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Thread: There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity

  1. #1381
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    Default Re: There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity

    Quote Originally Posted by johnluke View Post
    Your right, throughout the scriptures the Trinity is spelled out quite clearly if you are looking to confirm the number of Persons in the Trinity. We already agree that there are 3 members in the Godhead, that is no mystery. What is a mystery is at that moment in time and space (VCO likes that concept) where are the 3 members of the Trinity?
    We know the Holy Ghost, is upon Mary. We know the Most High is on the outside of Mary casting a shadow over her (and the Holy Ghost who is upon her.) This scripture does not tell us where Jesus is.
    So although Luke 1:35 declares that the Trinity is 3, the mystery is where is the Son of God at this time?
    The Son is God.

    As such, He is omnipresent.
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    Default Re: There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity

    Just to answer the question (the title of thread).

    I have yet to see any scripture that disproves the trinity.
    Soli Deo Gloria

    "After all, there is a Protestantism still worth contending for, there is a Calvinism still worth proclaiming, and a gospel well worth dying for" - C H Spurgeon



    • "What God requires of us he himself works in us, or it is not done. He that commands faith, holiness, and love, creates them by the power of his grace..." - Matthew Henry

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    Default Re: Study up...

    Quote Originally Posted by johnluke View Post
    consubstantial means only 1 thing to me, "of the same substance". So to me when Trinitarians say that God the Father is not Jesus and Jesus is not God the Father and they are 2 separate and distinct Persons, I envision God the Father and Jesus and the Holy Ghost in 1 body. All 3 (and I'm going to use a weird word) squished into 1 body. So that if you were to see the Trinity, you would see 1 God (entity) standing before you, but inside that 1 God (entity) are 3 Personages. These 3 personages are consubstantial or "of the same substance". So that wherever the Father goes, the Son goes, and the Holy Ghost goes and vise versa.
    That is why Matthew 3:16-17 clashes with my concept of the Trinity. 3 Persons sharing the same body (3 persons, 1 God)
    3 consubstantial Persons in the same body. Matthew makes it clear that the 3 are independently separate and distinct from each other and are absolutely not consubstantial, they are not of the same substance. I'm not sure if that is clear enough, so help me with this understanding.
    Where does Scripture say that God has a physical body? (Besides Jesus in the incarnation).

    You're still trying to put human understanding on God. The thing is that we can't comprehend God fully. All we can go on is what He has revealed about Himself. We don't exactly know how the triune God works. All we know is that there is one God (as Scripture says multiple times), and that the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all Him, though the Persons are obviously not each other. That's the evidence we have.

    We can't just make things up, forming a false view of God in our minds, creating our own idol, and then reject it because it doesn't make sense to our minds.

    The only judge of doctrine should be Scripture, not our imagination. Scripture says this:
    There is only one God.
    The Father is God.
    Jesus is God.
    The Holy Spirit is God.

    But the Father is not Jesus.
    The Father is not the Holy Spirit.

    Jesus is not the Father.
    Jesus is not the Holy Spirit.

    The Holy Spirit is not the Father.
    The Holy Spirit is not Jesus.

    Yet, we still have one God. Therefore the one God must be triune.
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    Default Re: There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity

    Quote Originally Posted by johnluke View Post
    Arewn4CJ, this is how I describe the Godhead. 3 people aren't the same being, even though they are joined together in mind and will and purpose and action. And that purpose and action is to create men and help them realize salvation in the Kingdom of God and live with God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost forever.
    But the three Persons have to be one Being, and that is Yahweh.

    Otherwise there would be more than one god, and we know that that is not the case.

    Don't think of Being like a physical body. God is different from us.

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    Default Re: There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity

    Quote Originally Posted by secularhermit View Post
    As long as I can read about it, it was given in the name of Jesus. It wasn't used the fashion Jesus supposedly said it be done so and, IF WATER COULD SAVE, The Spirit (its baptizim) would be needless... Jesus baptizes in the fire of the Spirit of the Father. It is God life who really save, not those "formulae" we are suppose to please God (same way Jesus said one of those thieves would we with Him in the Paradise). Saved by deeds or beliefs? Both things surely count, but certain deeds are more important that beliefs

    For example, as I told a Catholic, why insisting on the virginity of Mary after Jesus's birth? She was married. She was a woman (probably a beautiful woman with human longings). Why keeping that state of eternal virginity? Does God need people deprived from their body, when it is sexed, because God designed us to be sexed to have children and populate His world?
    I am not Catholic, but I believe in the Virgin Birth and the Virgin Mary. I don't pray to her or worship her but I do believe in the virginity. If Jesus had come from Mary and Joseph the way you and I came from our parents then they could have boasted, the greatness would have been their's not God's. Son of God means just that, SON of God, not the person God wanted to play that role.

