There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity

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K

krow

Guest
I am glad that you are taking the time to find out what it is that we actually believe :)

You wrote:
"The trinity is basically the idea that God is not just Yahweh, but all three."

Incorrect. Let me rephrase the sentence you wrote so that it is right:
"The trinity is basically the idea that Yahweh is not just the Father, but is all three."

Fundamental to the trinity is the belief that Yahweh is the one and only God. Otherwise, you won't be able to understand what we're saying.

Now, after fixing that first sentence, let's look at the rest of your statement:
The trinity is basically the idea that Yahweh is not just the Father, but is all three. God cannot be God without all three. All three are Separate to some extent, but combine not literally but i guess by title, to form what we call God. Yes? God the father is not God, God the spirit is Not God, and Jesus is not God, but all three together as one in title is God. Yes?

My response:
Not exactly correct yet. The unity isn't by title only; rather it is by being and essence. That's why it is so important to understand that we believe in one God, Yahweh. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not separate entities, somehow outside of Yahweh.

God the Father is Yahweh.
God the Son (Jesus) is Yahweh.
God the Holy Spirit is Yahweh.
The three-in-one is Yahweh.

Yet, at the same time, the Father is not Jesus. The Father is not the Holy Spirit.
Jesus is not the Father. Jesus is not the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is not the Father. The Holy Spirit is not Jesus.

The Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are not gods, and they are not Gods. We use the word "Persons," but by the term "person," we do not mean humans or human-like.

The Athanasian Creed explains it better than I can (I'm going to break it up into small paragraphs. Hopefully it will be easier to read that way):

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence.

For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost.

The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite.

So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord.

For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords.

The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding.

So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Essence of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Essence of his Mother, born in the world.

Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood by God. One altogether; not by confusion of Essence; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of the God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.
I should have thought of one of the creeds. They do explain it better.
 
T

tucksma

Guest
When I look up that word it can mean many different things.

'elohiym - Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon - King James Version

You are dead set against the trinity aren't you...
Oh I agree! It doesn't always mean angels, but it doesn't mean Yahweh it means mighty ones. I'm pretty sure there are actually men who are called Elohim, but I'm not 100% sure so don't hold me to that. It's the concept that God uses them to do his will. God himself literally did not create us, but his will commanded what did, which I believe to be the angels because they are the doers of God's will.
 
A

Arwen4CJ

Guest
Saying God is not a person doesn't make him impersonal. Dogs are not people but they interact with people.
That is what we mean by saying "God is personal," or "God has personhood." We mean that He is not an impersonal force.
 
T

tucksma

Guest
I am glad that you are taking the time to find out what it is that we actually believe :)

You wrote:
"The trinity is basically the idea that God is not just Yahweh, but all three."

Incorrect. Let me rephrase the sentence you wrote so that it is right:
"The trinity is basically the idea that Yahweh is not just the Father, but is all three."

Fundamental to the trinity is the belief that Yahweh is the one and only God. Otherwise, you won't be able to understand what we're saying.

Now, after fixing that first sentence, let's look at the rest of your statement:
The trinity is basically the idea that Yahweh is not just the Father, but is all three. God cannot be God without all three. All three are Separate to some extent, but combine not literally but i guess by title, to form what we call God. Yes? God the father is not God, God the spirit is Not God, and Jesus is not God, but all three together as one in title is God. Yes?

My response:
Not exactly correct yet. The unity isn't by title only; rather it is by being and essence. That's why it is so important to understand that we believe in one God, Yahweh. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not separate entities, somehow outside of Yahweh.

God the Father is Yahweh.
God the Son (Jesus) is Yahweh.
God the Holy Spirit is Yahweh.
The three-in-one is Yahweh.

Yet, at the same time, the Father is not Jesus. The Father is not the Holy Spirit.
Jesus is not the Father. Jesus is not the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is not the Father. The Holy Spirit is not Jesus.

The Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are not gods, and they are not Gods. We use the word "Persons," but by the term "person," we do not mean humans or human-like.

The Athanasian Creed explains it better than I can (I'm going to break it up into small paragraphs. Hopefully it will be easier to read that way):

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence.

For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost.

The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite.

So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord.

For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords.

The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding.

So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Essence of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Essence of his Mother, born in the world.

Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood by God. One altogether; not by confusion of Essence; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of the God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.
The problem with the creed is that it says all three are equal, but Jesus says himself the father is over the son. I see what it is saying though. I still disagree, but I do get what I disagree with better.
 
T

tucksma

Guest
That is what we mean by saying "God is personal," or "God has personhood." We mean that He is not an impersonal force.
I don't think you meant he was a literaly person, i was just explaining what he was getting at, I saw what you meant.
 
A

Arwen4CJ

Guest
Both Jesus and God can be called Lord. I don't know id that is or isn't what is happening but Lord doesn't mean God it means master. Both Jesus and God are masters. Jesus is my king, God is my God.
Doesn't God ultimately become King? If so, then Jesus fulfills this.
 
