Pre-Trib. Rapture Moment 19: A Rapture in Exodus 19:16-21?

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ChosenbyHim

Senior Member
Sep 19, 2011
3,343
114
63
#1
Pre-Trib. Rapture Moment 19: A Rapture in Exodus 19:16-21?

[video=youtube;sc7FQi022XU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc7FQi022XU&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/video]

Is there a type of a Rapture in Exodus 19 with Moses? Yes...and no.
 
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PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
#2
Pretty sure Moses and the Israelites remained on earth.
 
M

miktre

Guest
#3
Pre-Trib. Rapture Moment 19: A Rapture in Exodus 19:16-21?

[video=youtube;sc7FQi022XU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc7FQi022XU&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/video]

Is there a type of a Rapture in Exodus 19 with Moses? Yes...and no.
So the gentleman first reads 1 Corinthians 15:52 @ 2:08 of the video and teaches this means rapture.
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

But @ 2:53 of the video he reads 1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
He then argues that this merely says trump not trumpet so it's not the last trumpet spoken of in Revelation, what a crock.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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#4

1Co 15:52 &
1 Thessalonians 4:16 are not the same event. One is the first coming of Christ and the other is the second coming of Christ.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1) The trumpet shall sound - The last trump is the New Testament. Jesus' earthly ministry started the last trump.
2) The dead shall be raised incorruptible - Resurrection of the Old Testament saints, the first fruits.
3) We shall be changed - All alive put on the righteousness of Christ and everlasting life. Death was swallowed up in victory.
1st Corinthians is the first coming of Christ.


1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1) With the trump of God - It doesn't say at the sounding of the trumpet, it says with the trump of God... he was holding it in his hand.
Rev 10:2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,
2) The dead in Christ shall rise first - The saints that have died from Christ to when he returns.
3) Caught up - The birth of the man child.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
1 Thessalonians is the second coming of Christ... A body hast thou prepared me - the body of Christ, the man child.
 
M

miktre

Guest
#5

1Co 15:52 &
1 Thessalonians 4:16 are not the same event. One is the first coming of Christ and the other is the second coming of Christ.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1) The trumpet shall sound - The last trump is the New Testament. Jesus' earthly ministry started the last trump.
2) The dead shall be raised incorruptible - Resurrection of the Old Testament saints, the first fruits.
3) We shall be changed - All alive put on the righteousness of Christ and everlasting life. Death was swallowed up in victory.
1st Corinthians is the first coming of Christ.


1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1) With the trump of God - It doesn't say at the sounding of the trumpet, it says with the trump of God... he was holding it in his hand.


2) The dead in Christ shall rise first - The saints that have died from Christ to when he returns.
3) Caught up - The birth of the man child.

1 Thessalonians is the second coming of Christ... A body hast thou prepared me - the body of Christ, the man child.
I will respectfully disagree with your post on this one key point.

You say that Paul is speaking in 1Corinthians 15about an event that already happened?
In fact Paul is speaking of a future event to those at Corinth

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
The trumpet shall sound not "the trumpet has sounded"
 
Nov 23, 2013
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#6
I will respectfully disagree with your post on this one key point.

You say that Paul is speaking in 1Corinthians 15about an event that already happened?
In fact Paul is speaking of a future event to those at Corinth

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
The trumpet shall sound not "the trumpet has sounded"
No problem Miktre, I know exactly what you're saying. I have struggled with that passage for a long while. I believe the ministry of Christ, started the last trump ( the New Testament), it began to sound then and continues to sound to this day. But shortly after it began to sound, Christ was crucified and raised from the dead. At the same time, the Old Testament saints were raised and all believers put on the righteousness of Christ.

At the end of the age, this process will be repeated after the trumpet has finished sounding. The dead will be raised again and believers will be changed to immortal bodies.

I'm not trying to change anyone's view on this, but only trying to clarify my position.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
#7
It is clear from the context that 1 Thes 4 is the Second Coming of Christ from 1 Thes 5:2. It is clear from the context that 1 Cor 15 is post millennium, the eternal state as the last enemy Christ defeats is death. The two events are 1,000 years +/- apart. There is virtually nothing similar in the two passages and neither prove or even hint at a Rapture.