    I hope I'm explaining this well enough. The Virgin birth was necessary, but I don't focus on it too much. I place my focus on God's grace, love and forgiveness.
    Psalm 143:10 "Teach me to do Your will, for you are my God
    may Your good Spirit lead me on level ground." Praises to God everyday!

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    Default Re: There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity

    Quote Originally Posted by Nancyer View Post
    I am not Catholic, but I believe in the Virgin Birth and the Virgin Mary. I don't pray to her or worship her but I do believe in the virginity. If Jesus had come from Mary and Joseph the way you and I came from our parents then they could have boasted, the greatness would have been their's not God's. Son of God means just that, SON of God, not the person God wanted to play that role.

    I hope I'm explaining this well enough. The Virgin birth was necessary, but I don't focus on it too much. I place my focus on God's grace, love and forgiveness.
    Looking at the quote....I think that secular hermit was talking about the Roman Catholic belief that Mary was always a virgin, even after giving birth to Jesus, and that she remained a virgin for life.

    To say that he doesn't believe that she remained a virgin after Jesus' birth is not denying Jesus' virgin birth. It denies Roman Catholic teaching on Mary, but it doesn't deny the virgin birth.

    I agree that the virgin birth is important. I also do not believe in the Roman Catholic teaching that Mary remained a virgin after giving birth to Jesus. I only believe she was a virgin before giving birth to Him. Further, I do not believe in the Roman Catholic teaching that states that Mary herself was born of a virgin.
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    Default Re: Study up...

    Quote Originally Posted by Arwen4CJ View Post
    Where does Scripture say that God has a physical body? (Besides Jesus in the incarnation).

    You're still trying to put human understanding on God. The thing is that we can't comprehend God fully. All we can go on is what He has revealed about Himself. We don't exactly know how the triune God works. All we know is that there is one God (as Scripture says multiple times), and that the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all Him, though the Persons are obviously not each other. That's the evidence we have.

    We can't just make things up, forming a false view of God in our minds, creating our own idol, and then reject it because it doesn't make sense to our minds.

    The only judge of doctrine should be Scripture, not our imagination. Scripture says this:
    There is only one God.
    The Father is God.
    Jesus is God.
    The Holy Spirit is God.

    But the Father is not Jesus.
    The Father is not the Holy Spirit.

    Jesus is not the Father.
    Jesus is not the Holy Spirit.

    The Holy Spirit is not the Father.
    The Holy Spirit is not Jesus.

    Yet, we still have one God. Therefore the one God must be triune.
    Where does scripture say that God has a physical body, besides Jesus in the incarnation?

    I want you to read Genesis 5:3 and then Genesis 1:26. Compare these 2 scriptures and pay particular attention to the words "image" and "likeness", as you think about the physical comparison of Adam to Seth in 5:3 and Adam to God in 1:26. I would like you to comment on these 2 scriptures and then I will proceed further.
    Last edited by johnluke; January 16th, 2014 at 07:11 PM.

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    Default Re: There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity

    Quote Originally Posted by Arwen4CJ View Post
    But the three Persons have to be one Being, and that is Yahweh.

    Otherwise there would be more than one god, and we know that that is not the case.

    Don't think of Being like a physical body. God is different from us.
    The 3 beings that stood before Abraham had physical bodies. And there was not just 1 being standing beside Abraham.
    The 3 beings stood by each other, the 3 beings ate his victuals, 2 of the beings left to go to Sodom walking on their own 2 feet. 1 being stayed and continued to talk to Abraham.
    So these beings in their physical bodies either were not the Trinity or the Trinity is composed differently than you think.

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    Default Re: There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity

    It's amazing that we even have this conversation, not the one of which reason is that Jesus Christ, himself , fully man, and, fully God, divine, on Earth, told doubting Thomas, in so many acknowledging words, that He was 'Lord' and He was also 'God.'

    My Lord and my God !