A

Arwen4CJ

Guest
I don't think you meant he was a literaly person, i was just explaining what he was getting at, I saw what you meant.
Thanks :) I just wanted to make sure we were all on the same page.
 
T

tucksma

Guest
And with judgement that is a different topic all together. I view the judgement a lot different but that's because of everything. Basically for me to explain how I view judgement i have to go into EVERYTHING I believe and that would take forever and a day and would bare no fruit because this debate would go from one thing to TONS and a debate like that doesn't help anyone and only causes problems. I'm not trying to avoid it because I'm scared to talk about it, just to keep the conversation focused on trinity or no trinity.
 
T

tucksma

Guest
Nope, Jesus is our king doing God's will perfectly, where God is our God who is the one thing above Jesus.
 
A

Arwen4CJ

Guest
The problem with the creed is that it says all three are equal, but Jesus says himself the father is over the son. I see what it is saying though. I still disagree, but I do get what I disagree with better.
I'm glad that it helped you to understand what the Trinity is better. :)

The fundamental question comes down to whether or not Jesus is Yahweh or not. Trinitarians say yes. Non-trinitarians say no.
 
Nov 19, 2012
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Actually my faith almost always quotes it, I didn't because I assumed you knew being as smart as you think you are.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. (gen. 1)

This God is Elohim. (sorry been saying emanuel, wrong "e" word) Elohim can refer to angels.

Your very own example has mankind being created THREE times....why?
 
K

krow

Guest
Nope, Jesus is our king doing God's will perfectly, where God is our God who is the one thing above Jesus.
Do you believe Jesus is God in the flesh or not? Your just letting human words and expressions mess everything up.
 
Nov 19, 2012
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He says the pharisees were hypocrites, not the unbelieving Jews, but I could be wrong there. And there is a difference.


Jesus had the right to call them children of the devil because he clearly knew the truth as he was from God. You are not from God, and have no authority given to you to call me a so called "spade". Learn your place and humble yourself before Jesus, for you do not have the authority he has.

Jesus addressing the Jews

υμεις εκ του πατρος του διαβολου εστε και τας επιθυμιας του πατρος υμων θελετε ποιειν εκεινος ανθρωποκτονος ην απ αρχης και εν τη αληθεια ουκ εστηκεν οτι ουκ εστιν αληθεια εν αυτω οταν λαλη το ψευδος εκ των ιδιων λαλει οτι ψευστης εστιν και ο πατηρ αυτου εγω δε οτι την αληθειαν λεγω ου πιστευετε μοι

umeis ek tou patros tau diabolou este kai tas epithumias tou patros umōn thelete poiein ekeinos anthrōpoktonos ēn ap archēs kai en tē alētheia ouk estēken oti ouk estin alētheia en autō otan lalē to pseudos ek tōn idiōn lalei oti pseustēs estin kai ho patēr autou egō de oti tēn alētheian legō ou pisteuete moi

You are from the Devil as the father, and the lusts of your father you desire to do. That one was a murderer from the beginning, and he has not stood in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own, because he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. (John 8.44 – 45)



Here we have Jesus, Himself, proclaiming to the unbelieving Jews, in no uncertain terms, that they are from the Devil.

Jews who do not acknowledge Jesus as The Truth are doing the Devil’s work – they are following the Devil’s desires (epithumias), of which, he has been a murderer of man (anthrōpoktonos) from the very beginning.

Jesus had already rightly labeled Jews as murderers and liars long before they killed Him.





I am willing to learn, if you can prove the trinity exists, which you have failed to do because you have no silver bullet that states the trinity has to exist, but I have given one that you haven't explained John 17: 21.
Ignoring scripture that does not fit the Christadelphian cult worldview will not change the truth of the Trinity.

 
Nov 19, 2012
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I have never said there aren't verses that would support a trinity. There are TONS. But there are also some that support no trinity.
The Trinity already comprehends ALL of scripture.

You are now stuck on a verse which you are unable to exegete as to why it supposedly thwarts the Trinity.

Its pretty hard to thwart something that YOU can't even define, yourself, to begin with....

This is called a straw-man...
 
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It's the same Idea of an angel doing God's work. Everyone would say God did it, but an angel REALLY did it. (ex. when moses got the law on the mountain, the OT says it was Yahweh, but in Acts it says it was an angel)
No.

Acts states that it was a Messenger....as in Malek Yahweh.
 
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I believe God created me, using the angels. Does that answer your question (I'm not sure EXACTLY what you are asking so sorry if I'm misanswering)
Angels are created beings.....they do not create anything.
 
T

tucksma

Guest
No.

Acts states that it was a Messenger....as in Malek Yahweh.
and you are assuming Malek Yahweh is Jesus! It doesn't say he is. Malek Yahweh means messenger of God! Stop assuming.
 
Nov 19, 2012
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Show me a verse that says that. Angels do God's will and if it is God's will for them to create they will.
God creates ex-nihilo by using the creation verb 'bara'.

Angels do not.