There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity

[johnluke]

E. He is the sovereign Ruler “at the right hand of the Majesty on high.”
1. The right hand
a. This is the designation of honor and authority. In this is bound the fulfillment of Psalms 110:1. “The LORD says to my lord: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."

b. It is reserved for deity. He who sits at the right hand is Lord.

c. It is occupied only by divine invitation. “The LORD said sit... .” See Mark 10:35-40.

d. It is a place which confirms relationship. It is the Son who sits at the right hand

All of these definitions are right on. Your "he sat down" information is a real stretch to try to explain Jesus sitting or standing on the right hand of God.

I absolutely think of God in an anthropomorphic way. That is the way the Hebrew prophets thought of Him. I AM that I AM specifically refers to Him as being something, not a mysterious universal essence. A real live God that created humans in his form and in his likeness. You need to consider where your world view of God is coming from, is it from Moses or is it from Plato. Is it from Joshua or Jesus or is it from another Greek philosopher. The scriptures are packed full of God in human form. Jesus was a human in form, and stated that in this form he was the exact image of God.

You have to go a long way to eliminate anthropomorphic details of God from the scriptures. Hundreds of scriptures declare that God is anthropomorphic. Some scriptures indicate God is an essence and cannot be approached and is invisible. But these scriptures are thoroughly trumped by the many more that indicate otherwise.

So the scripture is right on when it says that Stephen looked into the heavens and saw Jesus standing on the right hand of God (Act 7:56) I for one believe him. When Jesus at his trial said I AM the Son of God and you will see me sitting on the right hand of God and was killed for his testimony, I believe him that he really is sitting there with God. Not a metaphor or metaphysical greek notion, but a real live God sitting in the heavens on a real throne. To many scriptures scream to us of this reality.

Think how you wish, but I believe the scriptures are not adjusting for our humanity and understanding. God is not telling us one thing and then ha,ha its not really like that. John sees God sitting on his throne, but ha, ha, there really isn't a throne, its all symbolic. I cannot believe the scriptures would be so deceptive, there are too many scriptures to nullify to come to that view of God.

The real problem for Trinitarians is that if Jesus is really sitting on the right hand of God, it nullifies Trinitarian doctrine.

 

[oldhermit]

All of these definitions are right on. Your "he sat down" information is a real stretch to try to explain Jesus sitting or standing on the right hand of God.

I absolutely think of God in an anthropomorphic way. That is the way the Hebrew prophets thought of Him. I AM that I AM specifically refers to Him as being something, not a mysterious universal essence. A real live God that created humans in his form and in his likeness. You need to consider where your world view of God is coming from, is it from Moses or is it from Plato. Is it from Joshua or Jesus or is it from another Greek philosopher. The scriptures are packed full of God in human form. Jesus was a human in form, and stated that in this form he was the exact image of God.

You have to go a long way to eliminate anthropomorphic details of God from the scriptures. Hundreds of scriptures declare that God is anthropomorphic. Some scriptures indicate God is an essence and cannot be approached and is invisible. But these scriptures are thoroughly trumped by the many more that indicate otherwise.

So the scripture is right on when it says that Stephen looked into the heavens and saw Jesus standing on the right hand of God (Act 7:56) I for one believe him. When Jesus at his trial said I AM the Son of God and you will see me sitting on the right hand of God and was killed for his testimony, I believe him that he really is sitting there with God. Not a metaphor or metaphysical greek notion, but a real live God sitting in the heavens on a real throne. To many scriptures scream to us of this reality.

Think how you wish, but I believe the scriptures are not adjusting for our humanity and understanding. God is not telling us one thing and then ha,ha its not really like that. John sees God sitting on his throne, but ha, ha, there really isn't a throne, its all symbolic. I cannot believe the scriptures would be so deceptive, there are too many scriptures to nullify to come to that view of God.

The real problem for Trinitarians is that if Jesus is really sitting on the right hand of God, it nullifies Trinitarian doctrine.

