Predestination or Free Will?

phil112 · Jan 5, 2014

I use Strongs extensively with my KJV. There is an error or two in the KJV, but not that affects doctrine.

I disagree with that. Perhaps in strict definiton you are correct, but when you say predestination, people associate that with the choice already being made for you, and that you literally have no say.
Knowing that you will get a cup of coffee in the morning to drink while reading your newspaper isn't predestination. It is knowledge of what you will CHOOSE to do. Two different things.

Cobus · Jan 5, 2014

Harpyeagle. you have no will.... Will to walk on water let us see if your will can work.... Jesus did. If you cannot then you have no will...As simple as that!

phil112 · Jan 5, 2014

Cobus said:

That isn't will - you are talking about faith now.

Laodicea · Jan 5, 2014

phil112 said:

Here is another text to add to that.

1 Kings 18:21 KJV
(21) And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

tucksma · Jan 5, 2014

Cobus said:

Then explain sections where an angel takes days to do what it wants to happen happen? Or the council that God has with his angels where it sounds like he is "devising a plan of action" of sorts? The bible makes it seem almost like a challenge and that we do have the free will to resist him. Same Time I see where you are coming from. I can adequately argue both sides. Because of this I go about it with the mindset of we will never 100% know how God works with our choices, and that either way I'd act the same rather I'm predestined to or rather I'm doing it out of choice. I'll know when I see my savior after death

LovePink · Jan 5, 2014

Theological terms aside. Christ is the one "predetermined", the decree is given in Psalms. Christ is the "elect" one, this is plainly stated in Isaiah. God the Father invests His plan & purpose in His Son and the Holy Spirit magnifies the truth. Our predestination is in/to identity, inheritance. Our election has to do with service, purpose, function. We are the called OF Christ. We have a high calling to a vocation.

The bible does not say God is the Savior of the elect.

"God is not willing", "God commandeth all men", the call of salvation & reconciliation has gone out to everyone. We are not "called to it", the interesting thing we are the called of, we are the called of Christ because He has achieved that which He was sent to do as the Father's elect. God gives all men assurance by the resurrection of Christ, approach trusting in your heart that Christ died for all of your sins, past, present and future, believe this that God raised Him for our justification and God will receive you and save your soul because of the righteousness of Christ, your Savior & redeemer.

Free will is true. Eternal security is true. You can & will see this as a child of God.

Cobus · Jan 6, 2014

phil112 said:

You see I do not make a distinction between faith or no faith. It is the WILL of GOD that Jesus walked on water. If I want to walk on water GOD HAS TO WILL it. I will have NO faith if God does not WILL it for me. Tell me how you can will faith for yourself, and I will for me as well.

If it is faith and grace that save us where does the grace come from, God!, and the Faith? Also GOD! Faith and grace is BOTH gifts from God. So it is God's will that save. Why is not all people savd then? If God does want all people saved why not just destroy evil and have all people live GODLY? He can do that. Why does He not do it?

It gets back to when Satan started the SECOND will. God's will is holiness and Godliness. Him as God and everything else in HIS Kingdom. One will one God! Then mr. Satan thought. wait let me be like God, and the SECOND will was created... Now Satan wanted two God's, but God wills only ONE... Himself. So God cannot allow this however... God will give all spirits the choice to be UNDER Him in HIS Kingdom, or be spirits of the darkness.

Let us face it now and forever... there is only light or darkness, Good or Evil God or Satan. White or black, Holiness or sin... God teach us well, there is also only two WAYS... On way is the will of Satan for hell, and one way is the way of God to heaven.

A will is a WAY, and there are eonly two ways. God's, Named Jesus, and Satan's named sin. You are on one of the two. There is no third way called Cobus, or Jack, or Dan or John..... We do not have a WAY, so we have no WILL...We only have the choice to follow one of the two ways, and it looks like if we are on the NARROW, STRAIGHT, and HOLY WAY, it was God's choice, so it was also HIS WILL that we be on it. Be thankful and make sure you KEEP ON THE WAY... As God says, you will hear a VOICE to tell you WALK HERE if you want to go off on the left or the right.... WOW! God's Will IS POWERFUL and helps us powerfully to RAMAIN ON THE STRAIGHT AND THE NARROW!!!!

So free choice looks more like the right words, but then God said we did not choose Him He chose us, so it looks pretty set that God is STILL GOD...

p_rehbein · Jan 6, 2014

............