    Then He (Jesus) said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing." 28Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"29Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed." John 20: 27-29

    Five words that act as 'one.' And, the Holy Spirit is "in our heart," Scripture tells us; He, too, is a part of the whole one, Lord Jesus Christ who is God as well. "I and the Father are one." John 10:30

    So, these three act in accodance as one, one God, not two, not three, but One

    Hard to wrap your understanding around that, I know, I used to think differently, too, but, the Lord led me and the Lord will lead you. You ask His Spriit to teach you these things just said, for He will, in His 'due time' teach you IF what I say is Truth , or, not .

    And, as you pray, ask His Spirit to guide you, help you, also, then, worship, delve into the bible , into Him, into The Word, and, you will not just learn well, you will learn perfectly well, because it will be said from He who is inside your temple speaking, straight to your mind from where He exists NOW, in your heart. John 14:17


    ------
    Does everything in Scripture need to say , ' Jesus is not God because he's not said directly to be God in the bible.' My, my.

    No, no.

    Figure it out, with Him.

    One God: Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

    We are NOT baptized into three gods, or, thee Gods, we are baptized into one God, who came to Earth as a man to show us the glory of the Father, to relate to us His will, and, how it is to be done, to explain to us how to get to heaven (through the Son ! ) and just normal, everyday things, too, demonstrated, showed us of how to live a spiritual life, how to forgive, how to pray, how to die, even, as, He calls us all, through Paul, to be 'crucified' in Himself. Notice the word Paul uses in Galatians 2:20 is not 'sacrificed,' it's "CRUCIFIED."

    Crucify yourself in Him, not in Him and him and him, or, how you want to view the other two, small 'h' way you want to say. No! Crucified in Christ. In Him, and, in Christ alone, and, in Him alone.

    CRUCIFY yourself in Christ. Jesus showed us EXACTLY how this is done, too

    Galatians 2

    For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.
    Last edited by GreenNnice; January 16th, 2014 at 08:14 PM.
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    God bless your days !

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    Default Re: Study up...

    Quote Originally Posted by johnluke View Post
    Where does scripture say that God has a physical body, besides Jesus in the incarnation?

    I want you to read Genesis 5:3 and then Genesis 1:26. Compare these 2 scriptures and pay particular attention to the words "image" and "likeness", as you think about the physical comparison of Adam to Seth in 5:3 and Adam to God in 1:26. I would like you to comment on these 2 scriptures and then I will proceed further.

    The 'image and likeness' in Gen 1 refers to the Triune Creator God via the creation verb 'bara' used thrice in the CREATION of man - when once should have sufficed - but each person of the Trinity is addressed and recognized in this singular creation event.

    Gen 5 uses the same formula as Gen 1, except the reader is informed that everyone AFTER Adam & Eve is BEGOTTEN in the 'image and likeness' of fallen man.

    See the difference...?
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    Default Re: Study up...

    Quote Originally Posted by johnluke View Post
    Where does scripture say that God has a physical body, besides Jesus in the incarnation?

    I want you to read Genesis 5:3 and then Genesis 1:26. Compare these 2 scriptures and pay particular attention to the words "image" and "likeness", as you think about the physical comparison of Adam to Seth in 5:3 and Adam to God in 1:26. I would like you to comment on these 2 scriptures and then I will proceed further.
    Genesis 5:3 (NASB)
    3 When Adam had lived one hundred and thirty years, he [a]became the father of a son in his own likeness, according to his image, and named him Seth.

    Genesis 1:26-27 (NASB)
    26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the [a]sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

    Genesis 1:26 doesn't work well if you are denying the Trinity. You have a God who is singular and yet plural here. He says "Us" and "Our" image, but then it said that humans were created in God's image.

    Secondly, who is to say that the image is physical? Being physically alike isn't the only way that we could be created in the image of God. And the same is true of verse 5:3. It doesn't necessarily mean that Seth looks exactly like Adam, as his little clone. The text doesn't say "physical likeness," or "physical image."

    The only people I know who take "image of God" as being physical are the Mormons. Most Christian theologians think of it in terms of non-physical likeness.

    I can see how and why you are interpreting it the way that you do, but there isn't any Scripture to support that God actually has a body.

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    Default Re: Study up...