Did you find the thread "Triadic Reality?

 

[johnluke]

Did you find the thread "Triadic Reality?

I went to the Bible Discussion Forum and started with page 1 and went thru page 10 and did not see it. So now let me know what page it is on and I will go there. Thanks.

 

[oldhermit]

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ity-discussion-between-oldhermit-kenisis.html

 

[johnluke]

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ity-discussion-between-oldhermit-kenisis.html

Yes, but where do I find it?

 

[oldhermit]

Yes, but where do I find it?

What happened when you clicked on the link I gave you?

 

[johnluke]

Re: Jesus is God.

Explain to me who you think Elohim was in the first chapter of Genesis?

Explain to me who you think Yahweh Elohim was in the second and third chapters of Genesis?

Explain to me who you think Yahweh was in the fourth chapter to the end of Genesis?

Explain how each are different from each other.

Mudspek,

Did you loose interest in my questions? I enjoy the discussion, so don't let it stop. Thanks

 

[VCO]

><>t<><

I'm BACK!

What a hectic move. I had my mobile home on sale for over 8 months and never got an offer, but then UNEXPECTEDLY I had one at my lowest acceptable price, but he wanted to move in two weeks. I told him I couldn't get it done that quickly, if I wanted to. I had not even looked for a house to move to. The LORD led us to this house 5 days later. The mad house rush was a nightmare, especially without help, (my wife is handicapped). The Lord gave me the ability to cope and deal with all the problems, and my buyer got his house in 27 days. We closed on that one in the morning and this one in the afternoon. With so little time to pack, I was literally raking shelves into bags or boxes as fast as I could. The stress near the end just about got to me, bad. On top of it all my wife has osteoporosis and fell in the motel when we were waiting for the truck to come with our funiture, and shattered the ball of her arm bone at her shoulder and had to have surgery to replace it with a hunk of metal. I did not nut up, but kept trusting that the LORD was still in control, but I will admit, the stress just about buckled me.

Man that moving so fast was not one of my brightest ideas, because we moved to a smaller house and I brought everything. Now I am having to sort all of the boxes into three piles, 1. Things to keep, 2. Things throw away, and 3. Things to sell on a garage sale and/or give to a thrift store. It will be months before I am done. Thankfully the stress is gone, and my wife's shoulder is starting heal. The house is starting to look like someone really lives here. I am thankful for this house, and the payments fit our budget. Everyone in this town of 9000 seems extremely friendly and the Bible teaching Church we will attend is only four blocks away. So where did I move to? Fallon, Nevada, home of the US Navy's TOP GUN School. It is kinda cool to hear the jet fighters take off everyday.

I will try to catch up on reading and posting in the next few days.

Matthew 6:27-34 (NKJV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] Which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature?
[SUP]28 [/SUP] So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin;
[SUP]29 [/SUP] and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
[SUP]30 [/SUP] Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?
[SUP]31 [/SUP] Therefore do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?'
[SUP]32 [/SUP] For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.
[SUP]33 [/SUP] But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.
[SUP]34 [/SUP] Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.

 

[Bowman]

Re: Jesus is God.

Mudspek,

Did you loose interest in my questions? I enjoy the discussion, so don't let it stop. Thanks

He's still recovering from being hit with the Trinity stun-gun...

 

[VCO]

I have probably mentioned it before, but the biggest reason that I TOTALLY believe in the Trinity, is ever human being is a triune being created in the image of GOD.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We are made up of three distinct parts, with three distinct functions, YET we are still only ONE HUMAN BEING.

Two of the parts are invisible, and only one is visible, JUST LIKE GOD.

Now JESUS is both HUMAN and GOD in the flesh. The difference between JESUS and us, is the spirit in us was created by the Creator, while the Spirit in JESUS is the CREATOR.

Zechariah 12:1 (HCSB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] An Oracle The word of the LORD concerning Israel. A declaration of the LORD, who stretched out the heavens, laid the foundation of the earth, and formed the spirit of man within him.

