1 Thess 4 has the context of resurrection, so does 1 Cor. 15. The dead in Christ who rise before those who meet Christ in the air are resurrected, so are those who are "caught up." That is the entire point of the passage. One of the biggest issues concerning the idea of a Rapture is that this is a clear time when saints are resurrected and raptured. That's why it's linked to 1 Cor. 15.
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Absolutely.
Research will show to what 200 denarii were monetarily equivalent in that day, it would be eight-months wages.
Were did you get 800?
200 denarii and 8 months' wages were monetarily equivalent.
And where do you find in the Scriptures that they are based on Biblical Mathematics?
Basing Scripture on Biblical Mathematics is more of a "translator imposing what he thinks is more important" than is using monetary equivalency.
I did here:
I also find the same meaning for the "air" of 1Th 4:17 in Young's Concordance.
Yes, I believe 1Th 4:16-17.
Research will show to what 200 denarii were monetarily equivalent in that day, it would be eight-months wages.
Were did you get 800?
200 denarii and 8 months' wages were monetarily equivalent.
And where do you find in the Scriptures that they are based on Biblical Mathematics?
Basing Scripture on Biblical Mathematics is more of a "translator imposing what he thinks is more important" than is using monetary equivalency.
I did here:
[TABLE="class: table2, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]Thayer's
STRONGS NT 109: ἀήρ
ἀήρ, ἀέρος, ὁ (ἄημι, ἄω (cf. ἄνεμος, at the beginning), the air (particularly the lower and denser, as distinguished from the higher and rarer ὁ αἰθήρ, cf. Homer, Iliad 14, 288), the atmospheric region: Acts 22:23; 1 Thessalonians 4:17; Revelation 9:2; Revelation 16:17; ὁ ἄρχων τῆς ἐξουσίας τοῦ ἀέρος in Ephesians 2:2 signifies 'the ruler of the powers (spirits, see ἐξουσία 4 c. ββ.) in the air,' i. e. the devil, the prince of the demons that according to Jewish opinion fill the realm of air (cf. Meyer at the passage; (B. D. American edition under the word
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
THAYER'S GREEK LEXICON, Electronic Database.
Copyright © 2002, 2003, 2006, 2011 by Biblesoft, Inc.
All rights reserved. Used by permission. BibleSoft.com
[TR]
[TD]Thayer's
STRONGS NT 109: ἀήρ
ἀήρ, ἀέρος, ὁ (ἄημι, ἄω (cf. ἄνεμος, at the beginning), the air (particularly the lower and denser, as distinguished from the higher and rarer ὁ αἰθήρ, cf. Homer, Iliad 14, 288), the atmospheric region: Acts 22:23; 1 Thessalonians 4:17; Revelation 9:2; Revelation 16:17; ὁ ἄρχων τῆς ἐξουσίας τοῦ ἀέρος in Ephesians 2:2 signifies 'the ruler of the powers (spirits, see ἐξουσία 4 c. ββ.) in the air,' i. e. the devil, the prince of the demons that according to Jewish opinion fill the realm of air (cf. Meyer at the passage; (B. D. American edition under the word
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
THAYER'S GREEK LEXICON, Electronic Database.
Copyright © 2002, 2003, 2006, 2011 by Biblesoft, Inc.
All rights reserved. Used by permission. BibleSoft.com
I also find the same meaning for the "air" of 1Th 4:17 in Young's Concordance.
Yes, I believe 1Th 4:16-17.
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The Bible teaches no such thing, that's a prophetic riddle.
Prophetic riddles can have more than one interpretation and, therefore, private interpretation of them is uncertain.
Uncertain private interpretation of prophetic riddles is not Biblical teaching.
That "separation" is based on uncertain private interpretation of prophetic riddles.
Prophetic riddles can be, and are, interpreted by others to mean completely different things.
For starters, you will find no "millennium" interim in the Christian historic creeds.
". . .ascended into heaven where he is seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from thence he shall come to judge the living and the dead."
The Apostles' Creed (teaching of the apostles) leaves no room for a "millennium" between
"seated at the right hand of God" and "come to judge the living and the dead."
Baloney. . .
Who said all Christian doctrine must be contained in one passage?
Are the historical accounts of Christ's death, resurrection and ascension presented in one passage?
Are the setting aside of the law, the Sinaitic covenant and the Aaronic priesthood presented in the same passage as justification by faith?