[TABLE="width: 303"]
[TR]
[TD]Event[/TD]
[TD]1 Thes 4[/TD]
[TD]1 Cor 15[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Saints coming from heaven[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Lord Coming[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Angel(s) Present[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Voice of Anchangel[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]A Shout[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Alive Caught up/Gathered[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Meet in clouds in "air"[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Always be with the Lord[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Timing Given[/TD]
[TD]x*[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]A Trumpet[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Asleep Proceeding Living[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Dead in Christ Resurrected[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Living "Changed"[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Kingdom of God[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]In a moment/twinkling of eye[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Last Trump or Trumpet[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]* in 1 Thes 5:2[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

The Rapture doctrine is bogus and most likely the work of Satan which he will use to fool Christians into worshiping the antichrist by reversing the order of appearances. The Rapture flies in the face of Jesus' own teaching of the Olivet Discourse and the teachings of Paul in 2 Thessalonians Chapters 1 & 2 where Paul clearly gives the timing of the Lord's one and only return. The Rapture doctrine conflicts with scripture and must be rejected.
 
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M

miktre

Guest
#8
Lets look at the one key similarity that you can't get past.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.



1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

How many times can you raise the dead and the living? Why would you raise them twice? How could the living be raised twice?
Makes no sense, whatsoever
 
Nov 23, 2013
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#9
Lets look at the one key similarity that you can't get past.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.



1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

How many times can you raise the dead and the living? Why would you raise them twice? How could the living be raised twice?
Makes no sense, whatsoever
Why would you raise the dead twice?

A major resurrection took place when Jesus rose from the dead. Many people were raised from the dead, these Old Testament saints ascended with Jesus.

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

There will be another resurrection when Jesus comes back. All the Christians that have died for the last 2000 years will be raised from the dead when Jesus returns.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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#10
It is clear from the context that 1 Thes 4 is the Second Coming of Christ from 1 Thes 5:2. It is clear from the context that 1 Cor 15 is post millennium, the eternal state as the last enemy Christ defeats is death. The two events are 1,000 years +/- apart. There is virtually nothing similar in the two passages and neither prove or even hint at a Rapture.

[TABLE="width: 303"]
[TR]
[TD]Event[/TD]
[TD]1 Thes 4[/TD]
[TD]1 Cor 15[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Saints coming from heaven[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Lord Coming[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Angel(s) Present[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Voice of Anchangel[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]A Shout[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Alive Caught up/Gathered[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Meet in clouds in "air"[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Always be with the Lord[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Timing Given[/TD]
[TD]x*[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]A Trumpet[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Asleep Proceeding Living[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Dead in Christ Resurrected[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Living "Changed"[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Kingdom of God[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]In a moment/twinkling of eye[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Last Trump or Trumpet[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]* in 1 Thes 5:2[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

The Rapture doctrine is bogus and most likely the work of Satan which he will use to fool Christians into worshiping the antichrist by reversing the order of appearances. The Rapture flies in the face of Jesus' own teaching of the Olivet Discourse and the teachings of Paul in 2 Thessalonians Chapters 1 & 2 where Paul clearly gives the timing of the Lord's one and only return. The Rapture doctrine conflicts with scripture and must be rejected.
Where do you put all those Old Testaments saints that were raised with Jesus?
 
M

miktre

Guest
#11
Why would you raise the dead twice?

A major resurrection took place when Jesus rose from the dead. Many people were raised from the dead, these Old Testament saints ascended with Jesus.

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

There will be another resurrection when Jesus comes back. All the Christians that have died for the last 2000 years will be raised from the dead when Jesus returns.
Well Paul said it is error to say that the resurrection has already happened, No?

2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
 
M

miktre

Guest
#12
Well Paul said it is error to say that the resurrection has already happened, No?

2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
Is there three resurrections?
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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#13
Well Paul said it is error to say that the resurrection has already happened, No?

2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
That's because it hadn't already happened. Only the first fruits were resurrected. The first resurrection is not done, the main harvest is still to come. Read the verses below very carefully and you will see that "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" is actually the second resurrection... the resurrection of the unjust. Remember, the bible is written in code so that only His, by the leading of the Holy Spirit can get it.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.Rev_20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

"This is the first resurrection" mentioned in verse 25 is talking about those mentioned in verse 24. Verse 24 is the first resurrection, verse 25 is the second resurrection... after the 1000 year reign. This is the resurrection of the unjust.

I love my King James bible man... the language is so cryptic and so beautiful. There are only 2 resurrection, the resurrection of the just (comes in 2 parts) and the resurrection of the unjust.
 
