Romans 9:13-23 Do we even have a choice?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Status
Not open for further replies.
P

Phoenix

Guest
#21
Romans 10-end of chapter

And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac,
Rom 9:11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls--
Rom 9:12 she was told, "The older will serve the younger."
Rom 9:13 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!
Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
Rom 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Rom 9:23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--
Rom 9:24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As indeed he says in Hosea, "Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,' and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.'"
Rom 9:26 "And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' there they will be called 'sons of the living God.'"
Rom 9:27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved,
Rom 9:28 for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay."
Rom 9:29 And as Isaiah predicted, "If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring, we would have been like Sodom and become like Gomorrah."
Rom 9:30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith;
Rom 9:31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law.
Rom 9:32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,
Rom 9:33 as it is written, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame."
 
Apr 23, 2009
2,253
5
0
#22
I do not see anything here that contradicts the 1st Timothy 2:4 or the rest of scripture for that matter. Jesus died for all, and God wants all to be saved, but He does not force Himself on anyone. He chose to give us choice. It is not loving to force yourself on someone who doesn't want to choose you.
 
M

Maddog

Guest
#23
Um really. i don't see anywhere in scripture where wesley is pulling that from.
Well let's use a scenario.
Lets say bob is not saved but God wants Him saved but Bob does not want to be saved so he is rejecting God's Grace. wesley's Teaching.

Where as what Scripture teaches is that if Bob was chosen before the foundation of the world he cannot resist God's Will. He will be saved.
Yes, Scripture can certainly be interpreted in a Calvinistic predestination fashion and has enjoyed much success throughout history, but then so have many other theologies, including the Arminian/Wesleyan train of thought. All can and do claim Scripture's backing.

My point is not really to argue against Calvinism, but simply that appealing to the 'teaching of Scripture' is not as straightforward as it may seem.
 
G

greatkraw

Guest
#24
In his sovereignty God gives each man free will.

By the way, Christ died for the sins of the WHOLE world.
 
P

Phoenix

Guest
#25
@greatkraw.
Free will contradicts the sovereignty of God. we have a will in a sense but it is more prone to sin than to want God.
Um. if Christ died for the whole world. why are there people in hell? it is like what happened to the thief on the cross. one was saved to show Gods's Mercy and the Other sentenced to Hell to show His Just Wrath.

The only thing is i am not saying things like "only calvinists go to heaven" or anything like that.
I'm not saying that Arminians are Heretics. Christ prayed for unity and I do not want to cause division.
But what i am saying is that it makes so much sense with everything in the world. I look outside and i see destruction I know why there is destruction.
I know things don't happen by chance because God is Sovereign.
I know he chose me because My heart is to wicked and prone to sin to choose Him.
I know that Christ will Hold me even if i begin to stray away He will Bring me back.
I know that my God Sends people to Hell and people to heaven because it is in His Good Pleasure.
I know that sin has corrupted every human being in the World.
 
Apr 23, 2009
2,253
5
0
#27
@greatkraw.
Free will contradicts the sovereignty of God. we have a will in a sense but it is more prone to sin than to want God.
Um. if Christ died for the whole world. why are there people in hell? it is like what happened to the thief on the cross. one was saved to show Gods's Mercy and the Other sentenced to Hell to show His Just Wrath.
The other theif went to Hell, because he didn;t asked to be forgiven

The only thing is i am not saying things like "only calvinists go to heaven" or anything like that.
I'm not saying that Arminians are Heretics. Christ prayed for unity and I do not want to cause division.
But what i am saying is that it makes so much sense with everything in the world. I look outside and i see destruction I know why there is destruction.
I know things don't happen by chance because God is Sovereign.
I know he chose me because My heart is to wicked and prone to sin to choose Him.
I know that Christ will Hold me even if i begin to stray away He will Bring me back.
I know that my God Sends people to Hell and people to heaven because it is in His Good Pleasure.
I know that sin has corrupted every human being in the World.
I understand what you are trying to say, and I realize you are very advanced for your age, but the fact remain that calvinism is the teachings of a man, not scripture.
 

DinoDillinger

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
839
19
18
#28
I actually believed that God's election was scripture by reading scripture before I ever heard of calvin, I believe it puts man in the seat of the condemned rather than the judgement seat. I think the whole free will thing puts man in the judgement seat. I would also like to point out that calvinism was around a long time before armenism or todays, 'accept Jesus in your heart' thing. which has been around for maybe 40 years, you can see it's effect on the church.
 
Apr 23, 2009
2,253
5
0
#29
I actually believed that God's election was scripture by reading scripture before I ever heard of calvin, I believe it puts man in the seat of the condemned rather than the judgement seat. I think the whole free will thing puts man in the judgement seat. I would also like to point out that calvinism was around a long time before armenism or todays, 'accept Jesus in your heart' thing. which has been around for maybe 40 years, you can see it's effect on the church.
The part of your post I emboldened tells me you do not have enough knowledge on this subject to have an intelligent conversion about it. Further more although I do believe as Arminius did, he nor I believe that everyone who asks Jesus in their heart is automatically saved.
 
D

Definition_Christ

Guest
#30
Awh man too bad John Calvin wasn't around when Yeshua was on Earth they could've been great friends.. I'm sure he would of corrected Paul in all his letters!
 
Apr 23, 2009
2,253
5
0
#31
Awh man too bad John Calvin wasn't around when Yeshua was on Earth they could've been great friends.. I'm sure he would of corrected Paul in all his letters!
Either that or Calvin would have declared Paul a heretic and burned him alive, tied to a stake.
 
P

Phoenix

Guest
#33
Actually Calvin really liked Paul's epistles. So did Luther.
Thats where they both got the justification by faith and not works.
Correct Paul? what? calvin got his teachings from paul
 
D

Definition_Christ

Guest
#34
Actually Calvin really liked Paul's epistles. So did Luther.
Thats where they both got the justification by faith and not works.
Correct Paul? what? calvin got his teachings from paul
hah.....and Joseph Smith got his teachings from Jesus.
 
Apr 23, 2009
2,253
5
0
#35
Actually Calvin really liked Paul's epistles. So did Luther.
Thats where they both got the justification by faith and not works.
Correct Paul? what? calvin got his teachings from paul
Sorry but the teaching of Paul and those of Calvin oppose one another, they are not compatible at all.
 
P

Phoenix

Guest
#36
hah.....and Joseph Smith got his teachings from Jesus.
wow dude really...that just wonderful how you are showing so much kindness.

@Watchmen.
No not really contradictory. they flow. " I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours."-John 17:9

"even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved."-Ephesians 1:4-6

@definitionChrist. I am not trying to be rude about my theology by saying that Calvinism is the only way and that everyone here are heretics. But at the same time i don't tolerate being compared to mormons.
 
Apr 23, 2009
2,253
5
0
#37
I hate to offend you, but mormonism, and calvinism are both false gospels.
 
K

KIT1776

Guest
#38
HI; I AM A PASTOR in THCHE CHRISTIAN AND MISSIONARY ALLIANCE
 
K

KIT1776

Guest
#39
i am unknowlAGABLE HOW TO SPEak online ; would you help me?
 
K

KIT1776

Guest
#40
i have pakinson''s disease so i have to tyoe with one hand
 
Status
Not open for further replies.