What curses of the law are we redeemed from, and what blessings of Abraham are ours?

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Jan 19, 2013
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#41
Elin said:
know1 said:
No, I think you have missed something, the original quote was from Matt 18, the second one I used was in Mark11.
Mar 11:25
And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
Mar 11:26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
God's children can be chastened, with various physical "setbacks."
Unlike Matt 18, this verse is addressing the child of God, calling God their Father. Again, if the Child of God or Christian fails to forgive she/he will not be forgiven by God.
Looks like I didn't address Mk 11:25-26.
Sorry about that.

Well, those of counterfeit faith also "stand praying."

Our hearts must be sincere, with the right motive when we ask God for anything (Jas 4:3).
To ask forgiveness when we harbor a grudge, do not forgive, do not love our brother, manifests an insincere heart; and if we never grant the forgiveness, it manifests an unsaved uncoverted heart with no rebirth by the Holy Spirit.

So the Father does no injustice to his children with this condition, for their hearts will be sincere;
while the hearts of counterfeit faith will not be sincere, so their prayer for forgiveness will not be granted, because they do not have saving faith.




 
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Jan 19, 2013
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#42
That is why it is clearly written to the Gentile Christian, not to be proud of themselves, who have become only 'part takers', for now grafted to the New Israel tree and later is possible to be cut off again and be left to be withered.
Are you minimizing being in Christ, being the body of Christ?

Is being in Christ secondary to anything?
 

WomanLovesTX

Senior Member
Jan 1, 2010
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#43
Jews were under the law.
Gentiles come to Christ to obtain GOD's graciousness just like the Israelites.
You state: "Jews were under the law." I believe that is they were under the law of man and not under God's Law. The Pharisees and other sects, added so much to God's law, that people were under the law of man and the traditions and doctrines of man. Jesus condemned the traditions and doctrines of men, but upheld the law of God. It was from the Torah that we are commanded not to add or take away from. If Jesus taught anything that added to the law of God, He would have committed a sin.

Clearly this was Jesus' commandment to us:

Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

And just as clear, God's graciousness is needed first and foremost. The keeping of commandments is not the root of salvation, but is clearly the fruit of our salvation. Good works followed by the planting of the Holy Spirit in our lives.


(Matthew 19:17) And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

(John 14:15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.

(John 15:10) If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

(1 John 2:3) And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

(1 John 3:22) And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

(1 John 5:2) By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

(1 John 5:3) For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

(Revelation 12:17) And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

(Revelation 14:12) Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
 
Oct 31, 2011
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#44
Are you minimizing being in Christ, being the body of Christ?

Is being in Christ secondary to anything?
What do you think being in Christ means? Can we be in Christ and be a drunkard? a thief? deny the words of the Father of Christ?
 
Jan 19, 2013
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#45
fredjames said:
That is why it is clearly written to the Gentile Christian, not to be proud of themselves, who have become only 'part takers', for now grafted to the New Israel tree and later is possible to be cut off again and be left to be withered.
Are you minimizing being in Christ, being the body of Christ?

Is being in Christ secondary to anything?
What do you think being in Christ means? Can we be in Christ and be a drunkard? a thief? deny the words of the Father of Christ?
By "secondary to anything," I mean is there anything more valuable than being in Christ, or is being in Christ secondary to something more valuable?
 
Jan 19, 2013
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#47
Elin said:
The covenant curses are in Lev 26:14-39.
do you believe they apply to Christians?
No, because they were part of the Old (Sinatic) Covenant, which is obsolete (Heb 8:13).

Which is not to say that God does not discipline his children (Heb 12:7-11), but it is for our good,
not our destruction.
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
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#48
Looks like I didn't address Mk 11:25-26.
Sorry about that.
There's another one you overlooked as well. I just didn't mention it.

Well, those of counterfeit faith also "stand praying."
There are those with counterfeit faith, but God would not be called their Father by Jesus if they were. It is written as, 'your Father which is in heaven'. Meaning they are saved. It's not the same as He told the Pharisees, calling the devil their father.

Our hearts must be sincere, with the right motive when we ask God for anything (Jas 4:3).
To ask forgiveness when we harbor a grudge, do not forgive, do not love our brother, manifests an insincere heart; and if we never grant the forgiveness, it manifests an unsaved uncoverted heart with no rebirth by the Holy Spirit.

