There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity

[NWL]

The study of the original languages is the most basic prerequisite for proper translation.
No Biblical Manuscripts support the NWT....hence, your mindset...

This is the Biblical claim...not mine.

You quoted no such scripture...

How many mere 'imitators' of God are called Theos?

This verse neither denies Jesus' deity nor the Trinity.

Do you still not yet know what you are against...?


What Biblical Hebrew rule of grammar do you base your assertion upon?


There are very few things in the NT that were not first recorded on the OT.

Matt 18.19 utilizes the same formula as the OT Aaronic blessing in which the NAME Yahweh is repeated THREE times.

The Father and Son have the same name....not that they are each other...but that they are the same One God.

Who's more of a fool Bowman, the fool or the fool who follows him.

I will not be drawn into a childish bickering match, if you want to show me a scripture where Jesus is called Jehovah then do it, assuming things such as "Matt 18.19 [Matt 28:19*] utilizes the same formula as the OT Aaronic blessing in which the NAME Yahweh is repeated THREE times" and then simply ignoring the evidence I produced is not good reasoning at all.

There's no denial that Matt 28:19 can be understood in the way I described, it's simply the case of "I like my idea better than yours" with you, even though you suffer from a lack of evidence and I don't. My reasoning based on Matt 28:19 doesn't even discredit the Trinity, you simply won't budge from you assumption because you want the "name" in the verse to mean "Jehovah" so much even when there's simply no proof!

 

[Arwen4CJ]

Many time in scripture it is spoken that Jehovah has done things alone when in actual fact he hasn't at, when the scriptures say he alone has done something its expressing that he God is the cause of the thing happening or Originator of the event, this is Bibilcal fact my friend.

Jehovah indicates that he “alone” acted when He exacted retribution upon Edom. But, it was not Jehovah who personally punished these people but he used men as agents. So, is there a contradiction here? Or does it just mean that Jehovah as the SOURCE of retribution!?

It would help if you gave the Scripture reference of this so that I can verify what Scripture you are referring to.

Deut 32:12 says: “Jehovah alone kept leading him.” Was Jehovah the “only one” leading Israel?

The NASB translates it this way:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]“The LORD alone guided him,
And there was no foreign god with him.

It depends on perspective -- ultimately, yes, Jehovah was the only one guiding them where they should go. But point taken that He did use humans in the process....but it was still the pillar of fire and the cloud. Now the NT actually says that this was Jesus, as was quoted earlier in this thread.

1 Corinthians 10:1-9 (NASB)

10 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; [SUP]2 [/SUP]and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; [SUP]3 [/SUP]and all ate the same spiritual food; [SUP]4 [/SUP]and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was [SUP][a][/SUP]Christ. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and stood up to play.” [SUP]8 [/SUP]Nor let us act immorally, as some of them [SUP][b][/SUP]did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them [SUP][c][/SUP]did, and were destroyed by the serpents.


You see....Jesus is the revelation of YHWH to us humans.

Jude 1:5-6 (NASB)

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that [SUP][e][/SUP]the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, [SUP][f][/SUP]subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

1. Jude 1:5 Two early mss read Jesus
2. Jude 1:5 Lit the second time

Please note here that the manuscripts that have "Jesus" in there at Jude 1:5 are early manuscripts, not late ones, as is often the case when there is a difference in manuscripts. Now this doesn't prove that the text should say Jesus there, but it does offer evidence that some early Christians believed that it did say that.

Now I know that you might claim that this is just another instance of the Father using Jesus.....but you're having to say that a lot, and it is very clear that the Father and Jesus are both linked to the identity of YHWH.

Ex.32:32-34 says that Jehovah used Moses and an angel to lead Israel! (cf. 1Sam.9:16; 13:13-14; 2Sam;5:1-2). Again, there is no contradiction here. Jehovah used his representatives to lead his people, but He “alone” was the SOURCE of direction!

Exodus 32:32-34 (NASB)
[SUP]32 [/SUP]But now, if You will, forgive their sin—and if not, please blot me out from Your book which You have written!” [SUP]33 [/SUP]The Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book. [SUP]34 [/SUP]But go now, lead the people where I told you. Behold, My angel shall go before you; nevertheless in the day when I [SUP][a][/SUP]punish, I will [SUP][b][/SUP]punish them for their sin.”



Often times this "angel" is actually YHWH Himself.

1 Samuel 9:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]“About this time tomorrow I will send you a man from the land of Benjamin, and you shall anoint him to be prince over My people Israel; and he will deliver My people from the hand of the Philistines. For I have regarded My people, because their cry has come to Me.”

1 Samuel 13:13-14 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Samuel said to Saul, “You have acted foolishly; you have not kept the commandment of the LORD your God, which He commanded you, for now the LORD would have established your kingdom [SUP][a][/SUP]over Israel forever. [SUP]14 [/SUP]But now your kingdom shall not endure. The LORD has sought out for Himself a man after His own heart, and the LORD has appointed him as ruler over His people, because you have not kept what the Lord commanded you.”


[h=1]2 Samuel 5:1-2 (NASB)[/h]5 Then all the tribes of Israel came to David at Hebron and [SUP][a][/SUP]said, “Behold, we are your bone and your flesh. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Previously, when Saul was king over us, you were the one who led Israel out and in. And the LORD said to you, ‘You will shepherd My people Israel, and you will be a ruler over Israel.’”

The passages from 1 and 2 Samuel are about Isreal having a King. God wanted to be their only King, but the people insisted that they wanted another king, so God granted it to them, although He was not happy about it. But, ultimately, God does become their King again -- God is King in Jesus Christ. The kingship of Isreal is ultimately fulfilled in Him.

I'll have to finish the rest later.

 

[NWL]

It would help if you gave the Scripture reference of this so that I can verify what Scripture you are referring to.

I did! Re-read what I wrote, I gave examples along with supporting scripture for you to look up, you even used one of them in your last reply to me. I'll quote the verse below along with an extra one in Daniel;

(Ezekiel 36:36) "...And the nations that will be left remaining round about YOU will have to know that I myself, Jehovah, have built the things torn down, I have planted what has been laid desolate. I myself, Jehovah, have spoken and I have done [it]..." (Did Jehovah actually re-build things torn down, brick by brick, or did Jehovah re-build through Israel?)