Is the resurrection in spiritual bodies presented in the same passage as the hardening of part of Israel?
Etc., etc., etc.?
A millennial reign is not taught in Scripture, it is derived from uncertain private interpretation of prophetic riddles, which can be, and are, interpreted by others to mean something entirely different.
That is your uncertain private interpretation of a prophetic riddle, which can be, and is, interpreted by others to mean something entirely different.
NT teaching presents only one resurrection.
Try reading again 1Co 15:51-52 which you quoted above.
That is correct.
I see what Scripture teaches:
At the only return of Christ at the end of time (Ac 3:21; Heb 9:27-28)
(the church is the fulfillment of the ages--1Co 10:11, there is no other age after the church),
Christ will descend from heaven with the archangel and the trump of God, and with a loud command (1Th 4:16) [maybe "Come forth!" (Jn 11:43)]
the saints will rise (1Th 4:17) with resurrection spiritual (sinless, glorious, powerful) physical bodies (1Co 15:35, 42-44, 48-49),
those who are alive will be changed in the twinkling of an eye to spiritual physical bodies (1Co 15:51-52),
then all the believers will ascend into the air to go out to meet the Lord (1Th 4:17) and to accompany him in joy back on the rest of his journey to earth (the parousia), where they will then assist him in judging the world (1Co 6:2).
Prophetic riddles can have more than one interpretation and, therefore, private interpretation of them is uncertain.
Uncertain private interpretation of prophetic riddles is not Biblical teaching.
That "separation" is based on uncertain private interpretation of prophetic riddles.
Prophetic riddles can be, and are, interpreted by others to mean completely different things.
For starters, you will find no "millennium" interim in the Christian historic creeds.
". . .ascended into heaven where he is seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from thence he shall come to judge the living and the dead."
The Apostles' Creed (teaching of the apostles) leaves no room for a "millennium" between
"seated at the right hand of God" and "come to judge the living and the dead."
Baloney. . .
Who said all Christian doctrine must be contained in one passage?
Are the historical accounts of Christ's death, resurrection and ascension presented in one passage?
Are the setting aside of the law, the Sinaitic covenant and the Aaronic priesthood presented in the same passage as justification by faith?
Is the resurrection in spiritual bodies presented in the same passage as the hardening of part of Israel?
Etc., etc., etc.?
A millennial reign is not taught in Scripture, it is derived from uncertain private interpretation of prophetic riddles, which can be, and are, interpreted by others to mean something entirely different.
That is your uncertain private interpretation of a prophetic riddle, which can be, and is, interpreted by others to mean something entirely different.
NT teaching presents only one resurrection.
Try reading again 1Co 15:51-52 which you quoted above.
That is correct.
I see what Scripture teaches:
At the only return of Christ at the end of time (Ac 3:21; Heb 9:27-28)
(the church is the fulfillment of the ages--1Co 10:11, there is no other age after the church),
Christ will descend from heaven with the archangel and the trump of God, and with a loud command (1Th 4:16) [maybe "Come forth!" (Jn 11:43)]
the saints will rise (1Th 4:17) with resurrection spiritual (sinless, glorious, powerful) physical bodies (1Co 15:35, 42-44, 48-49),
those who are alive will be changed in the twinkling of an eye to spiritual physical bodies (1Co 15:51-52),
then all the believers will ascend into the air to go out to meet the Lord (1Th 4:17) and to accompany him in joy back on the rest of his journey to earth (the parousia), where they will then assist him in judging the world (1Co 6:2).
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B
A believer can commit sin and when they do the Holy Spirit within is grieved and fellowship is broken, but when they confess and name the sin to God, God gives them grave and forgives them along with cleansing them from the unrightousness of what they have done. Remember, sin can also be something that we omit to do that we have been led by the Spirit through the word to do. We have to learn how to receive grace when we fail and fall short so that we can grow and mature in our relationship with Jesus Christ through the Spirit. When sin abounds grace does much more abound, not something that we often think of when we are confronted with sin in ourselves or with others.
Konroh,
I understand you objecting to this because you desperately need 1 Cor 15:51-53 to be associated with the Lord's return for your rapture theory. If this passage deals with the final kingdom (New Heaven) and NOT the Second Coming it would spell B-I-G T-R-O-U-B-L-E for the Rapture theory.