Then Jesus could not tell them that God was their Father. It was spoken to the children of God, not to those who remained 'unsaved/unconverted'. Do you have scripture to back this assumption up?
Another thing, salvation is not based on forgiving others, nor does it have to do with having right motives, or a sincere heart toward others, it is based on believing the gospel, faith in Jesus, and the work done on the cross, according to Rom 10:8-10. One does not lose their salvation because they fail to forgive others. Aren't they redeemed from every curse of the law? There are sins you fail to repent of, even those you don't know of, and yet you don't lose your salvation. So what happens to a child of God who does not receive forgiveness because they have failed or refused to forgive others? What happens if God does not for you after you are born again?
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#49
fixing typo...."What happens if God does not forgive you after you are born again? "
 
Jan 19, 2013
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#50
Looks like I didn't address Mk 11:25-26.
Sorry about that.
There's another one you overlooked as well. I just didn't mention it.
Which one would that be?

There is also a problem with Mk 11:26.
It is not found in the earliest and best manuscripts of the NT.
It appears to be an addition of Mt 6:15 in the Textus Receptus,
which is also exceptionally corrupt in Rev.


There are at least a couple of places in the NT where something from one gospel writer's text has been inserted into another gospel writer's text to complete the latter.

Mk 11:26 wouldn't be a problem if the contexts weren't different in the two texts.
In Mt 6:15, (inserted into Mk 11:26), Jesus is speaking to a large crowd of Jews, which would be composed of those of true faith and those of counterfeit faith, so that the statement about the Father not forgiving would apply to those of counterfeit faith.

In Mk 11:26, which is an insertion of Mt 6:15, only the disciples are present,
and while the inserted Mt 6:15 is true of all professing Christians,
because some are of true faith and some are of counterfeit faith,
the insertion of Jesus' statement in Mt 6:15, which was to a different and mixed audience,
does not fit at Mk 11:25, creating an inconsistency with the rest of the NT; e.g., Jn 10:28-29; Ro 8:38.

Well, those of counterfeit faith also "stand praying."
There are those with counterfeit faith, but God would not be called their Father by Jesus if they were. It is written as, 'your Father which is in heaven'. Meaning they are saved. It's not the same as He told the Pharisees, calling the devil their father.
Yes, Jesus did.

But did not those Pharisees also call him Father?

In Mt 6:15, from which Mk 11:26 is taken, did not everyone in the large audience of Jews, both of true faith and counterfeit (disobedient) faith, call him Father?
Yet, God was not the Father of those with counterfeit faith, which would be manifested by refusal to forgive, and so are the ones who would not be forgiven.


Our hearts must be sincere, with the right motive when we ask God for anything (Jas 4:3).
To ask forgiveness when we harbor a grudge, do not forgive, do not love our brother, manifests an insincere heart; and if we never grant the forgiveness, it manifests an unsaved uncoverted heart with no rebirth by the Holy Spirit.
Then Jesus could not tell them that God was their Father. It was spoken to the children of God, not to those who remained 'unsaved/unconverted'. Do you have scripture to back this assumption up?
I have the facts that

1) Mk 11:26 does not appear in the earliest and best manuscripts of the NT,
probably having been inserted later from Mt 6:15, which audience was totally different
from the audience in Mk 11:25, where

2) it does not fit in.

Another thing, salvation is not based on forgiving others, nor does it have to do with having right motives, or a sincere heart toward others,
Precisely. . .

But an insincere unforgiving heart manifests a heart which has not been converted in the new birth.
So Jesus could truthfully state if they did not forgive (thereby showing their faith was counterfeit),
the Father would not forgive them (because they were not saved by faith).

it is based on believing the gospel, faith in Jesus, and the work done on the cross, according to Rom 10:8-10. One does not lose their salvation because they fail to forgive others.
Agreed.

But those who harbor a grudge, do not forgive, do not love their brother show that they have no salvation, and so they can't lose what they don't have.

