Romans 9:13-23 Do we even have a choice?

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watchmen

Banned
#61
Apr 23, 2009
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#61
Definition_Christ said:
Yeah! We are this because our fathers were!...

You may learn God doesn't go with the majority of people. The amount of people in a group doesn't determine if it is true or not.

I can give you many modern day examples like the Roman Catholic Church or we can go back to the days of Noah and God found ONE FAMILY righteous in His eyes and destroyed the rest of the world.

Population doesn't equal truth.
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Very true D_C
 
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watchmen

Banned
#62
Apr 23, 2009
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#62
DinoDillinger said:
So am I wrong that calvinism came before armenism or that the accept Christ in your heart thing started about 40 years ago?
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Yes you are wrong that Calvinism came before Arminianism. The Apostle taught the tenents of Arminianism, even though it was not called that at the time.

So you also don't believe in total depravity?
No limited atonement? I didn't know you were a univeralist.
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No I do not believe in total depravity or limited atonement, and no I am not an universalist.
 
DinoDillinger

DinoDillinger

Senior Member
#63
Jul 28, 2009
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#63
watchmen said:
Yes you are wrong that Calvinism came before Arminianism. The Apostle taught the tenents of Arminianism, even though it was not called that at the time.

No I do not believe in total depravity or limited atonement, and no I am not an universalist.
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sounds like total depravity to me when Isaiah said, there is none good, no not one. There is none who seek Me.

If you believe that whoever believeth in him should not perish but have eternal life then yes you do believe in limited atonement since agree that those who don't believe will perish.

Don't you know that no one can confess Jesus is Lord without the Holy Spirit? That means it isn't man of his own free will but only man empowered by the Holy Spirit.
 
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watchmen

Banned
#64
Apr 23, 2009
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#64
DinoDillinger said:
sounds like total depravity to me when Isaiah said, there is none good, no not one. There is none who seek Me.
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The false doctrine of total depravity teaches that men cannot choose good until after that have been regenerated. The fact that men are depraved, and the false doctrine of total depravity are not the same, and using scripture that shows that men are depraved (which we are) does not in any way prove the false doctrine of total depravity.

If you believe that whoever believeth in him should not perish but have eternal life then yes you do believe in limited atonement since agree that those who don't believe will perish.
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You are wrong again. The false doctrine of limited atonement is that Jesus died only for the elect, when scripture tells us Jesus died for us all. The fact that some men will reject the salvation offered to us all does not negate the truth that Jesus has made a way for all men if they were to choose to take it.

Don't you know that no one can confess Jesus is Lord without the Holy Spirit? That means it isn't man of his own free will but only man empowered by the Holy Spirit.
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Yes and no. You are right that we can only receive Christ through the drawing of the Holy Spirit, and we can only live righteous Christ-like live through the empowerment of the Holy Spirit living inside of us, but you are wrong in saying that we do not have the free will to reject this drawing and choose our own way.
 
DinoDillinger

DinoDillinger

Senior Member
#65
Jul 28, 2009
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#65
You can't choose to love what you hate, the unregenerate man hates God, because he loves sin. If you don't believe that there is scripture to prove it.

I believe my understanding of limited atonement is correct and supported by scripture, note that I did not claim to be a calvinist.
 
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watchmen

Banned
#66
Apr 23, 2009
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#66
DinoDillinger said:
You can't choose to love what you hate, the unregenerate man hates God, because he loves sin. If you don't believe that there is scripture to prove it.

I believe my understanding of limited atonement is correct and supported by scripture, note that I did not claim to be a calvinist.
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Your understanding of limited atonement is wrong regardless of what you think, and scripture supports what I believe not your beliefs.
 
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Maddog

Guest
#67
#67
Phoenix said:
@maddog i feel that there is no need to divide the body of Christ. can two arms that bicker be any good?
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It's not about being deliberately divisive, it's just about being honest. Presumably you believe them to be holding to false doctrine contrary to the Truth. That means you think they are heretics...
 
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Phoenix

Guest
#70
#70
Maddog said:
It's not about being deliberately divisive, it's just about being honest. Presumably you believe them to be holding to false doctrine contrary to the Truth. That means you think they are heretics...
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my friend i would consider them heretics if they denied basic christian beliefs such as the trinity. i find no fault in them but a different doctrine. in times like these that are coming it is not good to bicker. it will all come to an understanding at the end. we will all be corrected in one thing or another
 
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Maddog

Guest
#71
#71
Phoenix said:
my friend i would consider them heretics if they denied basic christian beliefs such as the trinity.
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Oh okay. See, I don't consider orthodoxy confined to the basics, but encompassing of all Christian Truth.
 
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Phoenix

Guest
#72
#72
I do also. but all it is going to get us if we try and discuss a certain doctrine is a very heated discussion.
 
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Maddog

Guest
#73
#73
Phoenix said:
I do also. but all it is going to get us if we try and discuss a certain doctrine is a very heated discussion.
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Is that a bad thing?
 
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Phoenix

Guest
#74
#74
Heated discussions get nowhere
 
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Maddog

Guest
#75
#75
Phoenix said:
Heated discussions get nowhere
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I disagree. I think at the very least they force one consider one's own position in more detail in order to respond to the challange.
 
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Phoenix

Guest
#76
#76
They may. but a lot of times they get out of hand
 
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Definition_Christ

Guest
#77
#77
Thaddaeus said:
1pe 1:2Elect according to the FOREKNOWLEDGE of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
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Exactly foreknew ..
 
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