1, 13.
Though our Creator understands life and death completely, he does not force a destiny on us. The Bible teaches that God offers all of us the prospect of living forever. But God does not compel us to accept his offer. Instead, his Word says: “Let anyone that wishes take life’s water free.”—Revelation 22:17.
Yes, we must want to “take life’s water.” Thus, our future is not determined by fate. Our own decisions, attitudes, and actions have a real impact on our future.
 
Jun 30, 2011
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#10
Proverbs says - the man casts the lot - but the result is from the Lord
 
Sep 8, 2012
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#11
Are We Predestined?
Some say that fate has decreed the day of our death. Others insist that God personally decides when it is our time to die. In addition, such people regard the key events of life as inevitable. Is that how you view matters?
You might ask yourself the following questions: ‘If, in fact, there is nothing we can do to change our destiny, if God or fate has already determined the outcome of a matter, what is the point of praying? And if our destiny is already determined, why take measures to protect our safety? Why wear a seat belt when traveling in a car? For that matter, why refrain from drinking and driving?’
The Bible in no way condones such reckless behavior. Rather than leave matters in the hands of fate, the Bible commanded that the Israelites be safety conscious. For example, they were ordered to build a low wall around the flat roofs of their houses. The purpose was to prevent someone from accidentally falling from the roof. Why, though, would God give such a command if a person were destined to fall from a roof and die?—Deuteronomy 22:8.
What about those who die because of natural disasters or other tragic events beyond their control? Do they have a predetermined “date with death”? No, the Bible writer King Solomon assures us that “time and unforeseen occurrence befall [us] all.” (Ecclesiastes 9:11) So no matter how bizarre or unlikely the circumstances, tragic events are not predestined.
Some feel, however, that this statement contradicts Solomon’s earlier observation: “For everything there is an appointed time, even a time for every affair under the heavens: a time for birth and a time to die.” (Ecclesiastes 3:1, 2) But was Solomon really endorsing a fatalistic view? Let us look closely at those words.
Solomon was not saying that births and deaths are predestined. Rather, his point is that births and deaths, like many things in life, come in endless cycles. Certainly, life will have its ups and downs. “There is . . . a time to weep and a time to laugh,” says Solomon. Such repeated patterns and unforeseen calamities, Solomon shows, are common to life, to “every affair under the heavens.” (Ecclesiastes 3:1-8; 9:11, 12) His conclusion, therefore, is not to get so swept up in our daily affairs that we overlook our Creator.—Ecclesiastes 12:1, 13.
Though our Creator understands life and death completely, he does not force a destiny on us. The Bible teaches that God offers all of us the prospect of living forever. But God does not compel us to accept his offer. Instead, his Word says: “Let anyone that wishes take life’s water free.”—Revelation 22:17.
Yes, we must want to “take life’s water.” Thus, our future is not determined by fate. Our own decisions, attitudes, and actions have a real impact on our future.
Without the grace of God we are lost.
Read it. Even the pelagian 'decision' for Christ is an act of grace.
Why do you think He told us to "go into all nations proclaiming the gospel"?
So people could choose Him?
Not hardly.
Jesus said, "You have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you".
Judas Iscariot was one of the twelve. - (Jesus also said, "have I not chosen you, and one of you is a devil?")

Listen, without the ever endearing grace of the Comforter we would all be lost.
- It is a total work of grace. - An effectual and fervent work of the Father. - (By His Son through the Holy Spirit)
- - Totally.
 
Jan 21, 2013
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#12
Sovereign Election is a Gospel of Grace doctrine, if that is not preached, the Gospel is not preached.
 
T

tdrew777

Guest
#13
All sin is interwoven, and it is all forgiven - or else none of it is forgiven. One sin (father's drunkenness) causes another (son's violence). Not a sin is committed where the sinner could not truthfully say, "if X had not sinned first, I would not have behaved in such an evil way". All sin is interconnected. God did not forgive just YOUR piece - He forgave it all! That's why, if you fail to forgive, if you demand another to give an account of HIS transgressions, God will command that YOU give an account of YOURS, too. Your sin and his are tied together in an intricate series of cause/effect. God forgives it all - and not because anyone repented! We were all still in rebellion! The problem is our evil character, the one we were born with, the one that can not please God. If one loves that evil character he was born with, if he justifies it, if he loves trying to reform it - he rejects the regenerated character that is available through the Holy Spirit, he commits the only unforgivable sin. He keeps the evil character that he loves. With all sin committed in time forgiven, he goes to the judgement seat with an evil character. God;s standard is "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth". Even without an atonement, God would never give an eternal punishment for a temporal sin. But evil character can not be reformed. It continues to sin - even at the judgement seat, even in hell. Evil character draws it's own just penalty - for all eternity. As long as free-will exists (and free will is eternal) the bad tree will produce bad fruit. And suffer bad consequences. Forever and ever. And he lifts his fist against God, from the pit of hell, and protests (correctly) BUT I WAS BORN THAT WAY so (incorrectly) IT'S YOUR FAULT, GOD.
God has graciously done all that was necessary for salvation. God in NO WAY forced or coerced that man to reject the regenerated character offered by the Holy Spirit through the blood of Jesus. The offer of salvation was real. Yet God knew, before He created that man, that he would use his free will to love his own evil character. God was not surprised when the man's rejection of grace became final. He might have created the man differently, but He created whom He created.