(Isaiah 63:3) “...The wine trough I have trodden by myself, while there was no man with me from the peoples. And I kept treading them in my anger, and I kept trampling them down in my rage. And their spurting blood kept spattering upon my garments, and all my clothing I have polluted..."

(Daniel 4:30) "...The king was answering and saying: “Is not this Babylon the Great, that I myself have built for the royal house with the strength of my might and for the dignity of my majesty?...” Did King Nebuchadnezzar literally build babalyon by himself? No! Rather he was expressing he was it's Originator.

The NASB translates it this way:

[SUP]12 [/SUP]“The LORD alone guided him,
And there was no foreign god with him.

It depends on perspective -- ultimately, yes, Jehovah was the only one guiding them where they should go. But point taken that He did use humans in the process....but it was still the pillar of fire and the cloud. Now the NT actually says that this was Jesus, as was quoted earlier in this thread.

Thank you for agreeing with me, but I still sense that your still trying to avoid the obvious and hanging onto the insignificant. And no, its not a matter of perspective, the Bible says "Moses led Israel", therefore Moses led Israel, scripture also states "Jehovah alone led Israel", therefore Jehovah alone led Israel, there's no contradiction but only an understanding that Jehovah alone, led Israel through Moses. Likewise Jesus created, and Jehovah alone created, again there's no contradiction but and understanding that the Father alone created through Jesus, scripture then backs this up for us, Hebrews 1:1,2.

I can see that your still going to comment futher on my last post, so please do not forget to answer my question, here it is again just shortened

1.) Based on your reasoning that Jesus created all things, and also YHWH alone created all things, that it implies Jesus must be YHWH, would you agree that since Moses led Israel, and YHWH alone led Israel, that this also implies Moses must be YHWH.

Please note here that the manuscripts that have "Jesus" in there at Jude 1:5 are

early manuscripts, not late ones, as is often the case when there is a difference in manuscripts. Now this doesn't prove that the text should say Jesus there, but it does offer evidence that some early Christians believed that it did say that.

I have no problem with Jesus being the Angel that led Israel through Egypt (Exodus 23:20), I too believe he did. But the fact that Jesus might of doesn't prove he's YHWH anymore than it proves Moses is YHWH.

Now I know that you might claim that this is just another instance of the Father using Jesus.....but you're having to say that a lot, and it is very clear that the Father and Jesus are both linked to the identity of YHWH

Repetition of Biblical fact isn't proof that what I'm saying is false. Bible principles repeats itself throughout the OT and NT. Also, no doubt the Father is linked to the identity to YHWH, but to say Jesus is, is another thing. If it's so "very clear", then why are you finding it so difficult to prove it to me, it's not like I'm fighting scripture with scripture, denying the verses you produce, or claiming ignorance, rather I'm explaining the true content behind the verse you give and also showing how some of your claims and reasoning is incorrect by using scripture as proof! Your the one basing your reasoning on face value so there's no doubt your reasoning is going to be off.

Often times this "angel" is actually YHWH Himself.

There is no Angel that is YHWH, again this is down to writing style and persons being representatives. Based on the two passages of the same account below, who entreated Jesus, the centurion or the older men? (please read both passages before answering)

(Matthew 8:5-7) "...When he [Jesus] entered into Ca·per′na·um, an army officer came to him, entreating him  and saying: “Sir, my manservant is laid up in the house with paralysis, being terribly tormented.” 7 He [Jesus] said to him: “When I get there I will cure him." In reply the army officer said..."

(Luke 7:3, 4,6) "...When he [the army officer] heard about Jesus, he sent forth older men of the Jews to him to ask him to come and bring his slave safely through. 4 Then those that came up to Jesus began to entreat him earnestly, saying: “He is worthy of your conferring this upon him...So Jesus started off with them..."

Also, please do not forget to answer my two original questions I asked previously. Here they are again;

2.) To whose Glory are people bowing to, Jesus or the Fathers? (Based on Philippians 2:11)
3.) By praying through Jesus to the Father whom are we praying to, Jesus or the Father?

Look forward to the rest of your post.

 

[GreenNnice]

nwlbrit, brother, can you please not do your posts in so small a font size?

It's hard to read.

Blessings

 

[NWL]

nwlbrit, brother, can you please not do your posts in so small a font size?

It's hard to read.

Blessings

Sorry friend, with larger post I usually lower the font as not to fill up the board. I will post in larger font for you though. If it helps you can hold down the "Ctrl" button on you keyboard and scroll with the "mouse wheel" to increase the size of the font automatically on your browser. The "Ctrl" button on the keyboard is located at the lower left hand corner of keyboard and underneath the "Enter" button. Hope this helps

 

[johnluke]

Now I know that you might claim that this is just another instance of the Father using Jesus.....but you're having to say that a lot, and it is very clear that the Father and Jesus are both linked to the identity of YHWH.

In fact it is very unclear that the Father and Jesus are linked to the name of Yahweh. I have just read every verse in Genesis comparing the hebrew interlinear to english KJV and the english translators translated the hebrew name Elohim (plural) as "God" every time except a few times they translated the hebrew word "El" (singular) as "God". The english translators also translated the hebrew name of Yahweh as "LORD".

It is fairly clear to me that God the Father is "God" and His Son Jesus is "LORD". Hence God the Father is associated with "Elohim" and Jesus is associated with "Yahweh". I believe there are times later on, I have not studied it out, that the name Jehovah is used instead of Yahweh, I could be wrong, but I think I am right. So Yahweh and Jehovah to me are the same God, and that God is Jesus of the New Testament only.

God the Father is a separate person, with another identifying name.

 

[Arwen4CJ]

And again at Ezek 36:33, 36 Jehovah says “I myself” will build the cities of Israel after the exile. Did He personally rebuild them or did His people do the work at His direction?

Ezekial 36:33-36 (NASB)
[SUP]33 [/SUP]‘Thus says the Lord God, “On the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will cause the cities to be inhabited, and the waste places will be rebuilt. [SUP]34 [/SUP]The desolate land will be cultivated instead of being a desolation in the sight of everyone who passes by. [SUP]35 [/SUP]They will say, ‘This desolate land has become like the garden of Eden; and the waste, desolate and ruined cities are fortified and inhabited.’ [SUP]36 [/SUP]Then the nations that are left round about you will know that I, the Lord, have rebuilt the ruined places and planted that which was desolate; I, the Lord, have spoken and will do it.”