Don't confuse resurrection with transfiguration. Yes, some saints are resurrected when the Lord returns but do we have a single passage or teaching that says those returning saints are in glorified bodies? Christ resurrected 3 people during His ministry on earth, Lazarus included. Did these 3 come back with glorified spiritual bodies or mortal bodies?
Now please go back and look at 1 Cor 15 again:
Do you see the word, "Lord" or "Christ" or "Jesus" mentioned in 1 Cor 15:51-53?
Do you see anything suggesting the Lord's return to associate it with the Second Coming?
Do you see any mention of a "gathering" or being "caught up" in the above?
Do you see any "Clouds" mentioned or "air?"
Do you see the timing given such as Tribulation era?
Do you find "last trump" used together in any other passage in the Bible?
There are three resurrections, two of them future. 1 Cor 15:51-53 is talking about #3 resurrection.
1 Cor 15:
23 But every man in his own order: #1 Christ the firstfruits; #2afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 #3Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Rev 20:4-13:
4 #2And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image , neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished . This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired , Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 12 #3And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened : and another book was opened , which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
What body do we need for heaven? Mortal or Immortal? Let's see what Rev 21 has to say:
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
It certainly appears that there will still be death until the new heaven is created.
Hebrews 9:27 KJV And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
When does Christ defeat death, when He first returns or is it the last enemy He defeats?
Look at the Olivet Discourse passages where the Lord discusses "gathering His Elect." Do you see any reference to those gathered being changed?
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Mat 24.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. Mark 13.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass , then look up , and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. Luke 21.
Does Paul mention anything about the living being transformed when the Lord returns in his passages?
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thes 4.
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 Thes 2.
So, we have 5 passages that discuss the gathering of Saints at the Lord's return. None of them say a word about any of the living who are being gathered being transformed!!
We have 1 passage that discusses living being changed and there isn't a word that links it to the Second Coming of Christ. However, we have passages that tell us the last enemy Christ defeats is death and we have passages that tell us that there is no more death at the end. If you look at 1 Cor 15 in context it becomes clear that Paul is discussing the final state and not the tribulation era.
I understand you objecting to this because you desperately need 1 Cor 15:51-53 to be associated with the Lord's return for your rapture theory. If this passage deals with the final kingdom (New Heaven) and NOT the Second Coming it would spell B-I-G T-R-O-U-B-L-E for the Rapture theory.
Don't confuse resurrection with transfiguration. Yes, some saints are resurrected when the Lord returns but do we have a single passage or teaching that says those returning saints are in glorified bodies? Christ resurrected 3 people during His ministry on earth, Lazarus included. Did these 3 come back with glorified spiritual bodies or mortal bodies?
Now please go back and look at 1 Cor 15 again:
Do you see the word, "Lord" or "Christ" or "Jesus" mentioned in 1 Cor 15:51-53?
Do you see anything suggesting the Lord's return to associate it with the Second Coming?
Do you see any mention of a "gathering" or being "caught up" in the above?
Do you see any "Clouds" mentioned or "air?"
Do you see the timing given such as Tribulation era?
Do you find "last trump" used together in any other passage in the Bible?
There are three resurrections, two of them future. 1 Cor 15:51-53 is talking about #3 resurrection.
1 Cor 15:
23 But every man in his own order: #1 Christ the firstfruits; #2afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 #3Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Rev 20:4-13:
4 #2And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image , neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished . This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired , Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 12 #3And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened : and another book was opened , which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
What body do we need for heaven? Mortal or Immortal? Let's see what Rev 21 has to say:
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
It certainly appears that there will still be death until the new heaven is created.
Hebrews 9:27 KJV And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
When does Christ defeat death, when He first returns or is it the last enemy He defeats?
Look at the Olivet Discourse passages where the Lord discusses "gathering His Elect." Do you see any reference to those gathered being changed?
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Mat 24.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. Mark 13.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass , then look up , and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. Luke 21.
Does Paul mention anything about the living being transformed when the Lord returns in his passages?
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thes 4.
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 Thes 2.
So, we have 5 passages that discuss the gathering of Saints at the Lord's return. None of them say a word about any of the living who are being gathered being transformed!!