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    Default Re: There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity

    Quote Originally Posted by johnluke View Post
    VCO

    The quote i made that you are referring to is just my reiteration of what Arwen4CJ said in his quote on P.67 quote #1338 see his second paragraph.
    So are you really serious about the simplicity issue with my position.
    Here it is: God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are 3 separate and distinct Persons. If you were to see them standing by you, you would actually see 3 Persons. Just like Abraham when he looked up and saw 3 men standing by him in Genesis 18. Just like at the baptism of Jesus in Matthew 16 where 1 Person is on the ground, 1 Person in the heavens speaking to the onlookers, and 1 Person coming down from heaven and finally lighting on Jesus, clearly separate and distinct. Just like when Stephen in Acts was being questioned and he looked into the heavens and the heavens were open and he saw Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 2 Persons standing side by side and the Holy Ghost was in him. His declaration that he saw Jesus standing next to God got the Jews so mad that they rushed on him and killed him. See
    Acts 7:56. So according to lots of Biblical support, I believe in God the Father and in His Son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost. 3 Persons, separate and distinct from each other. Because they work so perfectly together in mind and will and purpose and action, it is as if they are 1 God. It is the only answer that I have found that reconciles the entire Bible.
    Now lets try your simple Trinity.
    "Their" (?) single Deity is Omnipresent at all times in time and space. Their Personages, are 3 separate and distinct functions within a singular Godhead. Wow, what a mouthful. "Their single" how simple is that to explain? "Time and space" how simple is that to explain? "Their Personages are 3 separate and distinct functions in singular God", how do you explain that?
    How do you answer the myriad of questions that come from that Greek philosophical verbiage? It always has been that the Trinity and therefore God is not very understandable. That is right, under any circumstances God will be impossible to understand fully. But if you want simple, the Trinity gets as complex as it gets. The Trinity doctrine clashes with so many scriptures in the Bible, you have to really work hard to try to get around that and it doen't always work, believe me I have tried hard.
    You are not going to understand this, because the Doctrine of the Trinity is NOT intellectually understood, it is spiritually understood only by a human spirit that has been brought to eternal life already by the Holy Spirit Himself. The Diety of the Three is ALWAYS coequally invisible and coequally ONE DIVINE BEING, with Paul being the ONLY human that I know of that caught a glimpse of his full Shekinah Glory, And it blinded Paul. The three being one is simple because you are an example of what a triune being is: You are body, soul, and spirit, yet you are ONLY ONE HUMAN BEING. Three parts with three distinctly separate purposes, YET only ONE HUMAN BEING.

    The Father was not seen at the Baptism of Jesus, HE WAS ONLY HEARD TO SPEAK.

    THE Spirit that is the Father is the ONLY GOD that has EVER EXISTED.

    THE Spirit in JESUS is the ONLY GOD THAT HAS EVER EXISTED,

    THE Spirit that is the HOLY SPIRIT is the ONLY GOD THAT HAS EVER EXISTED.

    The Spirit that was in the Burning Bush is the ONLY GOD THAT HAS EVER EXISTED.

    The Spirit that was in the Pillar of Smoike is the ONLY GOD THAT HAS EVER EXISTED.

    EXCETERA.

    THE THREE REALL ARE ONE. I AM IN A MOTEL ROOM TONIGHT WITH A CONNECTION, WILL TYPER MORE TOMORROW.

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    Default Re: There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity

    Quote Originally Posted by johnluke View Post
    VCO

    The quote i made that you are referring to is just my reiteration of what Arwen4CJ said in his quote on P.67 quote #1338 see his second paragraph.
    So are you really serious about the simplicity issue with my position.
    Here it is: God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are 3 separate and distinct Persons. If you were to see them standing by you, you would actually see 3 Persons. Just like Abraham when he looked up and saw 3 men standing by him in Genesis 18. Just like at the baptism of Jesus in Matthew 16 where 1 Person is on the ground, 1 Person in the heavens speaking to the onlookers, and 1 Person coming down from heaven and finally lighting on Jesus, clearly separate and distinct. Just like when Stephen in Acts was being questioned and he looked into the heavens and the heavens were open and he saw Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 2 Persons standing side by side and the Holy Ghost was in him. His declaration that he saw Jesus standing next to God got the Jews so mad that they rushed on him and killed him. See
    Acts 7:56. So according to lots of Biblical support, I believe in God the Father and in His Son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost. 3 Persons, separate and distinct from each other. Because they work so perfectly together in mind and will and purpose and action, it is as if they are 1 God. It is the only answer that I have found that reconciles the entire Bible.
    Now lets try your simple Trinity.
    "Their" (?) single Deity is Omnipresent at all times in time and space. Their Personages, are 3 separate and distinct functions within a singular Godhead. Wow, what a mouthful. "Their single" how simple is that to explain? "Time and space" how simple is that to explain? "Their Personages are 3 separate and distinct functions in singular God", how do you explain that?
    How do you answer the myriad of questions that come from that Greek philosophical verbiage? It always has been that the Trinity and therefore God is not very understandable. That is right, under any circumstances God will be impossible to understand fully. But if you want simple, the Trinity gets as complex as it gets. The Trinity doctrine clashes with so many scriptures in the Bible, you have to really work hard to try to get around that and it doen't always work, believe me I have tried hard.
    Wow was that internet connection last night in the motel, BAD. I lost the connection 3 times trying to type one post.