It is obvious here from the context that God rebuilt it because He allowed it to be rebuilt. He enabled them to rebuild it. I have to go again, so I will still have to finish this later.



I also don't have time to make the YHWH in the verse in all caps....

 

[NWL]

In fact it is very unclear that the Father and Jesus are linked to the name of Yahweh. I have just read every verse in Genesis comparing the hebrew interlinear to english KJV and the english translators translated the hebrew name Elohim (plural) as "God" every time except a few times they translated the hebrew word "El" (singular) as "God". The english translators also translated the hebrew name of Yahweh as "LORD".

It is fairly clear to me that God the Father is "God" and His Son Jesus is "LORD". Hence God the Father is associated with "Elohim" and Jesus is associated with "Yahweh". I believe there are times later on, I have not studied it out, that the name Jehovah is used instead of Yahweh, I could be wrong, but I think I am right. So Yahweh and Jehovah to me are the same God, and that God is Jesus of the New Testament only.

God the Father is a separate person, with another identifying name.

I'm interested johnluke, you say you read the whole book of Genesis, from what verse did you understand it to be talking about Jesus, or in other words where does it say Jesus was the LORD being spoken of? To me it seems you were reading Genesis with the assumed Jesus was the LORD being spoken of, I've never seen a reference that Jesus was the LORD in Genesis at all.

I understand that you haven't finished your studies on it and are unsure, so please, take you time if you do reply back friend.

 

[NWL]

Ezekial 36:33-36 (NASB)

[SUP]33 [/SUP]‘Thus says the Lord God, “On the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will cause the cities to be inhabited, and the waste places will be rebuilt. [SUP]34 [/SUP]The desolate land will be cultivated instead of being a desolation in the sight of everyone who passes by. [SUP]35 [/SUP]They will say, ‘This desolate land has become like the garden of Eden; and the waste, desolate and ruined cities are fortified and inhabited.’ [SUP]36 [/SUP]Then the nations that are left round about you will know that I, the Lord, have rebuilt the ruined places and planted that which was desolate; I, the Lord, have spoken and will do it.”

It is obvious here from the context that God rebuilt it because He allowed it to be rebuilt. He enabled them to rebuild it. I have to go again, so I will still have to finish this later.

I also don't have time to make the YHWH in the verse in all caps....

No worries Arwen4CJ, I'd rather you take your time and reply to me in length and when you have more time on your hands, then for you to reply back feeling rushed.

Most definitely! it is easy to see from the context that it was by means of Jehovah that the city was re-built, even though the verse clearly says Jehovah himself did it. Just because a scripture says Jehovah himself/alone did something doesn't mean that he actually does it. Likewise scripture states the very same thing with Jesus as regards Jehovah the Father. The Father is the Originator, the source of all life, all living things today gain life from the Father through Jesus Christ, this same principle can be in the manner of creation -Father through the son- through Prayer (to whom we pray) -Father through the Son- and also life -Father through the Son- , an inescapable truth.

(John 6:57) "...Just as the living Father sent me forth and I [Jesus] live because of the Father, he also that feeds on me, even that one will live because of me..."

(John 5:26) "...For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself..."

Life/Creation has come from the Father through his Son, how much longer is it until you understand this my friend.

(1 Corinthians 8:6) "...one God the Father, out of whom all things are... one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are..." Life out of the Father -> Through Jesus -> To us

 

[lookuptoseeJesus]

Trinity is not in the bible
Read your bible and God will reveal his love to you.
Ignore trinity and and other doctrines of men.

 

[johnluke]

Don't you see where you are finding God is God is God in your own logical explanation? That God is Jesus, that both are on the throne, but they are one God, they are both on different thrones, this is true, but, they are one God. Jesus REALLY existed, He really is a man who is God who is with the Father now, sitting 'at His right hand.' Jesus showed us the way to Him on Earth, the way to The Way, who is Himself

There is ONLY one God, it is God, but, Jesus, by your own verse there, IS God.

We are ONLY to worship one God, not two, not three. One.

they are both on different thrones, this is true, but, they are one God.

If you are willing to believe that God the Father and His Son Jesus can sit side by side on 2 different thrones, I believe that too.
You should feel comfortable with my analogy of Matthew 3:16-17 which is: this scripture shows that God the Father, and His Son Jesus, and the Holy Ghost can be in 3 different places at the same time, but can still be one God. I believe this also.


So what are our differences?

 

[Arwen4CJ]

If i applied your same flawed reasoning that since Jehovah alone created the world to the above then, the people who actually punished Edom are also YHWH, so to are Moses and the Angel that led Isreal through the wilderness, as well as the builders of the cities of Israel since Jehovah alone was the one who also did those things just mentioned. The fact that your reasoning is flawed is basic to see!

What you're doing is saying that all the times that Jehovah says "alone" in any verse that He means the same thing, regardless of context. That's not what my argument here is. I was talking specifically about the act of creating, which never can be applied to anyone other than YHWH. He created all that there is. He is eternal.

Now, maybe you are saying that YHWH (whom you think is just the Father), and a separate being, the pre-incarnate Jesus, are eternal. Is that what you believe?

Let's look at some of the creating verses in context....
Genesis 1:1-27 (NASB)
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. [SUP]2 [/SUP]The earth was [SUP][a][/SUP]formless and void, and darkness was over the [SUP][b][/SUP]surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was [SUP][c][/SUP]moving over the [SUP][d][/SUP]surface of the waters. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. [SUP]4 [/SUP]God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. [SUP]5 [/SUP]God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Then God said, “Let there be [SUP][e][/SUP]an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” [SUP]7 [/SUP]God made the [SUP][f][/SUP]expanse, and separated the waters which were below the [SUP][g][/SUP]expanse from the waters which were above the [SUP][h][/SUP]expanse; and it was so. [SUP]8 [/SUP]God called the [SUP][i][/SUP]expanse heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Then God said, “Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so. [SUP]10 [/SUP]God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that it was good. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Then God said, “Let the earth sprout [SUP][j][/SUP]vegetation, [SUP][k][/SUP]plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after [SUP][l][/SUP]their kind [SUP][m][/SUP]with seed in them”; and it was so. [SUP]12 [/SUP]The earth brought forth [SUP][n][/SUP]vegetation, [SUP][o][/SUP]plants yielding seed after [SUP][p][/SUP]their kind, and trees bearing fruit [SUP][q][/SUP]with seed in them, after [SUP][r][/SUP]their kind; and God saw that it was good. [SUP]13 [/SUP]There was evening and there was morning, a third day.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]Then God said, “Let there be [SUP][s][/SUP]lights in the [SUP][t][/SUP]expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years; [SUP]15 [/SUP]and let them be for [SUP][u][/SUP]lights in the [SUP][v][/SUP]expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. [SUP]16[/SUP]God made the two [SUP][w][/SUP]great lights, the greater [SUP][x][/SUP]light [SUP][y][/SUP]to govern the day, and the lesser [SUP][z][/SUP]light [SUP][aa][/SUP]to govern the night; He made the stars also. [SUP]17 [/SUP]God placed them in the [SUP][ab][/SUP]expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, [SUP]18 [/SUP]and [SUP][ac][/SUP]to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good. [SUP]19 [/SUP]There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