We have 1 passage that discusses living being changed and there isn't a word that links it to the Second Coming of Christ. However, we have passages that tell us the last enemy Christ defeats is death and we have passages that tell us that there is no more death at the end. If you look at 1 Cor 15 in context it becomes clear that Paul is discussing the final state and not the tribulation era.
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Elin,
But is that an accurate translation? If God wanted to get across the amount of wages needed to pay for something He would have written it that way. Who is Man to say that God intended to compare the cost with a man's nominal wages of the day? I just read a fascinating book on Biblical numbers. These numbers have meaning and importance. To change something from 200 to 8 radically alters the meaning and significance of God's numbers.
Typo, meant to say "8"
God said 200 Denarii, Man says 8 months wages. KJV and NKJV and most others use 200 Denarii. NIV uses 8 months wages. The Greek says 200 Denarii. Using 8 months changes the Biblical number. Again, if God wanted to stress 8 month's wages He would have said 8 month's wages!! Read GOD THE MASTER MATHEMATICIAN by Dr. Noah Hutchings. He's Pre-Trib but he makes a big point about this change. It's a short book and an interesting read.
Nelson's Strong's has it: 109. aer ah-ayr' from aemi (to breathe unconsciously, i.e. respire; by analogy, to blow); "air" (as naturally circumambient):--air. Compare 5594.
Strong's Greek Lexicon Search Results
Interesting that they would be different. Thayer must be Pre-Trib, LOL. Interesting also that Thayer would distinguish it to lower atmosphere as opposed to higher.
So how do you know what is a riddle and what isn't? Maybe your 1 Thes 4:17 is a riddle? If you start throwing prophetic riddles around then anyone can and nothing is certain. Very slippery sloop if you ask me. For the sake of argument, if ALL Saints return with Christ, why would God still be in heaven? Better yet, what would Christ be doing with 10 billion or so saints on earth? Saints would outnumber unbelievers by at least 3:1.
So you don't believe in a Millennium? Rev 20 is open to endless interpretations in your mind?? If you are free to assign "Riddle" to any prophesy you like then you are free to alter the Word into anything you like, or at least the prophetic word. There can be no honest debate with someone who reserves the right to labeling "Prophetic Riddle" whenever he or she likes.
If you don't see a millennium and we go from Tribulation straight to final judgement of Heaven or Hell, then how do you account for Mat 25, the Lord separating the Sheep from Goats? How do you account for the Lord reigning with a "rod of iron." How do you account for Zech 14? How can the Lord withhold rain from Egypt and those nations who do not come to Jerusalem if those nations have been destroyed and the sinners within those nations are in hell? There are a lot of holes in your No Millennium theory.
But is that an accurate translation? If God wanted to get across the amount of wages needed to pay for something He would have written it that way. Who is Man to say that God intended to compare the cost with a man's nominal wages of the day? I just read a fascinating book on Biblical numbers. These numbers have meaning and importance. To change something from 200 to 8 radically alters the meaning and significance of God's numbers.
Typo, meant to say "8"
God said 200 Denarii, Man says 8 months wages. KJV and NKJV and most others use 200 Denarii. NIV uses 8 months wages. The Greek says 200 Denarii. Using 8 months changes the Biblical number. Again, if God wanted to stress 8 month's wages He would have said 8 month's wages!! Read GOD THE MASTER MATHEMATICIAN by Dr. Noah Hutchings. He's Pre-Trib but he makes a big point about this change. It's a short book and an interesting read.
Nelson's Strong's has it: 109. aer ah-ayr' from aemi (to breathe unconsciously, i.e. respire; by analogy, to blow); "air" (as naturally circumambient):--air. Compare 5594.
Strong's Greek Lexicon Search Results
Interesting that they would be different. Thayer must be Pre-Trib, LOL. Interesting also that Thayer would distinguish it to lower atmosphere as opposed to higher.
So how do you know what is a riddle and what isn't? Maybe your 1 Thes 4:17 is a riddle? If you start throwing prophetic riddles around then anyone can and nothing is certain. Very slippery sloop if you ask me. For the sake of argument, if ALL Saints return with Christ, why would God still be in heaven? Better yet, what would Christ be doing with 10 billion or so saints on earth? Saints would outnumber unbelievers by at least 3:1.
So you don't believe in a Millennium? Rev 20 is open to endless interpretations in your mind?? If you are free to assign "Riddle" to any prophesy you like then you are free to alter the Word into anything you like, or at least the prophetic word. There can be no honest debate with someone who reserves the right to labeling "Prophetic Riddle" whenever he or she likes.
