salvation for those who have never heard the word?

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Cako53

Guest
#21
This reference really nails this issue.

http://www.laborersinchrist.org/answers/q.htm

Jesus Christ really did die for the sins of the whole world.

The unpardonable sin is rejecting the salvation that his sacrifice offers.

When people are born, their names are in the Book of Life.

When they reject Christ their names are blotted out.

All that they have left is their deeds. Not their sins, but their good deeds will condemn them because human good has no value in God's eyes. That is why we depend on Christ's righteousness, not our own.
Does the bible not say that we were conceived in sin, that even in the womb we were sinners? So how can our names be written down in the book of life if we are covered in sin and havent repented. You can't come before God with sin on you. He is to Holy. So I don't get how your name would be down right away. Now I do understand the age of understanding if you are 2 and die I would assume that you would go to heaven, but what about someone who is 30?
 
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Graybeard

Guest
#22
Those who have never had the opportunity of hearing about Christ will be judged according to their hearts. If they with all intent believe what they do is right it will not be held accountable to them.
 
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jcspartan

Guest
#23
Does that mean by preaching the Gospel where it has not been heard we are actually making it harder for someone to get into heaven--or easier to go to hell since they will know the full truth and how impossible it is to measure up to God's holiness?
 
C

Cako53

Guest
#24
Does that mean by preaching the Gospel where it has not been heard we are actually making it harder for someone to get into heaven--or easier to go to hell since they will know the full truth and how impossible it is to measure up to God's holiness?
God doesn't expect us to measure up to his hollyness. He wants us to give him his life and try our best. He knows for a fact we are going to mess up, because "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."
 
J

jcspartan

Guest
#25
Those who have never had the opportunity of hearing about Christ will be judged according to their hearts. If they with all intent believe what they do is right it will not be held accountable to them.
Sorry I left off the quote

Greybeard I thought the perspective interesting so from your perspective...

Does that mean by preaching the Gospel where it has not been heard we are actually making it harder for someone to get into heaven--or easier to go to hell since they will know the full truth and how impossible it is to measure up to God's holiness?
 
D

Definition_Christ

Guest
#26
Sorry I left off the quote

Greybeard I thought the perspective interesting so from your perspective...

Does that mean by preaching the Gospel where it has not been heard we are actually making it harder for someone to get into heaven--or easier to go to hell since they will know the full truth and how impossible it is to measure up to God's holiness?
Are you saying it's impossible for Christians or Messianic Believers to get into heaven because we know the truth?
 
G

Graybeard

Guest
#27
Sorry I left off the quote

Greybeard I thought the perspective interesting so from your perspective...

Does that mean by preaching the Gospel where it has not been heard we are actually making it harder for someone to get into heaven--or easier to go to hell since they will know the full truth and how impossible it is to measure up to God's holiness?
No..because it is by Grace that we are saved and nothing else!
 
J

jcspartan

Guest
#28
God doesn't expect us to measure up to his hollyness. He wants us to give him his life and try our best. He knows for a fact we are going to mess up, because "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

Who did the drawing? looks good.

I understand God does not expect us to measure up. That is the point of Christ's sacrifice. I did not word my question well. I left off the quote and worded the question poorly--all jacked up.

I was wondering if uniformed Bushman Bod (to plagiarize Suaso) has an easier time escaping the fiery pit if judged on his imperfect knowledge of good and evil/right and wrong compared to Bushman Bob's brother Bubba who had to carry a coke bottle (The Gods Must Be Crazy) away from the village and encountered a missionary who revealed the truth of the perfect law and and God's gift of grace-Christ?

Bob stands on the merit of his limited human knowledge.

Bubba stands in the fullness of understanding.

Neither has accepted Christ yet.

It is kind of a angel dancing on the head of a pin question. But I am thinking of it in terms of missions and the missionaries who spread the gospel. It has echos of the age of consciousness question we raise related to when babies and toddlers die.
 
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Definition_Christ

Guest
#29
Who did the drawing? looks good.

I understand God does not expect us to measure up. That is the point of Christ's sacrifice. I did not word my question well. I left off the quote and worded the question poorly--all jacked up.

I was wondering if uniformed Bushman Bod (to plagiarize Suaso) has an easier time escaping the fiery pit if judged on his imperfect knowledge of good and evil/right and wrong compared to Bushman Bob's brother Bubba who had to carry a coke bottle (The Gods Must Be Crazy) away from the village and encountered a missionary who revealed the truth of the perfect law and and God's gift of grace-Christ?

Bob stands on the merit of his limited human knowledge.

Bubba stands in the fullness of understanding.

Neither has accepted Christ yet.

It is kind of a angel dancing on the head of a pin question. But I am thinking of it in terms of missions and the missionaries who spread the gospel. It has echos of the age of consciousness question we raise related to when babies and toddlers die.
Romans 7
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”
8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.
9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.
12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.
13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.
16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.
20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.
22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
 
C

Cako53

Guest
#30
Who did the drawing? looks good.

I understand God does not expect us to measure up. That is the point of Christ's sacrifice. I did not word my question well. I left off the quote and worded the question poorly--all jacked up.

I was wondering if uniformed Bushman Bod (to plagiarize Suaso) has an easier time escaping the fiery pit if judged on his imperfect knowledge of good and evil/right and wrong compared to Bushman Bob's brother Bubba who had to carry a coke bottle (The Gods Must Be Crazy) away from the village and encountered a missionary who revealed the truth of the perfect law and and God's gift of grace-Christ?