[SUP]20[/SUP]Then God said, “Let the waters [SUP][ad][/SUP]teem with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth [SUP][ae][/SUP]in the open [SUP][af][/SUP]expanse of the heavens.” [SUP]21 [/SUP]God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good. [SUP]22 [/SUP]God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.” [SUP]23 [/SUP]There was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures after [SUP][ag][/SUP]their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after [SUP][ah][/SUP]their kind”; and it was so. [SUP]25 [/SUP]God made the beasts of the earth after [SUP][ai][/SUP]their kind, and the cattle after [SUP][aj][/SUP]their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good.

[SUP]26 [/SUP]Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the [SUP][ak][/SUP]sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” [SUP]27[/SUP]God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

Genesis 2:1-9 (NASB)
2 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. [SUP]2 [/SUP]By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created [SUP][a][/SUP]and made.

[SUP]4 [/SUP][SUP][b][/SUP]This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Now no shrub of the field was yet in the earth, and no plant of the field had yet sprouted, for the LORD God had not sent rain upon the earth, and there was no man to [SUP][c][/SUP]cultivate the ground. [SUP]6 [/SUP]But a [SUP][d][/SUP]mist used to rise from the earth and water the whole [SUP][e][/SUP]surface of the ground. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living [SUP][f][/SUP]being. [SUP]8 [/SUP]The LORD God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He had formed. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Out of the ground the LORD God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

There was was no one else who created accept for the one and only God. Yes, He does talk within Himself, but it is obvious that He is talking within Himself.....because we are created in God's image. We aren't created in God's image and someone else's image. It is God who created us.

John 1:1-3 (NASB)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [SUP]2 [/SUP][SUP][a][/SUP]He was in the beginning with God. [SUP]3 [/SUP]All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Colossians 1:15-20 (NASB)

[SUP]15 [/SUP][SUP][w][/SUP]He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. [SUP]16[/SUP]For [SUP][x][/SUP]by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. [SUP]17 [/SUP]He [SUP][y][/SUP]is before all things, and in Him all things [SUP][z][/SUP]hold together. [SUP]18 [/SUP]He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For [SUP][aa][/SUP]it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the [SUP][ab][/SUP]fullness to dwell in Him, [SUP]20 [/SUP]and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in [SUP][ac][/SUP]heaven.


Again, there is no one else there but God in the creation accounts of Genesis. He did all the creating. So if Jesus is the Word, and is God, then He also has to be YHWH.

 

[Arwen4CJ]

So I have another simple question for you, 1.) Based on your reasoning that Jehovah alone created the world implying that Jesus too is YHWH (by your reasoning, since he too created the world) then do you admit that Moses and an Angel is YHWH, Israelite builders are YHWH, as well as the actual people who punished Israel are YHWH since scripture states YHWH alone in fact did those things?

Moses is not YHWH -- that is obvious. The "angel" can sometimes be YHWH, but it all depends on the context. That is why context is key. My argument that Jehovah alone created the world only works because we can actually go back to the Scripture and see that there was no one else who did the creating, and we can also see the context in which He claimed to be the only creator. Therefore, when He says that He alone did the creating, we can take it at face value.

It doesn't work to take a phrase "I alone" and then claim that all the veress in which God says this mean the same thing, completely ignoring the context and other factors.

So, no, the Isrelites are not YHWH. We know this from the context in which it was spoken, and from our understanding of other verses.

(By you answer it will be clear for all to see whether or not Jesus is YHWH based on your "creation account reasoning" between God and Jesus)

You cannot disprove that Jesus is YHWH by comparing passages in which YHWH declares that He alone did something, and then claim that it always has one meaning. Jesus being YHWH rests on numerous Scriptures, and the fact that there is only one God.

If you deny that Jesus is YHWH, just as the Father is YHWH you are left with only the conclusion below:
Jesus must either be a second God, or He must be a demi-god. This conclusion does not fit with YHWH's delcaration that He is the one and only God.

This again is false reasoning, your missing a basic fact whilst reading Hebrews 1, that the God in Heb 1:1,2 cannot be the Truine God.

Since God is triune, then all of the following are true:
1.) The entire triune God is YHWH, and may be referred to correctly as "God" in Scripture
2.) That the Father is YHWH, and He may be reffered to correctly as "God"
3.) That Jesus is YHWH, and He may be referred to correctly as "God"
4.) That the Holy Spirit is YHWH, and He may be reffered to correctly as "God."

You're right that in just Hebrews 1:1-2, it is specifically referring to the Person of the Father. I was kind of in a hurry, and I gave too broad an answer there. But having said that, this does not deny Jesus' deity.

From a Trinitrians point of view YHWH/God is The Father/Son/HS, if therefore one of those person is talked of apart from Godbut in regards to God then that God must be the person(s) who isn't being spoken of within the Trinity.

You are correct.

For example we have the scripture "he [Jesus] sat down at the right hand of God" (Mark 16:19) Now that God in this scripture based on context clearly isn't the Truine God, the Fatther/Son/HS other wise Jesus would be sitting at the right hand of himself, therefore we conclude that the God mentioned in mark 16:19 is either in regard to either/both the Father or/and Holy Spirit (actual fact the Father).

Agreed.