    As I was trying to explain last night, every physical manifestation of GOD is ALWAYS the same GOD, because in reality ALL THERE IS, WAS, and EVER WILL BE is ONE GOD ONLY.

    2 Chronicles 13:9 (GW)
    9 You forced out the LORD'S priests who were Aaron's descendants, and you forced out the Levites so that you could appoint your own priests, as the people in foreign countries do. Anyone who has a young bull and seven rams can be ordained as a priest of nonexistent gods.

    Isaiah 31:3 (GW)
    3 The Egyptians are humans, not gods. Their horses are flesh and blood, not spirit. When the LORD uses his powerful hand, the one who gives help will stumble, and the one who receives help will fall. Both will die together.

    Jeremiah 2:11 (ESV)
    11 Has a nation changed its gods, even though they are no gods? But my people have changed their glory for that which does not profit.

    Jeremiah 16:20 (ESV)
    20 Can man make for himself gods? Such are not gods!

    Jeremiah 5:7 (HCSB)
    7 Why should I forgive you? Your children have abandoned Me and sworn by those who are not gods. I satisfied their needs, yet they committed adultery; they gashed themselves at the prostitute’s house.

    Isaiah 43:10 (HCSB)
    10 “You are My witnesses”— ⌊this is⌋ the LORD’s declaration— “and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. No god was formed before Me, and there will be none after Me.

    THEREFORE every physical manifestation of GOD is the same GOD, BUT the physical manifestation IS NEVER THE TOTALITY OF GOD, because HE IS AN OMNIPRESENT SPIRIT. The physical part of JESUS really was human, but likewise, the Spiritual part of JESUS really was YAHWEH Himself.

    You say you have tried very hard to comprehend the Three being ONE GOD. That is the problem, it is YOU trying really hard with your soul (human Mind), when it is ONLY with your human spirit that you can Comprehend the THREE being ONE GOD. AND that human spirit HAS TO BE brought to eternal life first by the Holy Spirit before you can begin to comprehend. May I suggest, that you stop trying intellectually, admit to GOD, I CAN'T DO IT, if you really want to understand, then ASK HIM TO please come into my heart, and take complete control of my life forever, and give me understanding.

    "I CAN'T" are the most powerful words I know, when you are surrendering complete control to GOD forever.
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    Default Re: Study up...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bowman View Post
    The 'image and likeness' in Gen 1 refers to the Triune Creator God via the creation verb 'bara' used thrice in the CREATION of man - when once should have sufficed - but each person of the Trinity is addressed and recognized in this singular creation event.

    Gen 5 uses the same formula as Gen 1, except the reader is informed that everyone AFTER Adam & Eve is BEGOTTEN in the 'image and likeness' of fallen man.

    See the difference...?
    The words "image and likeness" absolutely refers to the Godhead in 1:26. The Godhead is making (asah) man in 1:26 and they made man to look just like them.
    Not only in form = image (1 head, 1 torso, 2 arms, 2 legs, 10 fingers, 10 toes)
    But also in substance = likeness (mind/will and flesh and spirit)
    There is not doubt what Moses meant in 1:26, he had meant everything "literally" about the creation up to 1:26 and he is "literal" in 1:26 as he states that God made man in his image and in his likeness. Kind of hard to get around that verbiage in 1:26, but add the verbiage in 5:3 and you have a rock solid case for what the members of the Godhead look like. We know he wasn't making a mistake because he actually saw God face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend. So we know Moses saw God's face and probably the front part of his body (Exodus 33:11)
    Then Moses asks God to show him His glory. God told Moses that he could not withstand His full glory, but He would put Moses in a clift of the rock and when He passed by He would protect him so His full glory would not be seen, but Moses could see the glory of his back parts. So that is what happened, Moses saw God's back parts. (Exodus 33:23)
    Now from Moses we know specifically from the scriptures that God has a face and back parts, it is not a great leap in faith to come to a conclusion that he has all the body parts that normal man has. Since he made (asah) man, literally in His image and likeness, we can easily reverse that and say the members of the Godhead are in the image and likeness of man.
    One last comment. I am not stupid to think that my mortal body is as powerful and glorious as God's mind/will, body, and spirit. They are different, but only in power and glory. For instance, when Jesus was resurrected, his mortal body changed into an eternal, perfect, (you name the adjective) body. But even though this body could go through walls, could float into the heavens, etc, etc, etc, it was also able to eat and drink food and water. When Jesus came to earth and met with Paul on the road to Damascus, he was much more powerful and glorious, but none the less he was in that same body that his apostles saw and felt. He has that same body today, sitting on the right side of his father, God the Father.
    I believe our bodies too, will be much more powerful and glorious when we are resurrected beings. You got an idea about that on the mount of transfiguration when Moses and Elijah came down to meet with Jesus and their bodies shown bright and glorious.
    So don't give in to your Greek metaphysical philosophies of God. Stay with the original Hebrew prophets revelations about God.