Bob stands on the merit of his limited human knowledge.

Bubba stands in the fullness of understanding.

Neither has accepted Christ yet.

It is kind of a angel dancing on the head of a pin question. But I am thinking of it in terms of missions and the missionaries who spread the gospel. It has echos of the age of consciousness question we raise related to when babies and toddlers die.
A friend of mine drew me for me :)

I don't know the answer to this, that is why I'm here asking. I am curious myself. I just heard some people say that people can get into have by their deeds, and I was like, excuse me? I don't believe in that at all.
 
S

suaso

Guest
#31
While it would seem better to think that Bushman Bob, in his ignorance, stands a way better chance than we do, I think it may be harder for him. He desires to know God, but does not know him, so he is not as able to do the will of the God he does not know. Instead, he does the will of the gods, goddesses, and spirits he thinks he knows, and that will may not be so much as innocently distorted as a blind man grasping at shadows, but could be so inherently disordered as to be purely evil. For this reason, Bushman Bob would be better off having the Gospel preached to him so that this evil in the world no longer happens.

As for us, we must preach the Gospel because it is a directive from the Lord that we do so. The more responsibility one has, the more accountable one is for what one does with that responsibility. In the end, we are all accountable, from Bushman Bob to Missionary Matilda to Christian Charlie. Some of us will have more held against us than others.
 
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jcspartan

Guest
#32
Cako

I think based off Romans God will render to each person according to their deeds. We are judged by what we do. But that is different then getting into heaven off works. Because whatever standard you have, the question is "Do you hold your standard perfectly?" I don't think any man or woman holds any standard perfectly. So, without God's grace there is no hope of salvation. I am not going to be dogmatic on this since God is clear that He is the judge and He will judge based on the light they have. It is not my concern on a practical level. Mine is just to obey and go into the world and proclaim the Gospel.

Suaso grasped the tenor of my question and I think her answer hit the nail on the head and sums up what I was driving in my own thoughts.

I was geneuinely interested in Greybeards take on it given his initial point and wanted to hear his thoughts more fully.
 
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greatkraw

Guest
#33
Does that mean by preaching the Gospel where it has not been heard we are actually making it harder for someone to get into heaven--or easier to go to hell since they will know the full truth and how impossible it is to measure up to God's holiness?
God will most certainly judge all according to the amount of light that they have.
 
M

Mes

Guest
#34
how do ww know that we are saved?
 
G

greatkraw

Guest
#35
how do ww know that we are saved?

Do you know you have a personal relationship with the creator of the universe?

You know if you have a personal relationship with other people.
 
J

jcspartan

Guest
#36
Are you saying it's impossible for Christians or Messianic Believers to get into heaven because we know the truth?
Not at all.

I am more asking something more along the lines of, "to him who little is given, little is expected. To him who much is given, much is expected" The unbeliver does not have much truth. So, is the threshhold for what is required less than what is expected of the person knowing the full extent of the law or the gospel message?

Romans 7:7 makes it clear that it is through the Law that we know what sin is. The law convicts us because we cannot live up to it.

Also in Romans Paul implies that all people should have some level of knowledge of good and bad from inherent understanding because God's law is writen on our hearts.

As I read through 2 Peter 2:4-8 it seems equally clear that God does not abandon those who seek Him. People were held accountable to God's standard of holiness even before the law was handed down.
 
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NoTearsShed

Guest
#37
how do ww know that we are saved?

You accepted God as your saviour, you told him you believe & want to change your bad ways,
We all sin & no one is perfect.
God knows that =)

Some sins are sins we have control over & not do for example getting drunk... we can chose to either drink or not drink, or having sex with whoever just for lust, we can choose to stay a virgin till marriage the way God inteded us to do so, or you can go out & sin by sleeping around.
Getting raped is not our fault but the other person who was raping you, & thats different (incase you were wondering what if we get raped)

Theres somethings we do that we dont even know is wrong & thats were we should ask for guidance from God to know & change those ways.
 
C

Cako53

Guest
#38
Ohh don't know if this verse was used yet, but I just found it, so I thought I'd share.

Romans 1:20 (NIV) "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."
 

DinoDillinger

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
839
19
18
#39
This reference really nails this issue.

http://www.laborersinchrist.org/answers/q.htm

Jesus Christ really did die for the sins of the whole world.

The unpardonable sin is rejecting the salvation that his sacrifice offers.

When people are born, their names are in the Book of Life.

When they reject Christ their names are blotted out.

All that they have left is their deeds. Not their sins, but their good deeds will condemn them because human good has no value in God's eyes. That is why we depend on Christ's righteousness, not our own.
I've heard that about the unpardonable sin, I don't believe that is the context when it is spoken but instead attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to evil.

This topic makes me think of the servants who were to watch for their masters coming. Those who don't know are beaten with few stripes, those who did know the master was coming and didn't watch were beat with many stripes. So instead of worrying about the soul's of the aztecs, worry about the people who have heard the gospel, the people you witness too, the lady at the grocery store. I'm speaking to the people who live in 'christian' countries and have heard the gospel before.

Another reason I don't think that is what Jesus meant in that verse is because that would mean a person's only chance to believe would be the first time they heard the gospel.
 

DinoDillinger

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
839
19
18
#40
Ohh don't know if this verse was used yet, but I just found it, so I thought I'd share.

Romans 1:20 (NIV) "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."
If you keep reading you will see man's reaction to this, which I believe is posted at the top. That being man's rejection of God to worship creation, and their own way.
 
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