And this is my point, Jesus in Hebrews 1:1,2 is being spoken of apart from the God being mentioned, just like Mark 16:19, if you want to claim that the God being spoken of in Heb 1:1,2 then trinitrians have all sorts of problems, such as; It would imply that Jesus appointed himself (see the below scripture) and that Jesus created through himself (see the below scripture). However from scripture we know that it was the Father who appointed Jesus (John 17:2), and the Father that created through Jesus (1 Corin 8:6), therefore it is clear to see that the God in Hebrews 1:1,2 is in fact God the Father, the same thing can be more so in the book of Hebrews.

I agree with you in all but the last part of your last sentence here.

(Hebrews 1:1, 2 Arwen4CJ Rendering) "...God [the Father/Son/HS], who long ago spoke on many occasions and in many ways to our forefathers by means of the prophets, has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he [the F/S/HS] appointed [him] heir of all things, and through whom he [the F/S/HS] made the systems of things [through him]..." (all the additions are mine so people can get a better understand of the identity of "God" in the verse -with the "God" mentioned being the truine God as assumed by Arwen4CJ- in relation to the apparent context)

I was answering based on all of Hebrews one.....not specifically verses 1-2, and that was my mistake. I admit it.

Exactly, now we're getting somewhere. Just because I create something doesn't necessarily imply I am it's designer originator, likewise we have Jesus (who's never called by the title Creator) who God (Heb 1:1,2) has created all things through, now just because Jesus was used to create doesn't imply he's the creator, but rather the instrument God the Father used to create all things through, it's so simple.

But who is to say that both the Father and Son are not YHWH? It seems to me that God is the only one who participated in the creation of the world in any way whatsover. God spoke, and everything came into being. Jesus is that Word through which all things were created. God made humans in His own image....which means that we were created in only the image of God, not the image of God and another.

There are no verses in Genesis that say that God used someone who wasn't Him to do the actual creating.

And, again, having Jesus as a demi-god doesn't fit with what God says about Himself being the one and only God.

You've been quoting the references of Hebrews all this time but yet you haven't described of this particular verse. Hebrews 1:8-12 is quoted from psalms 45:6-7 which is in reference to a then Israelite King (possibly King Solomon), which is prophetically linked to the Messiah, it reads;

(Psalms 45:6-7 NIV) "...Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom. You love righteousness and hate wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy..."

Please remember the verse is speaking about an Israelite King. The trinitarian New American Standard Bible (NASB) the one you've used to quote Hebrews , Reference Edition, explains in a footnote for Psalms 45:1, “Probably refers to Solomon as a type of Christ.” So, according to this trinitarian Bible, the words of Psalms 45:6, although figuratively referring to Jesus, were literally applied to an ancient Israelite king (?King Solomon?)

So if Ps. 45:6 is properly translated, “your throne, O God ...” then that ancient Israelite King (Solomon?) was also literally called “O God” (or “O god”?) Other footnotes say the following; “The Hebrew king was called ... ‘God,’ not in the polytheistic sense common among the ancient pagans, but as meaning ‘godlike’ or ‘taking the place of God’.” (New American Bible, St. Joseph Edition, 1970).Furthermore the NAB goes on to explain that others Bible translations have translated this verse as, “Your throne is the throne of God” and refers us to 1 Chron. 29:23 “where Solomon’s throne is referred to as the throne of the YHWH.” Thus many translations have rendered Heb 1:8 as such:

(Dr. James Moffatt - One of the Best Trinitrain biblical scholars) “...God is thy throne for ever and ever...”

(An American Translation [SG]) “...God is your throne....”

(And The Bible in Living English [Byington]): “...God is your throne....”

"God is your throne" doesn't contradict the proclamation to the king in Psalms. Also the the very fact that you believe verse 9 in Hebrews 1, which reads "Therefore God" is in reference to Jesus shows you lack understand, as how can Jesus be that God and yet have a God above him. The verse is saying "Therefore God [the Father], who is [Your God]" which in short can read "Therefore God, Your God".

Point taken; I will not use Hebrews 1:8-12 as an argument for Jesus' deity, since the translation of it is disputed by people...however, I still think it suggests Jesus' deity. Yes, it was taking from that Psalm, and it was originally applied to Solomon....but the Holy Spirit did inspire the author of Hebrews to apply it to Jesus, and it does seem to ultimately imply His deity, in the prophetic sense.

But, as you see this as a disputed verse here, we'll leave it alone.

This is because Jesus copies the Father, therefore he is like his Father image, he is the image of God, don't you find it strange that the author(s) of Hebrews didn't simply state that the OT YHWH was YHWH, don't you find it weird that your texts which you believe to prove your points are either disputed verse (Heb 1:8) or are based on bad reasoning (deut 32:12, Heb 1:1,2);

My belief that Jesus is YHWH does not only rest on Hebrews chapter 1. Jesus can only be the image of God, in the true sense, if He also is YHWH. Otherwise, Jesus would just be another human.

(John 5:19) "...The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner..."

If a Dad enters a race and his son also enters the race and both become world famous runners, both get the same title "Great runners" should we conclude they share any type of identity, futhermore if that dad become and a "Great Scientist", "Great husband", "Great Athlete" and his Son copied him "in like manner" would we again assume they must share the same identity, or is it rather the Son is imitating the Father so much so that they simply have the same titles, not identity.

No, we should not conclude that. But the above scenario does not work with the Father and Jesus.....because YHWH is the one and only God. Jesus couldn't simply copy the Father's deity and become a second God. Since the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one God, they act together in all that they do. The Son does imitate the Father, but that does not negate the Son's deity and identity as YHWH.

With regard to what you wrote about all things bending their knees to Jesus and people praying to God through Jesus I simply ask you;

2.) To whose Glory are people bowing to, Jesus of the Fathers?

-
- the text says to the Father's glory...but it couldn't be to the Father's glory unless Jesus was also YHWH.
Why? Because YHWH says that every knee would bow to Him, and every tongue would swear allegience to Him.....
But yet in Philippians they are bowing to Jesus, and swearing by Jesus......so the Father could not be glorified in this unless both Jesus and the Father were YHWH.

3.) By praying through Jesus to the Father whom are we praying to Jesus or the Father?

We would be praying to the Father.

But we also sometimes pray to Jesus...and we do worship Jesus along with the Father. Jesus receives worship in the Bible.

 

[Arwen4CJ]

I did! Re-read what I wrote, I gave examples along with supporting scripture for you to look up, you even used one of them in your last reply to me.

I know you gave some references -- I meant the first thing that you mentioned....you didn't give a Scriptural reference for that one. But it doesn't matter right now.