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    Default Re: Study up...

    Quote Originally Posted by johnluke View Post
    The words "image and likeness" absolutely refers to the Godhead in 1:26. The Godhead is making (asah) man in 1:26 and they made man to look just like them.
    Not only in form = image (1 head, 1 torso, 2 arms, 2 legs, 10 fingers, 10 toes)
    But also in substance = likeness (mind/will and flesh and spirit)
    There is not doubt what Moses meant in 1:26, he had meant everything "literally" about the creation up to 1:26 and he is "literal" in 1:26 as he states that God made man in his image and in his likeness. Kind of hard to get around that verbiage in 1:26, but add the verbiage in 5:3 and you have a rock solid case for what the members of the Godhead look like. We know he wasn't making a mistake because he actually saw God face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend. So we know Moses saw God's face and probably the front part of his body (Exodus 33:11)
    Then Moses asks God to show him His glory. God told Moses that he could not withstand His full glory, but He would put Moses in a clift of the rock and when He passed by He would protect him so His full glory would not be seen, but Moses could see the glory of his back parts. So that is what happened, Moses saw God's back parts. (Exodus 33:23)
    Now from Moses we know specifically from the scriptures that God has a face and back parts, it is not a great leap in faith to come to a conclusion that he has all the body parts that normal man has. Since he made (asah) man, literally in His image and likeness, we can easily reverse that and say the members of the Godhead are in the image and likeness of man.
    One last comment. I am not stupid to think that my mortal body is as powerful and glorious as God's mind/will, body, and spirit. They are different, but only in power and glory. For instance, when Jesus was resurrected, his mortal body changed into an eternal, perfect, (you name the adjective) body. But even though this body could go through walls, could float into the heavens, etc, etc, etc, it was also able to eat and drink food and water. When Jesus came to earth and met with Paul on the road to Damascus, he was much more powerful and glorious, but none the less he was in that same body that his apostles saw and felt. He has that same body today, sitting on the right side of his father, God the Father.
    I believe our bodies too, will be much more powerful and glorious when we are resurrected beings. You got an idea about that on the mount of transfiguration when Moses and Elijah came down to meet with Jesus and their bodies shown bright and glorious.
    So don't give in to your Greek metaphysical philosophies of God. Stay with the original Hebrew prophets revelations about God.
    By that logic, God would have to have wings, too:
    Ruth 2:12 (NASB)
    May the Lord reward your work, and your wages be full from the LORD, the God of Israel, under whose wings you have come to seek refuge.”

    Psalm 17:8 (NASB)
    Keep me as the apple of the eye; Hide me in the shadow of Your wings

    Psalm 36:7 (NASB)
    How precious is Your lovingkindness, O God! And the children of men take refuge in the shadow of Your wings.

    Psalm 57:1 (NASB)
    [ Prayer for Rescue from Persecutors. ] [ For the choir director; set to Al-tashheth. A Mikhtam of David, when he fled from Saul in the cave. ] Be gracious to me, O God, be gracious to me, For my soul takes refuge in You; And in the shadow of Your wings I will take refuge Until destruction passes by.

    Psalm 61:4 (NASB)
    Let me dwell in Your tent forever; Let me take refuge in the shelter of Your wings. Selah.

    Psalm 63:7 (NASB)
    For You have been my help, And in the shadow of Your wings I sing for joy.

    Obviously, this is just metaphorical. The same is true for the "face," "back," and "hands" of God.