M

miktre

Guest
#14
That's because it hadn't already happened. Only the first fruits were resurrected. The first resurrection is not done, the main harvest is still to come. Read the verses below very carefully and you will see that "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" is actually the second resurrection... the resurrection of the unjust. Remember, the bible is written in code so that only His, by the leading of the Holy Spirit can get it.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.Rev_20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

"This is the first resurrection" mentioned in verse 25 is talking about those mentioned in verse 24. Verse 24 is the first resurrection, verse 25 is the second resurrection... after the 1000 year reign. This is the resurrection of the unjust.

I love my King James bible man... the language is so cryptic and so beautiful. There are only 2 resurrection, the resurrection of the just (comes in 2 parts) and the resurrection of the unjust.
OK, I love KJV too and I'm still not seeing it. Resurrection being spoke of in 1co15 shows the dead and living being changed.
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
This has to be the first resurection
 
Nov 23, 2013
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#15
The resurrection of Jesus was huge, ten thousands of his saints were resurrected with him. How do we know this?

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

What manner is Jesus coming back?

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Jesus left with ten thousands of his saints, and Jesus is coming back with ten thousands of his saints.
 
M

miktre

Guest
#16
The resurrection of Jesus was huge, ten thousands of his saints were resurrected with him. How do we know this?

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

What manner is Jesus coming back?

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Jesus left with ten thousands of his saints, and Jesus is coming back with ten thousands of his saints.
Yes but were focusing on these 2 verses.
Also whats interesting is the parable of the rich man and lazurus. Abraham was already in heaven. I reject the notion that this is merely a parable. One must believe that this is the one and only parable that based on fiction for Abraham not to be there. Every other parable is based on events that could actually of happened. Why would Christ teach about His most treasured subject, the kingdom of heaven, using a false pretense if it were not so.

It's official, this thread has been derailed, LoL
 
M

miktre

Guest
#17
The resurrection of Jesus was huge, ten thousands of his saints were resurrected with him. How do we know this?

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

What manner is Jesus coming back?

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Jesus left with ten thousands of his saints, and Jesus is coming back with ten thousands of his saints.
There are also saints martyred in the tribulation.
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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#18
OK, I love KJV too and I'm still not seeing it. Resurrection being spoke of in 1co15 shows the dead and living being changed.
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
This has to be the first resurection
It is confusing miktre, I agree. Let's hold off on the living being changed for a moment and concentrate on the resurrection of the dead first. There are only 2 "named" resurrections in the bible, the resurrection of the just and the resurrection of the unjust.

Act 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Just because there are 2 named resurrections doesn't mean that there are only 2 resurrections, it only means that the just will be resurrected and the unjust will be resurrected.

The resurrection of the just takes place in 2 parts... one when Jesus resurrected and another when the dead in Christ will be raised at the second coming. This 2 part resurrection is called the resurrection of the just. Think about it, those resurrected with Christ were just, also those that will be resurrected at his return are just.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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#19
Yes but were focusing on these 2 verses.
Also whats interesting is the parable of the rich man and lazurus. Abraham was already in heaven. I reject the notion that this is merely a parable. One must believe that this is the one and only parable that based on fiction for Abraham not to be there. Every other parable is based on events that could actually of happened. Why would Christ teach about His most treasured subject, the kingdom of heaven, using a false pretense if it were not so.

It's official, this thread has been derailed, LoL
Lazarus was not in heaven, he was in Abraham's bosom... and no it was not merely a parable, it was real. This is where Jesus went to minister when he was crucified. This whole story is laid out in parable form in Genesis. It's the story about the butler and the baker. Think about it, Joseph (a shadow of Jesus) was in prison ministering to the captives. One group was raised up, and the other group was cut off.
 
M

miktre

Guest
#20
It is confusing miktre, I agree. Let's hold off on the living being changed for a moment and concentrate on the resurrection of the dead first. There are only 2 "named" resurrections in the bible, the resurrection of the just and the resurrection of the unjust.

Act 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Just because there are 2 named resurrections doesn't mean that there are only 2 resurrections, it only means that the just will be resurrected and the unjust will be resurrected.

The resurrection of the just takes place in 2 parts... one when Jesus resurrected and another when the dead in Christ will be raised at the second coming. This 2 part resurrection is called the resurrection of the just. Think about it, those resurrected with Christ were just, also those that will be resurrected at his return are just.
I see what you're saying and I'm trying to justify it scripturally. I think we both have different definitions of what resurrection actually means. I believe it means to be present on earth again, not just to go up to heaven. I think you think it means to go to heaven.

1Co 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen
Christ actually rose from the dead and was alive on earth, unlike the saints that came out of the grave when He died three days prior. IT would be like saying Christ was instantly resurrected, not 3 days later
 
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