If you don't see a millennium and we go from Tribulation straight to final judgement of Heaven or Hell, then how do you account for Mat 25, the Lord separating the Sheep from Goats? How do you account for the Lord reigning with a "rod of iron." How do you account for Zech 14? How can the Lord withhold rain from Egypt and those nations who do not come to Jerusalem if those nations have been destroyed and the sinners within those nations are in hell? There are a lot of holes in your No Millennium theory.
Plainword, you have a post-trib theory that is unlike any I've ever heard. I doubt if you can cite one commentary or scholar (someone with a doctorate) who believes as you do. I'm not saying that one needs to be educated in order to understand the Bible, it's just that it's interesting that no one who is educated would believe as you do.
You are making a distinction between the resurrection of saints and being gathered together. Most post-trib theorists do not make this distinction. Pre-trib theorists actually do make this distinction. So your proof from the Olivet discourse that there is a gathering, not a resurrection is exactly what pre-trib believes. That's one of the primary differences. The fact that you don't understand 1 Thess. 4 that it teaches a resurrection of "those who are alive and remain" is very sad. Paul's entire point is that the dead in Christ are the first to get their resurrection bodies, then those who are alive and remain do. I'm familiar with your interpretation of this passage, that you have the first part referring to post-millenium and then those caught up referring to before the millenium. The way you wrangle this passage is inconceivable to me and any other pre- mid- or post-trib theorist including any amillenialist. This is why you have such problems with your view.
1 Cor. 15 teaches an exact resurrection order, but not a definitive statement that there are only 3 resurrections. The flow of the passage is more of a spiraling idea. Christ is the firstfruits, He begins the spiral, then those that are Christ's at His coming (including both a Rapture and 2nd coming) until finally the spiral is completed when all death is destroyed.
You are making a distinction between the resurrection of saints and being gathered together. Most post-trib theorists do not make this distinction. Pre-trib theorists actually do make this distinction. So your proof from the Olivet discourse that there is a gathering, not a resurrection is exactly what pre-trib believes. That's one of the primary differences. The fact that you don't understand 1 Thess. 4 that it teaches a resurrection of "those who are alive and remain" is very sad. Paul's entire point is that the dead in Christ are the first to get their resurrection bodies, then those who are alive and remain do. I'm familiar with your interpretation of this passage, that you have the first part referring to post-millenium and then those caught up referring to before the millenium. The way you wrangle this passage is inconceivable to me and any other pre- mid- or post-trib theorist including any amillenialist. This is why you have such problems with your view.
1 Cor. 15 teaches an exact resurrection order, but not a definitive statement that there are only 3 resurrections. The flow of the passage is more of a spiraling idea. Christ is the firstfruits, He begins the spiral, then those that are Christ's at His coming (including both a Rapture and 2nd coming) until finally the spiral is completed when all death is destroyed.
While I'm a firm believer that the Church is a culmination of God's plan from the beginning of time, I don't think that Scripture describes it at the only culmination of the ages.
Acts 3 actually seems to describe an idea that the restoration is not just the Church age, but that there's more:
20and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you,21whom heaven must receive until [the] period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.
Heaven receives Christ until the period of restoration, it's still future.
1 Cor. 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
Fascinating that Paul actually makes sure to say the ends of the ages, not the end of the age. This isn't the final age, there is more to come.
Heb. 9:26Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
The idea that Christ appears at the culmination of the ages is not the idea that it's the termination of the ages, cf. Strong's
4930 /syntéleia ("culminating end, finish") is not strictly "termination" but rather "consummation" (completion) that ushers in a new time-era/age (Mt 13:39,40,49,24:3, 28:20).
[The KJV is misleading by rendering 4930 (syntéleia) as "the end of the world" (i.e. when it occurs with aiōn, "age/epoch"). This expression actually means "at the "consummation of the age," i.e. when it reaches its intended climax (consummated conclusion).]
Christ judged sin at His first coming. He brings salvation at His second, sin has been judged. This cannot mean that there is no judgment of Christ at His second coming, otherwise Rev. 19 and the sword coming from His mouth and killing His enemies would have no meaning.
We are in the last times, the ends of the ages, the entire Church Age is characterized this way, but this age is not the period of restoration of all things, there's more to come.