    And, yes, when Jesus was resurrected, He had a resurrection body (or glorified body), which is the same type that we will have in the resurrection, at Jesus' Second Coming.

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    Default Re: Study up...

    Quote Originally Posted by Arwen4CJ View Post
    Genesis 5:3 (NASB)
    3 When Adam had lived one hundred and thirty years, he [a]became the father of a son in his own likeness, according to his image, and named him Seth.

    Genesis 1:26-27 (NASB)
    26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the [a]sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

    Genesis 1:26 doesn't work well if you are denying the Trinity. You have a God who is singular and yet plural here. He says "Us" and "Our" image, but then it said that humans were created in God's image.

    Secondly, who is to say that the image is physical? Being physically alike isn't the only way that we could be created in the image of God. And the same is true of verse 5:3. It doesn't necessarily mean that Seth looks exactly like Adam, as his little clone. The text doesn't say "physical likeness," or "physical image."

    The only people I know who take "image of God" as being physical are the Mormons. Most Christian theologians think of it in terms of non-physical likeness.

    I can see how and why you are interpreting it the way that you do, but there isn't any Scripture to support that God actually has a body.
    I do not deny that there are 3, I do deny that those 3 are 1.
    When God said "Let us", was he speaking to another person inside of himself?
    In English, if someone says " let us " you know there are 2 separate people involved. Not 1 person speaking to a 2nd person inside of himself.

    You ask, who is to say "image" is physical?
    The answer is, the scriptures say.
    That is why Moses put the word "likeness" in 1:26 so people would not be able to interpret the word "image" many different ways. You couple "likeness" with "image" and it becomes physical. Then you read 5:3 and that relationship is definitely physical (even though Seth is not a twin of Adam, his image and likeness is just like Adams, who's image and likeness is just like the members of the Godhead).

    The Mormons don't just take the "image of God". They take the whole scripture which says the "image and likeness of God".
    Then they take 5:3 and come to the same conclusion that Moses wanted men to know that the Godhead made man to have the same form and substance that they have. It is Their crowning creation.

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    Default Re: Study up...

    Quote Originally Posted by johnluke View Post
    The words "image and likeness" absolutely refers to the Godhead in 1:26. The Godhead is making (asah) man in 1:26 and they made man to look just like them.
    Not only in form = image (1 head, 1 torso, 2 arms, 2 legs, 10 fingers, 10 toes)
    But also in substance = likeness (mind/will and flesh and spirit)
    There is not doubt what Moses meant in 1:26, he had meant everything "literally" about the creation up to 1:26 and he is "literal" in 1:26 as he states that God made man in his image and in his likeness. Kind of hard to get around that verbiage in 1:26,
    Gen 1.26 mentions a SINGULAR likeness and a SINGULAR image from a plural entity.

    The only agreement here would be that the creation verb employed, ‘asah’, refers to fashioning a thing with preexisting material building blocks…i.e. dust of the earth, etc. which is elaborated upon in Gen 2.

    That mankind is both from the animal kingdom and the spiritual kingdom is confirmed in Gen 1.26 – 27…in which the previous existing earthly elements are combined with a brand new ‘spirit’ via the creation verb ‘bara’, used not once, not twice, but THREE times in Gen 1.27 – exemplifying the Triune Creator.

    That the creation event of Adam & Eve was in the image and likeness of the Triune Creator informs the reader not only of a physical image but of a spiritual image.

    Agreement here would be that The Second Person of the Trinity is who Adam & Eve were fashioned after.

    A literal rendering of the text mandates that The Son was the first parent to Adam & Eve.

    Disagreement would be that you deny The Trinity.



    but add the verbiage in 5:3 and you have a rock solid case for what the members of the Godhead look like.
    The ‘bara’, ‘bara’, bara’ formula of Gen 5 is repeated and directed towards Adam & Eve.

    The formula then changes to the BEGOTTEN of Adam and lists ONLY the males as all after Adam are in his sinful image and likeness and sin is carried through the males….which is why Jesus needed to be born of a woman with no earthly father.




    We know he wasn't making a mistake because he actually saw God face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend. So we know Moses saw God's face and probably the front part of his body (Exodus 33:11)
    Then Moses asks God to show him His glory. God told Moses that he could not withstand His full glory, but He would put Moses in a clift of the rock and when He passed by He would protect him so His full glory would not be seen, but Moses could see the glory of his back parts. So that is what happened, Moses saw God's back parts. (Exodus 33:23)
    The ‘face-to-face’ was with Yahweh in a cloud pillar….no human form.