I'll quote the verse below along with an extra one in Daniel;

(Ezekiel 36:36) "...And the nations that will be left remaining round about YOU will have to know that I myself, Jehovah, have built the things torn down, I have planted what has been laid desolate. I myself, Jehovah, have spoken and I have done [it]..." (Did Jehovah actually re-build things torn down, brick by brick, or did Jehovah re-build through Israel?)

I just looked at this passage again, in its larger context...

Ezekiel 36:28-38 (NASB)
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Then you shall live in the land that I gave to your ancestors; and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. [SUP]29 [/SUP]I will save you from all your uncleannesses, and I will summon the grain and make it abundant and lay no famine upon you. [SUP]30 [/SUP]I will make the fruit of the tree and the produce of the field abundant, so that you may never again suffer the disgrace of famine among the nations. [SUP]31 [/SUP]Then you shall remember your evil ways, and your dealings that were not good; and you shall loathe yourselves for your iniquities and your abominable deeds. [SUP]32 [/SUP]It is not for your sake that I will act, says the Lord GOD; let that be known to you. Be ashamed and dismayed for your ways, O house of Israel. [SUP]33 [/SUP]Thus says the Lord GOD: On the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will cause the towns to be inhabited, and the waste places shall be rebuilt. [SUP]34 [/SUP]The land that was desolate shall be tilled, instead of being the desolation that it was in the sight of all who passed by. [SUP]35 [/SUP]And they will say, “This land that was desolate has become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined towns are now inhabited and fortified.” [SUP]36 [/SUP]Then the nations that are left all around you shall know that I, the LORD, have rebuilt the ruined places, and replanted that which was desolate; I, the LORD, have spoken, and I will do it.

[SUP]37 [/SUP]Thus says the Lord GOD: I will also let the house of Israel ask me to do this for them: to increase their population like a flock. [SUP]38 [/SUP]Like the flock for sacrifices,[SUP][a][/SUP] like the flock at Jerusalem during her appointed festivals, so shall the ruined towns be filled with flocks of people. Then they shall know that I am the LORD.


Again, it seems to me that YHWH Himself is the One who allows it to be rebuilt, and makes it possible through His own actions. It also seems that He will equip the people to accomplish this through His actions. I know that your point was that in the translation you use, it says "I alone." But it doesn't say this in all translations. And, again, we have to look at the larger context.

(Isaiah 63:3) “...The wine trough I have trodden by myself, while there was no man with me from the peoples. And I kept treading them in my anger, and I kept trampling them down in my rage. And their spurting blood kept spattering upon my garments, and all my clothing I have polluted..."

Isaiah 63:1-6 (NASB)
63 “Who is this that comes from Edom,
from Bozrah in garments stained crimson?
Who is this so splendidly robed,
marching in his great might?”

“It is I, announcing vindication,
mighty to save.”

[SUP]2 [/SUP]“Why are your robes red,
and your garments like theirs who tread the wine press?”

[SUP]3 [/SUP]“I have trodden the wine press alone,
and from the peoples no one was with me;
I trod them in my anger
and trampled them in my wrath;
their juice spattered on my garments,
and stained all my robes.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For the day of vengeance was in my heart,
and the year for my redeeming work had come.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]I looked, but there was no helper;
I stared, but there was no one to sustain me;
so my own arm brought me victory,
and my wrath sustained me.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]I trampled down peoples in my anger,
I crushed them in my wrath,
and I poured out their lifeblood on the earth.”



I think that this verse actually finds ultimate fulfillment in the Second Coming of Jesus....I think it is prophetic. As is the case with all prophecy, there is an immediate fulfillment and a future one. The future one is the ultimate fulfillment, though.....

Revelation 19:11-16 (NASB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Then I saw heaven opened, and there was a white horse! Its rider is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. [SUP]12 [/SUP]His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems; and he has a name inscribed that no one knows but himself. [SUP]13 [/SUP]He is clothed in a robe dipped in[SUP][h][/SUP] blood, and his name is called The Word of God. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And the armies of heaven, wearing fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. [SUP]15 [/SUP]From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule[SUP][i][/SUP] them with a rod of iron; he will tread the wine press of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. [SUP]16 [/SUP]On his robe and on his thigh he has a name inscribed, “King of kings and Lord of lords.”

The reason that I think it is prophetically about Jesus is because of Isaiah 62:10-12, which comes just before chapter 63:

Isaiah 62:10-12 (NASB)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Go through, go through the gates,
prepare the way for the people;
build up, build up the highway,
clear it of stones,
lift up an ensign over the peoples.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]The LORD has proclaimed
to the end of the earth:
Say to daughter Zion,
“See, your salvation comes;
his reward is with him,
and his recompense before him.”
[SUP]12 [/SUP]They shall be called, “The Holy People,
The Redeemed of the LORD”;
and you shall be called, “Sought Out,
A City Not Forsaken.”



That is so similar to Revelation 22....
Revelation 22:12-13 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]“See, I am coming soon; my reward is with me, to repay according to everyone’s work. [SUP]13 [/SUP]I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

So, the ultimate fulfillment -- yes, it is YHWH who treads the wine press, specifically Jesus.

(Daniel 4:30) "...The king was answering and saying: “Is not this Babylon the Great, that I myself have built for the royal house with the strength of my might and for the dignity of my majesty?...” Did King Nebuchadnezzar literally build babalyon by himself? No! Rather he was expressing he was it's Originator.

Daniel 4:28-30 (NASB)
[SUP]28 [/SUP]All this came upon King Nebuchadnezzar. [SUP]29 [/SUP]At the end of twelve months he was walking on the roof of the royal palace of Babylon, [SUP]30 [/SUP]and the king said, “Is this not magnificent Babylon, which I have built as a royal capital by my mighty power and for my glorious majesty?”

No, he did not...but he was boasting as if he did. He was claiming that he was building it through his influence and power as king.

Thank you for agreeing with me, but I still sense that your still trying to avoid the obvious and hanging onto the insignificant. And no, its not a matter of perspective, the Bible says "Moses led Israel", therefore Moses led Israel, scripture also states "Jehovah alone led Israel", therefore Jehovah alone led Israel, there's no contradiction but only an understanding that Jehovah alone, led Israel through Moses. Likewise Jesus created, and Jehovah alone created, again there's no contradiction but and understanding that the Father alone created through Jesus, scripture then backs this up for us, Hebrews 1:1,2.