Acts 3 actually seems to describe an idea that the restoration is not just the Church age, but that there's more:
20and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you,21whom heaven must receive until [the] period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.
Heaven receives Christ until the period of restoration, it's still future.
1 Cor. 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
Fascinating that Paul actually makes sure to say the ends of the ages, not the end of the age. This isn't the final age, there is more to come.
Heb. 9:26Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
The idea that Christ appears at the culmination of the ages is not the idea that it's the termination of the ages, cf. Strong's
4930 /syntéleia ("culminating end, finish") is not strictly "termination" but rather "consummation" (completion) that ushers in a new time-era/age (Mt 13:39,40,49,24:3, 28:20).
[The KJV is misleading by rendering 4930 (syntéleia) as "the end of the world" (i.e. when it occurs with aiōn, "age/epoch"). This expression actually means "at the "consummation of the age," i.e. when it reaches its intended climax (consummated conclusion).]
Christ judged sin at His first coming. He brings salvation at His second, sin has been judged. This cannot mean that there is no judgment of Christ at His second coming, otherwise Rev. 19 and the sword coming from His mouth and killing His enemies would have no meaning.
We are in the last times, the ends of the ages, the entire Church Age is characterized this way, but this age is not the period of restoration of all things, there's more to come.
You got that from man's book.
Show me where it is in God's book.
Everyone will be raised. I'd say the unbelievers will outnumber the believers by 4:1.
The numbers would be God's problem, not mine.
I take him at his word in 1Th 4:16-7 and 1Co 6:2.
Prophetic riddles are in the OT books of prophecy, and in the NT book of Rev.
And yes, since they are subject to multiple uncertain interpretations, there can be no resolution based on what one thinks is their meaning.
My discussions are based in what is certain in the word of God, not in its riddles of prophecy.
Show me where it is in God's book.
Everyone will be raised. I'd say the unbelievers will outnumber the believers by 4:1.
The numbers would be God's problem, not mine.
I take him at his word in 1Th 4:16-7 and 1Co 6:2.
Prophetic riddles are in the OT books of prophecy, and in the NT book of Rev.
And yes, since they are subject to multiple uncertain interpretations, there can be no resolution based on what one thinks is their meaning.
My discussions are based in what is certain in the word of God, not in its riddles of prophecy.
That is precisely how 1Co 10:11 describes it, the culmination, not a culmination.
You're committing eisegesis of the Scriptures to fit your theology.
Restoration is not an age, it's the future end of this age, which is the fulfillment of the ages (1Co 10:11).
Restoration is the eagerly expected end of the frustration and groaning of creation to which it was subjected, not by its own choice (Ro 8:20-21), and from which bondage to decay it will be liberated
in the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness (2Pe 3:10-13) at the adoption
of the sons of God, the redemption of our bodies (Ro 8:22), which is the resurrection at the end of time.
Yes, the completion of our salvation is the transformation of our natural (sinful, weak, corruptible) physical bodies to our spiritual (sinless, glorious, incorruptible) physical bodies at the resurrection
(1Co 15:42-44, 51-53),
when creation will likewise be liberated from its bondage to decay and restored in the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness, where there is no death (Rev 21:1-4) because it is eternity. . .time has ended.
"Fascinating that Paul actually" does not use sunteleia, but uses telos in 1Co 10:11.
"Fascinating that" telos is singular "end," and not plural "ends."
"Fascinating that" telos means "the final issue or result" (singular), as in "Christ is the end (goal, singular) of the Law so that there may be righteousness for everyone that believes."
"Fascinating that Paul actually" means what he says: the church is the fulfillment of the ages,
there is no other age to come.
"Fascinating that" you are again committing eisegesis of the Scriptures to fit your theology.
So. . .what are you saying?
When does Christ judge the world?
Just as men die once and face judgment, so Jesus comes once to die and once to judge (Heb 9:27-28), and not in between.
The judgment of the world (1Co 6:2) is at Christ's second coming (Mt 25:31-46) at the end of time.
According to certain NT teaching, what is to come is:
1) the rapture at Christ's second coming (1Th 4:16-17; 2Th 2:1-8; Mt 25:31),
2) to judge the world at the end of time (Mt 25:32-46; 1Co 6:2), and
3) the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness (2Pe 3:10-13),
4) where there is no death (Rev 21:1-4) because it is eternity. . .time has ended.