    ‘The Glory’ of God that Moses beheld was, once again, The Second Person of the Trinity….just as He is likewise called in the NT.

    You cannot see God The Father and physically live….however, you can see God The Son and God The Spirit and live.



    Now from Moses we know specifically from the scriptures that God has a face and back parts, it is not a great leap in faith to come to a conclusion that he has all the body parts that normal man has. Since he made (asah) man, literally in His image and likeness, we can easily reverse that and say the members of the Godhead are in the image and likeness of man
    .


    Yahweh routinely took human form in the OT, through Malek Yahweh, El Shaddai, The Glory, The Word of Yahweh, etc, etc…..this is old news…



    One last comment. I am not stupid to think that my mortal body is as powerful and glorious as God's mind/will, body, and spirit. They are different, but only in power and glory. For instance, when Jesus was resurrected, his mortal body changed into an eternal, perfect, (you name the adjective) body. But even though this body could go through walls, could float into the heavens, etc, etc, etc, it was also able to eat and drink food and water. When Jesus came to earth and met with Paul on the road to Damascus, he was much more powerful and glorious, but none the less he was in that same body that his apostles saw and felt. He has that same body today, sitting on the right side of his father, God the Father.
    I believe our bodies too, will be much more powerful and glorious when we are resurrected beings. You got an idea about that on the mount of transfiguration when Moses and Elijah came down to meet with Jesus and their bodies shown bright and glorious.
    So don't give in to your Greek metaphysical philosophies of God. Stay with the original Hebrew prophets revelations about God.

    We can agree on some theophanies, however, you are delinquent in what these refer to and how they were used.
    Last edited by Bowman; January 20th, 2014 at 07:03 PM.

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    Default Re: Study up...

    Quote Originally Posted by johnluke View Post
    I do not deny that there are 3, I do deny that those 3 are 1.
    When God said "Let us", was he speaking to another person inside of himself?
    In English, if someone says " let us " you know there are 2 separate people involved. Not 1 person speaking to a 2nd person inside of himself.
    But all of the "us" is God. It isn't one God talking to another god. It is at least two Persons who are God talking to each other. If you look at the parts I put in bold, you can see that the "Us" is all God.

    I know that you believe that it is three Gods in Three Persons rather than one God in Three Persons. But my point is that the verse shows that there is more than one Person who is God, yet a singular God created humans.

    Genesis 1:26-27 (NASB)
    26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the [a]sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

    Do you see?
    1.) God said, "Let us...." -- that is one singular God who is using a plural for Himself, so He must be speaking within Himself.

    2.) He continues to use plurals for Himself, "Our image, Our likeness."

    3.) Then the text says that the singular God created us in His image. The text doesn't say that the Gods created us in Their own image. It says, "His own image."

    4.) Then it repeats it again and says in the image of God He created..." It doesn't say, "in the image of the Gods They created...."

    Do you see?

    So, regardless of our limited human understanding, it is clear that, yes, there are at least two Persons speaking to one another. At the same time, these Persons are all God. The Persons are not each their own separate God.

    You ask, who is to say "image" is physical?
    The answer is, the scriptures say.
    That is why Moses put the word "likeness" in 1:26 so people would not be able to interpret the word "image" many different ways. You couple "likeness" with "image" and it becomes physical. Then you read 5:3 and that relationship is definitely physical (even though Seth is not a twin of Adam, his image and likeness is just like Adams, who's image and likeness is just like the members of the Godhead).
    You assume that it always means physical, and that it can't mean something like spiritual, or the ability to reason, or the ability to love, or the ability to have relationship, etc.

    If all the descriptions of God are to be taken literally, and we look exactly like God, then where are our wings?

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    Default Re: There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity

    If you take the bible in part, then, yes, there will be Scriptures that, seemingly, can disprove the Trinity. But, as a whole, and , we are to understand the whole of the bible, Old Testament, New Testament, together, then, it's going to be the Lord showing you the Truth, but, it's quite obvious, to me, that God is in three forms and the Scriptures make that clear as One
    cfultz3 likes this.
    Without God, we have nothing. With Him, we have everything we ever need, and, more.

    Is compassion compassion at all if it's not based on the Truth ?

    The Holy Spirit leads ALL believers lives, wants to. Are you letting Him lead yours ?

    God bless your days !

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