I have no problem with the Father accomplishing His will through Jesus, as both the Father and Jesus are YHWH. What I do have an issue with is using this argument to deny Jesus' deity.

I have no problem with Jesus being the Angel that led Israel through Egypt (Exodus 23:20), I too believe he did. But the fact that Jesus might of doesn't prove he's YHWH anymore than it proves Moses is YHWH.

But it was YHWH who took the form of the pillar of fire or the cloud....and if that was Jesus, then in fact show that Jesus is YHWH.

 

[Arwen4CJ]

Repetition of Biblical fact isn't proof that what I'm saying is false. Bible principles repeats itself throughout the OT and NT. Also, no doubt the Father is linked to the identity to YHWH, but to say Jesus is, is another thing.

There is only one God, and that is YHWH. The Bible identifies Jesus as God, therefore it is identifying Jesus as YHWH.

Isaiah 44:5-7 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]This one will say, “I am the LORD'S,”
another will be called by the name of Jacob,
yet another will write on the hand, “The LORD'S,”
and adopt the name of Israel.


[SUP]6 [/SUP]Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel,
and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
I am the first and I am the last;
besides me there is no god.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Who is like me? Let them proclaim it,
let them declare and set it forth before me.
Who has announced from of old the things to come?[SUP][a][/SUP]
Let them tell us[SUP][b][/SUP] what is yet to be.

Isaiah 48:11-13 (NASB)

[SUP]11 [/SUP]For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it,
for why should my name[SUP][a][/SUP] be profaned?
My glory I will not give to another.


[SUP]12 [/SUP]Listen to me, O Jacob,
and Israel, whom I called:
I am He; I am the first,
and I am the last.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]My hand laid the foundation of the earth,
and my right hand spread out the heavens;
when I summon them,
they stand at attention.

Revelation 1:8 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.

Revelation 21:6-7 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Then he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give water as a gift from the spring of the water of life. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Those who conquer will inherit these things, and I will be their God and they will be my children.

Revelation 22:12-13 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]“See, I am coming soon; my reward is with me, to repay according to everyone’s work. [SUP]13 [/SUP]I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.

Revelation 1:16-18 (NASB)

[SUP]16 [/SUP]In his right hand he held seven stars, and from his mouth came a sharp, two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining with full force.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he placed his right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, [SUP]18 [/SUP]and the living one. I was dead, and see, I am alive forever and ever; and I have the keys of Death and of Hades.

Jesus is linked to the identity of YHWH.

If it's so "very clear", then why are you finding it so difficult to prove it to me, it's not like I'm fighting scripture with scripture, denying the verses you produce, or claiming ignorance, rather I'm explaining the true content behind the verse you give and also showing how some of your claims and reasoning is incorrect by using scripture as proof! Your the one basing your reasoning on face value so there's no doubt your reasoning is going to be off.

I present evidence and you explain it away because of how you interpret things....so, I cannot prove to you what I claim. All I can do is present you with evidence. It is up to you whether or not you accept it. I can't make the decision for you.

There is no Angel that is YHWH, again this is down to writing style and persons being representatives. Based on the two passages of the same account below, who entreated Jesus, the centurion or the older men? (please read both passages before answering)

(Matthew 8:5-7) "...When he [Jesus] entered into Ca·per′na·um, an army officer came to him, entreating him  and saying: “Sir, my manservant is laid up in the house with paralysis, being terribly tormented.” 7 He [Jesus] said to him: “When I get there I will cure him." In reply the army officer said..."

(Luke 7:3, 4,6) "...When he [the army officer] heard about Jesus, he sent forth older men of the Jews to him to ask him to come and bring his slave safely through. 4 Then those that came up to Jesus began to entreat him earnestly, saying: “He is worthy of your conferring this upon him...So Jesus started off with them..."

Matthew 8:5-13 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]When he entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, appealing to him [SUP]6 [/SUP]and saying, “Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, in terrible distress.” [SUP]7 [/SUP]And he said to him, “I will come and cure him.” [SUP]8 [/SUP]The centurion answered, “Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof; but only speak the word, and my servant will be healed. [SUP]9 [/SUP]For I also am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to one, ‘Go,’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes, and to my slave, ‘Do this,’ and the slave does it.” [SUP]10 [/SUP]When Jesus heard him, he was amazed and said to those who followed him, “Truly I tell you, in no one[SUP][d][/SUP] in Israel have I found such faith. [SUP]11 [/SUP]I tell you, many will come from east and west and will eat with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, [SUP]12 [/SUP]while the heirs of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” [SUP]13 [/SUP]And to the centurion Jesus said, “Go; let it be done for you according to your faith.” And the servant was healed in that hour.


Luke 7:1-10 (NASB)

7 After Jesus[SUP][a][/SUP] had finished all his sayings in the hearing of the people, he entered Capernaum. [SUP]2 [/SUP]A centurion there had a slave whom he valued highly, and who was ill and close to death. [SUP]3 [/SUP]When he heard about Jesus, he sent some Jewish elders to him, asking him to come and heal his slave. [SUP]4 [/SUP]When they came to Jesus, they appealed to him earnestly, saying, “He is worthy of having you do this for him, [SUP]5 [/SUP]for he loves our people, and it is he who built our synagogue for us.” [SUP]6 [/SUP]And Jesus went with them, but when he was not far from the house, the centurion sent friends to say to him, “Lord, do not trouble yourself, for I am not worthy to have you come under my roof; [SUP]7 [/SUP]therefore I did not presume to come to you. But only speak the word, and let my servant be healed. [SUP]8 [/SUP]For I also am a man set under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to one, ‘Go,’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes, and to my slave, ‘Do this,’ and the slave does it.” [SUP]9 [/SUP]When Jesus heard this he was amazed at him, and turning to the crowd that followed him, he said, “I tell you, not even in Israel have I found such faith.” [SUP]10 [/SUP]When those who had been sent returned to the house, they found the slave in good health.



That's why I put the word angel in quotes. I don't believe that it actually is an angel, but that the writer chose the word angel, but that it is really YHWH.

To answer your question, in Matthew, we only see the centurion himself talking to Jesus. In Luke, the man sent some Jewish elders to Jesus, and then he sent friends to speak to Jesus on his behalf.