Do I believe spiritually dead is "NON-FUNCTIONING" like a dead body? NO! Spiritually dead is a functioning spirit that is DEAD to the will of GOD, and only focused on the will of the Flesh. While Eternally spiritually ALIVE is the born again experience when the once dead to the will of GOD spirit is brought to that Eternally ALIVE state by the Holy Spirit Himself, thereby we for the first time become in tune with the Will of GOD.

Romans 8:5-9 (NKJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life (born again) and peace.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

 

[homwardbound]

And our Bodies move and have their being because of God, the Spirit that is in the lead
Acts 17:28 for in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Flesh is reckoned Dead and Spirit is alive holding our dead flesh alive as new in the Spirit of God from God at the resurrected Christ after the death

 

[nelsonr]

You are not loser. look Christianity is a monotheistic religion based on the life and oral teachings of Jesus as presented in the New Testament. Christianity is the world's largest religion. Actually I was not aware of all these, but I was searching for the Torah Scroll for sale and got these beautiful thoughts.

 

[secularhermit]

I´d like to leave this link I have found interesting: Questions on Doctrine: a creedal or a preponderant 'faith'?

 

[Kerry]

It bewilders me how someone can read the bible and not see the trinity, I think most are listening to some dude and not reading for themselves. I meant, its all over the place, OT , NT, and everywhere in between.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings danschance,

• John 8:58 - "Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.'"
  1. Exodus 3:14 - "And God said to Moses, 'I AM WHO I AM'; and He said, Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’"

I started to browse this very long thread, and I do not know if there is is any proper discussion on John 8:58. I decided to add my understanding of the "I AM" passages of John's Gospel.

The following is taking up the various places in John’s Gospel where the phrase “I am” occurs. I am not sure if I have found every relevant occurrence. We need to determine if Jesus and John are connecting all or some of these with Exodus 3:14. Principally we need to determine if the “I am” of John 8:58 is directly connected with Exodus 3:14 or has some other meaning and thus testing your claim that Jesus is alluding to or quoting Exodus 3:14 in John 8:58.

John 1:20-23 (KJV): 20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am (S# 1510) not the Christ. 21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am (S# 1510) not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No. 22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself? 23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.
John 3:28 (KJV): Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
The Apostle John records these words of John the Baptist when the representatives of the Jews questioned him. This was not just an idle inquiry, but part of their role to examine if a prophet spoke with Divine authority. They also felt challenged because here was a new prophet who seemed to be working independently of the Scribes and Pharisees and the Sanhedrin Council. Please note the phrases “I am not the Christ” and “I am not” (Elijah). In my opinion, neither of these are connected with Exodus 3:14, but is possibly the start of a theme that John draws attention to by recording various “I am” passages. In other words it is the question of who a person actually is, and it is usually the authorities who want to determine their status.

John 4:25-26 (KJV): 25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am (S# 1510) he.
Here is Jesus confession that He is the Christ, but note this is similar to the language that John the Baptist used. The translators of the KJV have added “he” in italics to connect Jesus’ answer to say that Jesus is here claiming to be the Christ. They are suggesting by this that Jesus is not claiming to be the “I am” of Exodus 3:14, even though the “I am” of John 4:26 is identical to John 8:58 in the original Greek. In other words the phrase “I am” is a simple expression in this context, but seems a bit awkward in English, requiring the addition of he.

John 6:20 (KJV): But he saith unto them, It is (S# 1510) I; be not afraid.
This is in a different order and I am not familiar enough with Greek to comment except to say that I do not think Jesus is appealing to Exodus 3:14 here. He was comforting them by his words and the familiar tone of his voice.

“I am” occurs in John 6:20, 35, 41, 48, 51, :7:28, 29, 33, 34, 36, 8:12, 16, 18, 23, 24, 28, and each of these describe in one way or another who Jesus is, but it is the last two of these, John 8:24,28 that may be connected to John 8:58, as they are in the same context and spoken at the same time.