Anything else added is derived from uncertain private interpretation of prophetic riddles,
which can be, and are, interpreted to mean many entirely different things.
The certain teaching of the NT is that the church is the fulfillment of the ages,
there is no other temporal age to come.
You're committing eisegesis of the Scriptures to fit your theology.
Restoration is not an age, it's the future end of this age, which is the fulfillment of the ages (1Co 10:11).
Restoration is the eagerly expected end of the frustration and groaning of creation to which it was subjected, not by its own choice (Ro 8:20-21), and from which bondage to decay it will be liberated
in the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness (2Pe 3:10-13) at the adoption
of the sons of God, the redemption of our bodies (Ro 8:22), which is the resurrection at the end of time.
Yes, the completion of our salvation is the transformation of our natural (sinful, weak, corruptible) physical bodies to our spiritual (sinless, glorious, incorruptible) physical bodies at the resurrection
(1Co 15:42-44, 51-53),
when creation will likewise be liberated from its bondage to decay and restored in the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness, where there is no death (Rev 21:1-4) because it is eternity. . .time has ended.
"Fascinating that Paul actually" does not use sunteleia, but uses telos in 1Co 10:11.
"Fascinating that" telos is singular "end," and not plural "ends."
"Fascinating that" telos means "the final issue or result" (singular), as in "Christ is the end (goal, singular) of the Law so that there may be righteousness for everyone that believes."
"Fascinating that Paul actually" means what he says: the church is the fulfillment of the ages,
there is no other age to come.
"Fascinating that" you are again committing eisegesis of the Scriptures to fit your theology.
So. . .what are you saying?
When does Christ judge the world?
Just as men die once and face judgment, so Jesus comes once to die and once to judge (Heb 9:27-28), and not in between.
The judgment of the world (1Co 6:2) is at Christ's second coming (Mt 25:31-46) at the end of time.
According to certain NT teaching, what is to come is:
1) the rapture at Christ's second coming (1Th 4:16-17; 2Th 2:1-8; Mt 25:31),
2) to judge the world at the end of time (Mt 25:32-46; 1Co 6:2), and
3) the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness (2Pe 3:10-13),
4) where there is no death (Rev 21:1-4) because it is eternity. . .time has ended.
Anything else added is derived from uncertain private interpretation of prophetic riddles,
which can be, and are, interpreted to mean many entirely different things.
The certain teaching of the NT is that the church is the fulfillment of the ages,
there is no other temporal age to come.
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In 1 Co. 10:11 Paul uses the plural, ends. That was my point. Please stop telling me that I'm eisegeting, your ad hominem attacks mean nothing to me. You didn't interact at all with my point that the plural is used and that sunteleia points to consummation. I agree with much of your overall characterization of the restoration of the ages, but in the actual texts themselves is not the point you're making. We have been given the "ends" of the ages, it doesn't rule out a future age. Christ's advent is the consummation of the age, not the termination of it. Restoration can very well imply a future physical restoration/culmination and is not specifically tied textually to a new heaven and new earth.
As to your continual use of the phrase uncertain private interpretation of prophetic riddles, the problem that you have is that your very interpretation is an allegorical interpretation of Rev. 20. Whenever the Bible uses the term years, it should be first understood to mean years. Your understanding of Rev. 20 is by no means certain. In fact, historically the first Christians were chiliasts, believing in a future millenium. It wasn't until allegorical interpretation began with Origen and others that an allegorical interpretation of 1000 years began. I am doing you the service that you are trying to understand what the Bible says, please do me the same service.
As to your continual use of the phrase uncertain private interpretation of prophetic riddles, the problem that you have is that your very interpretation is an allegorical interpretation of Rev. 20. Whenever the Bible uses the term years, it should be first understood to mean years. Your understanding of Rev. 20 is by no means certain. In fact, historically the first Christians were chiliasts, believing in a future millenium. It wasn't until allegorical interpretation began with Origen and others that an allegorical interpretation of 1000 years began. I am doing you the service that you are trying to understand what the Bible says, please do me the same service.
New International Version
These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come.
New Living Translation
These things happened to them as examples for us. They were written down to warn us who live at the end of the age.
English Standard Version
Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.