Aren't they redeemed from every curse of the law? There are sins you fail to repent of, even those you don't know of, and yet you don't lose your salvation. So what happens to a child of God who does not receive forgiveness because they have failed or refused to forgive others? What happens if God does not for you after you are born again?
God disciplines his children, and he will bring his born-again child to repentance and forgiveness
of the one he is not forgiving.
 
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know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
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#52
Which one would that be?

There is also a problem with Mk 11:26.
It is not found in the earliest and best manuscripts of the NT.
It appears to be an addition of Mt 6:15 in the Textus Receptus,
which is also exceptionally corrupt in Rev.


This one I cannot let go. I am seriously starting to wonder about you young lady, as to what side you are on.
This you have definitely got wrong. It is not the textus receptus that was corrupt but the codex vaticanus and sinaiticus that were so corrupt, that the King James Bible interpreters rejected it because it had been so tainted by the Catholic church, as they made some 2193 changes, I think it was, to these versions.
So when you see written in your bible, the earliest and best manuscripts, they are referring to the these two Catholic texts, which are the oldest but certainly not the best.
Most of the modern translations of the bible have been taken from the vaticanus and sinaiticus.
Check it out on the internet and see how these two versions of the bible have omitted and changed key words and phrase to promote their agenda.
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
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#53
Yes, Jesus did.

But did not those Pharisees also call him Father?

In Mt 6:15, from which Mk 11:26 is taken, did not everyone in the large audience of Jews, both of true faith and counterfeit (disobedient) faith, call him Father?
Yet, God was not the Father of those with counterfeit faith, which would be manifested by refusal to forgive, and so are the ones who would not be forgiven.


I don't have the time to properly respond to all of your post again, so I will have to make this short and sweet.
Yes, the Pharisees called God their Father, but Jesus didn't. He told them that the devil was their father.
Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
I am sure you are aware of this scripture and so I question you motives.
Jesus never said that God was their father, but the contrary, calling satan their father.
So again, it goes back to the child of God who does not receive forgiveness when they have not forgiven other.
What happens to them?
I hate to be mean about this, but where do you come up with this stuff? You obviously are a very intelligent woman and your knowledge and intellect far exceeds mine, but why they push for a clearly flawed doctrine. You make very good and convincing arguments to the simple and ignorant, but in my opinion, though cleverly disguised, they are clearly not of the truth.
What does a counterfeit faither believe? What constitutes a counterfeit faith?
 
Jan 19, 2013
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#54
Which one would that be?

There is also a problem with Mk 11:26.
It is not found in the earliest and best manuscripts of the NT.
It appears to be an addition of Mt 6:15 in the Textus Receptus,
which is also exceptionally corrupt in Rev
.
This one I cannot let go. I am seriously starting to wonder about you young lady, as to what side you are on.
This you have definitely got wrong. It is not the textus receptus that was corrupt but the codex vaticanus and sinaiticus that were so corrupt, that the King James Bible interpreters rejected it because it had been so tainted by the Catholic church, as they made some 2193 changes, I think it was, to these versions.
So when you see written in your bible, the earliest and best manuscripts, they are referring to the these two Catholic texts, which are the oldest but certainly not the best.
Actually, they are not.

Most of the modern translations of the bible have been taken from the vaticanus and sinaiticus.
Check it out on the internet and see how these two versions of the bible have omitted and changed key words and phrase to promote their agenda.
You need to look further into your findings regarding the Textus Receptus and Revelation.

Likewise, there are a plethora of NT manuscripts, and not all translators are wed to the Codex Vaticanus or Sinaiticus.
Some translators are eclectic in their use of NT manuscripts, using accepted principles of NT textual criticism where the manuscripts differ. They are not a reproduction of either the Codex Vaticanus nor the Sinaiticus.

And Mk 11:26 does not appear in the earlier transcripts.
And the fact that it does not fit in, making the passage inconsistent with the rest of the Bible, (e.g., Jn 10:28-29; Ro 8:38), is further evidence that it is an addition to Mk 11.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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#55
Yes, Jesus did.

But did not those Pharisees also call him Father?