John 8:23-28 (KJV): 23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. 25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning. 26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. 27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father. 28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Now again the KJV translators have added the “he” in both occurrences, and this gives the impression that they did not believe that Jesus was claiming here a connection with Exodus 3:14. It speaks in the first of his claim to a Divine origin as the Son of God v23, and in the second that he was the Son of Man v28. Rather than having some claim to independent Deity, he rather states his absolute dependence upon God His Father, “I do nothing of myself”.

John 8:58 (KJV): Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Despite the context and usage of the phrase in John 8:28, the translators here with exactly the same original words have translated this as “I am” and not “I am he”. They thus leave wide open the suggestion that this connects with Exodus 3:14. In my opinion the same phrase occurring in John 8: v24 and v28 qualifies how we should understand John 8:58, spoken at the same time to the same audience. My conclusion is that when Jesus says “I am” in John 8:58, he is claiming to be the Son of God and the Son of Man.

John 9:9 (KJV): Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he.
This is the blind man speaking and again the translators have added the he to give the proper sense in the English. This particular usage here for the blind man again demystifies the expression in the Greek “I am” to show that it is not automatically a reference to what at first may seem to be the obscure words of Exodus 3:14.

In addition to this it is my belief that Exodus 3:14 should be translated with the future tense “I will be”. Therefore I have serious doubts that Exodus 3:14 is in any real way connected with John 8:58. A true understanding “I will be” from Exodus 3:14 necessitates that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God, not God the Son.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[heavenlyparadise]

trinity is not a death and life threatening doctrine, it just believer's opinion. But church authority put it on salvation's position.
If believers judge other believer with this opinion, he or she or any organization will be judged.
so, do not dispute with other believers on this human made theory hardly. it just possible opinion or guessing word.

 

[saved1975]

The Trinity doctrine is an illogical, non-Bible based teaching. Many are confused by this falsehood...and as a result do not feel close to God; or feel real love or real connection to/ for God because this erroneous teaching.John 7:29, is one of many verses in the Bible that disproves the Trinity doctrine.

In John 7: 29, Jesus is speaking as a man, just like He does in other scriptures, He calls Himself the "Son of man".

Although Jesus was God, John 1: 1--3, He left His Godly power in heaven, And became in the form of a servant made in the likeness of man, Phil 2: 5-8. and operated as a man.
That the reason Jesus didn't do one miracle until He was baptised in the Holy Ghost.

God introduced Himself as the trinity, in the very first chapter of the Bible,
He said, "God, Elohim" plural created the heaven and earth.
Then Gen1: 26, says,
"Let US, plural make man in OUR, plural image after OUR, likeness".

US, and OUR is plural, Not ONE.
There is one God, manifested in three persons.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings saved1975,

God introduced Himself as the trinity, in the very first chapter of the Bible,
He said, "God, Elohim" plural created the heaven and earth.
Then Gen1: 26, says,
"Let US, plural make man in OUR, plural image after OUR, likeness".

US, and OUR is plural, Not ONE.
There is one God, manifested in three persons.

Elohim can be in the plural and singular. The plural “us” and “our” in Genesis 1:26 is the One God and the angels. Elohim can represent one angel acting on Yahweh, God the Father’s behalf.
Genesis 17:22 (KJV): And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.
Exodus 3:2-6 (KJV): 2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. 3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. 4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. 5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. 6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[faroukfarouk]

Greetings danschance,
I started to browse this very long thread, and I do not know if there is is any proper discussion on John 8:58. I decided to add my understanding of the "I AM" passages of John's Gospel.

The following is taking up the various places in John’s Gospel where the phrase “I am” occurs. I am not sure if I have found every relevant occurrence. We need to determine if Jesus and John are connecting all or some of these with Exodus 3:14. Principally we need to determine if the “I am” of John 8:58 is directly connected with Exodus 3:14 or has some other meaning and thus testing your claim that Jesus is alluding to or quoting Exodus 3:14 in John 8:58.