New American Standard Bible
Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
King James Bible
Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Now these things happened to them as examples, and they were written as a warning to us, on whom the ends of the ages have come.
The Greek is "the ends of the ages"
These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come.
New Living Translation
These things happened to them as examples for us. They were written down to warn us who live at the end of the age.
English Standard Version
Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.
New American Standard Bible
Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
King James Bible
Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Now these things happened to them as examples, and they were written as a warning to us, on whom the ends of the ages have come.
The Greek is "the ends of the ages"
Your point was based on a word Paul did not use in 1Co 10:11.
Therefore, your point has no bearing on 1Co 10:11.
I apologize.
Read it again.
However, you did not interact with my point that Paul does not use sunteleia in 1Co 10:11 and, therefore, it has no bearing.
Read it again.
It is precisely the point I am making.
What other point is there?
Read it again.
Paul uses telos, not sunteleia.
It is specifically tied contextually, in the light of Ro 8:19-23; 2Pe 3:13, which locate creation's restoration with our resurrection at the end of time;
and in the light of 1Jn 3:1-2; 1Co 15:53-55, which locates our restoration to immortality (no death) with the resurrection, where there will necessarily be no death (Rev 21:1-4), which is necessarily in eternity at the end of time, and which is necessarily the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness.
As to your diversion to Rev 20, how did Rev 20 get into this?
There is nothing in my post about Rev 20, and it has nothing to do with this.
The church is the fulfillment of the ages (1Co 10:11), and you have not shown there is any other age
to come.
Therefore, your point has no bearing on 1Co 10:11.
I apologize.
Read it again.
However, you did not interact with my point that Paul does not use sunteleia in 1Co 10:11 and, therefore, it has no bearing.
Read it again.
It is precisely the point I am making.
What other point is there?
Read it again.
Paul uses telos, not sunteleia.
It is specifically tied contextually, in the light of Ro 8:19-23; 2Pe 3:13, which locate creation's restoration with our resurrection at the end of time;
and in the light of 1Jn 3:1-2; 1Co 15:53-55, which locates our restoration to immortality (no death) with the resurrection, where there will necessarily be no death (Rev 21:1-4), which is necessarily in eternity at the end of time, and which is necessarily the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness.
As to your diversion to Rev 20, how did Rev 20 get into this?
There is nothing in my post about Rev 20, and it has nothing to do with this.
The church is the fulfillment of the ages (1Co 10:11), and you have not shown there is any other age
to come.
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I need to revise what I said on telos.
"Ends (telos = goal, culmination, see Ro 10:4) of the ages" does not allow for another age.
Telos is the goal, culmination, fulfillment of all that God has been doing for his people
throughout all previous ages.
There is nothing else that can be fulfilled, culminated or attained in any future temporal age.
Nor does the certain teaching of the NT anywhere present a future temporal age after the church.
A future temporal age is all derived from uncertain private interpretation of prophetic riddles.
"Ends (telos = goal, culmination, see Ro 10:4) of the ages" does not allow for another age.
Telos is the goal, culmination, fulfillment of all that God has been doing for his people
throughout all previous ages.
There is nothing else that can be fulfilled, culminated or attained in any future temporal age.
Nor does the certain teaching of the NT anywhere present a future temporal age after the church.
A future temporal age is all derived from uncertain private interpretation of prophetic riddles.
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Dear Konroh,
Thank you for the wonderful compliment. Yes, I don't have a doctorate in theology but I am not uneducated. I have a college degree and am a former Naval Nuclear Engineer who graduated at the top of my class. I guess what sets me apart is I can actually read and don't have any false doctrines that have been pounded into my heads by self-proclaiming religious leaders who are as blind as a bat. Boasting aside, I feel not the least bit put down because there were many among the religiously educated during Christ's day that had everything wrong. Apparently, not much has changed in 2,000 years....
Got to run, more later.
Thank you for the wonderful compliment. Yes, I don't have a doctorate in theology but I am not uneducated. I have a college degree and am a former Naval Nuclear Engineer who graduated at the top of my class. I guess what sets me apart is I can actually read and don't have any false doctrines that have been pounded into my heads by self-proclaiming religious leaders who are as blind as a bat. Boasting aside, I feel not the least bit put down because there were many among the religiously educated during Christ's day that had everything wrong. Apparently, not much has changed in 2,000 years....
Got to run, more later.
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