In Mt 6:15, from which Mk 11:26 is taken, did not everyone in the large audience of Jews, both of true faith and counterfeit (disobedient) faith, call him Father?
Yet, God was not the Father of those with counterfeit faith, which would be manifested by refusal to forgive, and so are the ones who would not be forgiven.
I don't have the time to properly respond to all of your post again, so I will have to make this short and sweet.
Yes, the Pharisees called God their Father, but Jesus didn't. He told them that the devil was their father.
Jesus did in Mt 6:15, to an audience which would have included some with counterfeit faith.

You are not being consistent.

What does a counterfeit faither believe? What constitutes a counterfeit faith?
You acknowledge that some faith is counterfeit:

faith1 said:
Elin said:
Well, those of counterfeit faith also "stand praying."
There are those with counterfeit faith,
What did the ones in Mt 7:21-23 believe?

I stated above what constitutes counterfeit faith--no new birth, manifested in a life without obedience.

 
Jan 21, 2013
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#57
Received the promise of the Spirit through Faith !


Gal 3:13-14

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

All for whom Christ died, are redeemed from the curse of the Law, not by their faith or believing in Him, but solely through Him, His Death, in order that they receive the blessing of Abraham, which is the Spirit, through Faith. Yes, you may say, but they receive it[The Spirit] through Faith; Yes that's right but what does Faith mean here ? It means through Christ, Christ here is being called Faith. For did it not say in the same verse " That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ"

In fact Faith refers to Christ two other times in this passage Vs 23,25

23 But before faithv[Christ] came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

25 But after that faith[Faith] is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

That the Blessing of Abraham [The Spirit] might come upon the Gentiles [His Seed] through Christ. The word through is the prep en and means:

I.in, by, with etc. The word here serves to denote instrumentality medially , meaning:a means of effecting or conveying something,the means of transmission of a force or effect .

So through Christ, the Blessing of Abraham, which is the Spirit, comes on the Gentiles. Now lets look at the words Come onas in come on the Gentiles. Its the word ginomai and means:


I.
to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being

II.
to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
A.
of events


III.
to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
A.
of men appearing in public


IV.
to be made, finished
A.
of miracles, to be performed, wrought


V.
to become, be made

It denotes that something is being effected or wrought on them or in them mediated by Jesus Christ.

The blessing of Abraham, the Spirit is wrought upon, performed upon the Gentiles by Jesus Christ. Christ's Faithfulness is the cause of it. This is what God means when He said to Abraham centuries before Gen 12:3

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

The Blessing is the Spirit ! Christ in them the Hope of Glory Col 1:27

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

How is Christ in one ? By His Spirit ! To all for whom He died He is made unto them 1 Cor 15:45

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit [medially].
 
Jan 19, 2013
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#58
Received the promise of the Spirit through Faith !

Gal 3:13-14

13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

All for whom Christ died, are redeemed from the curse of the Law, not by their faith or believing in Him, but solely through Him, His Death, in order that they receive the blessing of Abraham, which is the Spirit, through Faith. Yes, you may say, but they receive it[The Spirit] through Faith; Yes that's right but what does Faith mean here ? It means through Christ, Christ here is being called Faith. For did it not say in the same verse " That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ"

In fact Faith refers to Christ two other times in this passage Vs 23,25

23 But before faith[Christ] came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

25 But after that faith[Faith] is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

That the Blessing of Abraham [The Spirit] might come upon the Gentiles [His Seed] through Christ. The word through is the prep en and means:

I.in, by, with etc. The word here serves to denote instrumentality medially , meaning:a means of effecting or conveying something,the means of transmission of a force or effect .

So through Christ,
Yes, through Christ. . .by faith. . .in Christ.

But Christ is not faith, and faith is not Christ.

NT faith always means faith in Christ which saves.

Faith is in Christ, through whom all God's saving benefits are received.

the Blessing of Abraham, which is the Spirit, comes on the Gentiles.
The blessing of Abraham is Christ, the Promise (Ge 3:15).
 
Jan 19, 2013
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#59
You make very good and convincing arguments to the simple and ignorant, but in my opinion, though cleverly disguised, they are clearly not of the truth.
Assertions without demonstration are meritless.
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
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#60
Assertions without demonstration are meritless.

I'm going to bow out of this thread.
We are at an impasse, neither of us are going anywhere with it as far as the other is concerned on this topic, so rather than press the issues, I'm going to let it go.
You are one sharp cookie though, providing thought provoking arguments.