John 1:20-23 (KJV): 20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am (S# 1510) not the Christ. 21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am (S# 1510) not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No. 22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself? 23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.
John 3:28 (KJV): Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
The Apostle John records these words of John the Baptist when the representatives of the Jews questioned him. This was not just an idle inquiry, but part of their role to examine if a prophet spoke with Divine authority. They also felt challenged because here was a new prophet who seemed to be working independently of the Scribes and Pharisees and the Sanhedrin Council. Please note the phrases “I am not the Christ” and “I am not” (Elijah). In my opinion, neither of these are connected with Exodus 3:14, but is possibly the start of a theme that John draws attention to by recording various “I am” passages. In other words it is the question of who a person actually is, and it is usually the authorities who want to determine their status.

John 4:25-26 (KJV): 25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am (S# 1510) he.
Here is Jesus confession that He is the Christ, but note this is similar to the language that John the Baptist used. The translators of the KJV have added “he” in italics to connect Jesus’ answer to say that Jesus is here claiming to be the Christ. They are suggesting by this that Jesus is not claiming to be the “I am” of Exodus 3:14, even though the “I am” of John 4:26 is identical to John 8:58 in the original Greek. In other words the phrase “I am” is a simple expression in this context, but seems a bit awkward in English, requiring the addition of he.

John 6:20 (KJV): But he saith unto them, It is (S# 1510) I; be not afraid.
This is in a different order and I am not familiar enough with Greek to comment except to say that I do not think Jesus is appealing to Exodus 3:14 here. He was comforting them by his words and the familiar tone of his voice.

“I am” occurs in John 6:20, 35, 41, 48, 51, :7:28, 29, 33, 34, 36, 8:12, 16, 18, 23, 24, 28, and each of these describe in one way or another who Jesus is, but it is the last two of these, John 8:24,28 that may be connected to John 8:58, as they are in the same context and spoken at the same time.

John 8:23-28 (KJV): 23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. 25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning. 26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. 27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father. 28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Now again the KJV translators have added the “he” in both occurrences, and this gives the impression that they did not believe that Jesus was claiming here a connection with Exodus 3:14. It speaks in the first of his claim to a Divine origin as the Son of God v23, and in the second that he was the Son of Man v28. Rather than having some claim to independent Deity, he rather states his absolute dependence upon God His Father, “I do nothing of myself”.

John 8:58 (KJV): Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Despite the context and usage of the phrase in John 8:28, the translators here with exactly the same original words have translated this as “I am” and not “I am he”. They thus leave wide open the suggestion that this connects with Exodus 3:14. In my opinion the same phrase occurring in John 8: v24 and v28 qualifies how we should understand John 8:58, spoken at the same time to the same audience. My conclusion is that when Jesus says “I am” in John 8:58, he is claiming to be the Son of God and the Son of Man.

John 9:9 (KJV): Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he.
This is the blind man speaking and again the translators have added the he to give the proper sense in the English. This particular usage here for the blind man again demystifies the expression in the Greek “I am” to show that it is not automatically a reference to what at first may seem to be the obscure words of Exodus 3:14.

In addition to this it is my belief that Exodus 3:14 should be translated with the future tense “I will be”. Therefore I have serious doubts that Exodus 3:14 is in any real way connected with John 8:58. A true understanding “I will be” from Exodus 3:14 necessitates that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God, not God the Son.

Kind regards
Trevor

Sir, I don't understand the supposed difference between God the Son and the Son of God.

The Trinity -the great truth of God in three Persons - is clearly in the New Testament (end of Matthew 28, John's Gospel, especially chapters 13 thru 17, Romans 8, John's First Epistle, etc.).

 

[Dayen]

I discover that we christian always talk much about things that matter less than the ones that much. And also talk much about leaders than ourselves