 

[Arwen4CJ]

In fact it is very unclear that the Father and Jesus are linked to the name of Yahweh. I have just read every verse in Genesis comparing the hebrew interlinear to english KJV and the english translators translated the hebrew name Elohim (plural) as "God" every time except a few times they translated the hebrew word "El" (singular) as "God". The english translators also translated the hebrew name of Yahweh as "LORD".

It is fairly clear to me that God the Father is "God" and His Son Jesus is "LORD". Hence God the Father is associated with "Elohim" and Jesus is associated with "Yahweh". I believe there are times later on, I have not studied it out, that the name Jehovah is used instead of Yahweh, I could be wrong, but I think I am right. So Yahweh and Jehovah to me are the same God, and that God is Jesus of the New Testament only.

Once again from Isiah 45 (NASB):
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For thus says the LORD,
who created the heavens
(he is God!),
who formed the earth and made it
(he established it;
he did not create it a chaos,
he formed it to be inhabited!):
I am the LORD, and there is no other.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]I did not speak in secret,
in a land of darkness;
I did not say to the offspring of Jacob,
“Seek me in chaos.”
I the LORD speak the truth,
I declare what is right.



[SUP]20 [/SUP]Assemble yourselves and come together,
draw near, you survivors of the nations!
They have no knowledge—
those who carry about their wooden idols,
and keep on praying to a god
that cannot save.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Declare and present your case;
let them take counsel together!
Who told this long ago?
Who declared it of old?
Was it not I, the LORD?
There is no other god besides me,
a righteous God and a Savior;
there is no one besides me.


[SUP]22 [/SUP]Turn to me and be saved,
all the ends of the earth!
For I am God, and there is no other.

I'm pretty sure that in this passage, every time it says "God," it is "Elohim" in Hebrew. And in this passage it is YHWH who is speaking (hence the all caps for LORD). Rendering this passage as if Elohim and YHWH are two different Gods makes absolutely no sense. Furthermore, it would contradict what YHWH says about Himself -- that there is no other god but Him.

Just because the translators translated the word "Elohim" as God, and "YHWH" as LORD does not mean that there are two different Gods.
You think that the Father = Elohim and that Jesus = YHWH, making them two different gods.

Sorry, that doesn't work. There is only one God, and He is YHWH. The Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all Him.

God the Father is a separate person, with another identifying name.

The Father is a separate Person from Jesus, but they are both the same God, YHWH. They are not two different Gods.

 

[Arwen4CJ]

No worries Arwen4CJ, I'd rather you take your time and reply to me in length and when you have more time on your hands, then for you to reply back feeling rushed.

Thanks.

Most definitely! it is easy to see from the context that it was by means of Jehovah that the city was re-built, even though the verse clearly says Jehovah himself did it. Just because a scripture says Jehovah himself/alone did something doesn't mean that he actually does it. Likewise scripture states the very same thing with Jesus as regards Jehovah the Father. The Father is the Originator, the source of all life, all living things today gain life from the Father through Jesus Christ, this same principle can be in the manner of creation -Father through the son- through Prayer (to whom we pray) -Father through the Son- and also life -Father through the Son- , an inescapable truth.

But you are making the assumption that only the Father is YHWH.

I actually can agree with you that the Father created through the Son.....but only if they are both YHWH. The same is true for all other actions that God does, such as our redemption, salvation, etc.

You and I agree that the Father and Jesus are separate Persons. The thing that we disagree on is their unity -- of being of the same essence and being...that they are both YHWH.

You obviously revere Jesus, but you see Him as less than the Father, thus you do not understand Him to be YHWH. You do also acknowledge that Jesus had a pre-existence, and that He was there in Genesis 1. But, let me ask you this....if Jesus isn't YHWH, then who is He? What is He? It seems that you agree that Jesus was more than just a mere human...so what do you think about Him?

(John 6:57) "...Just as the living Father sent me forth and I [Jesus] live because of the Father, he also that feeds on me, even that one will live because of me..."

(John 5:26) "...For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself..."

Life/Creation has come from the Father through his Son, how much longer is it until you understand this my friend.

(1 Corinthians 8:6) "...one God the Father, out of whom all things are... one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are..." Life out of the Father -> Through Jesus -> To us

Again, I can agree with you here....but only if both the Father and Jesus are YHWH.

 

[Arwen4CJ]

Trinity is not in the bible
Read your bible and God will reveal his love to you.
Ignore trinity and and other doctrines of men.

It doesn't matter what name someone calls the term....it is the concept that is important.

 

[Arwen4CJ]

If you are willing to believe that God the Father and His Son Jesus can sit side by side on 2 different thrones, I believe that too.
You should feel comfortable with my analogy of Matthew 3:16-17 which is: this scripture shows that God the Father, and His Son Jesus, and the Holy Ghost can be in 3 different places at the same time, but can still be one God. I believe this also.


So what are our differences?

So you're saying that you now believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one God?

Do you agree that that one God is YHWH? If not, how do you now understand that the Persons are one God?

 

[johnluke]

I'm interested johnluke, you say you read the whole book of Genesis, from what verse did you understand it to be talking about Jesus, or in other words where does it say Jesus was the LORD being spoken of? To me it seems you were reading Genesis with the assumed Jesus was the LORD being spoken of, I've never seen a reference that Jesus was the LORD in Genesis at all.

I understand that you haven't finished your studies on it and are unsure, so please, take you time if you do reply back friend.

My study in Genesis was to see how the English translators translated the Hebrew names of Yahweh and Elohim into English.
They are translated as LORD and God. When I said "later on", I just meant other books, I have finished my study of Genesis.

I do not know of a scripture that says "Yahweh is Jesus".
But if you look at Jeremiah 50:29 it says, For she hath been proud against the LORD, against the Holy One of Israel.
The Hebrew name for LORD is Yahweh, and the Holy One of Israel is Jesus, so Yahweh must be Jesus.
See Acts 3:14 where Luke calls Jesus the Holy One.

Also see 1 Corinthians 10:1-9 where Paul declares that Jesus is the God of the Israelites coming out of Egypt with Moses. The God of the Israelites was Yahweh.

Yahweh of the Old Testament is Jesus of the New Testament. Same Person.

Are you just looking for the scripture that says Jesus is Yahweh so you can believe that or do you believe that and are just looking for a scripture to perhaps help someone else believe too?