Karraster · Jan 6, 2014

phil112 said:

I don't believe there exists on earth a language to properly answer this question, nor a mind of man to fathom. I can see nothing I do apart from God, even the faith I have is a gift from Him. Even my trials seem designed to bring me closer to Him. I see God everywhere, and nothing is beyond His doing. He will have mercy on who He will have mercy, He is the potter, we are the clay.

phil112 · Jan 6, 2014

Cobus said:

That is somewhat interesting, cobus, but you have come to a conclusion the bible doesn't state. The word of God makes a distinction, so why wouldn't you?

For myself, I make my thoughts and reasoning conform to God's word, not the other way around. You have decided what you believe and want the bible to support your decision. It doesn't.

Cobus · Jan 6, 2014

Phill do you have faith? Where did you get it? If God does not give you faith you do not have it. So if you have faith or do not have faith, what can YOU DO about it? Did you read 1 Cor 12:9? Faith is a GIFT, it is NOTHING to do about you.

Here is my question to you. If I do NOT have faith, how can I get it? Do you have faith to move a mountain? Jesus said if you did have faith the size of a mustard seed you WILL move mountains... do you move mountains? Then yuo also have NO FAITH...

Faith in God is God's WILL and no man can OBTAIN it in ANY WAY!

Phillie it is time we stop playing and start to realize we do not live in God's WILL. If we pray ... Father let Thy will eb done... Is HIS will done in us? There is NO distinction betwwen Faith and no Faith.... The RIGHTEOUS shall live by faith.... And the Righteous is made righteous BY GOD DOING HIS WILL.... So even the righteous and his faith is GOD'S DOING.... Not his. That iswhy I make no distinction between faith and no faith... IT IS IN GOD'S HANDS....I cannot give you more faith or take away the faith you have. GOD dish out faith.... 1 Cor 12:9. A GIFT by the Holy Spirit. And since I have NO HOLY Spirit, how can I have FAITH? I do not bulldust others or myself.... If i had faith, I would do what Jesus did and more....

Phillie how do you make your faith bigger or more? And what does your faith do to your sick people? Do you have this faith the elders should have?... James 5... Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

Ohillie stop playing church..... tell me your faith is of this claibre.... if not why not? I thought you make distinction between faith and no faith.... Show me your WORKS, do not tell me your WORDS.... No works no faith.... IF you want me to make a distinction, SHOW me faith, do not TALK faith and walk pityful NOTHING!

phil112 · Jan 6, 2014

Cobus said:

One thing I don't do, when someone says something I don't like, I don't start calling them names.

Okay, let's see what you have. You can't ask for a gift. Got it. I can, and I have, and it has been granted.

A gift has everything to do with the recipient. Have no idea where you got that, but it certainly isn't bible.

1 Corinthians 12:31
[SUP] [/SUP]But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

dcontroversal · Jan 6, 2014

phil112 said:

There is a fine line in the sand here as some religions teach that you are predestined to be saved and there is nothing you can do about it which is (FALSE). God knew from the casting down of the world who would believe and who would not and he (PREDETERMINED) that ALL who would come to Him through His SON Jesus would be received as full grown children while those who reject will be cast into the lake of fire for all eternity. God, having known who would believe and who would not also (made the wicked) for the day of destruction, but make no mistake, as the wicked have the same choice that the saved made as
1. Day unto day and night unto night utters speech and sets forth knowledge.
2. There is NO LANGUAGE of Voice that is beyond the reach of the speech being uttered
3. Every man has been dealt a MEASURE of faith and can believe
4. The invisible things also testify to the power of God and the Godhead
5. Jesus has made the way possible for all and died for all.

The words (Saint) and (Elect) are also a good study and identify us in the following ways.

The word Saint describes who we are in Christ as (holy)
The word Elect describes our standing in Christ as (chosen)

Cobus · Jan 6, 2014

Phillie, Ohillie, Sorry the O jumped when i tried to type a P.... Sorry no it is not name calling it is just trying to be friendly, it is a South African thing, so man up a bit and do not be so sentsitive. It has NO meaning I am called Kosie from Cobus more than Cobus itself, and it really is just names....

Phil, you did not answer... Do you have faith? and to what size? A mustard seed, a pepper seed or corn seed? On a scale of 1 to 10, what is your faith level? I remember how the disciples chased out and healed some people then they got stuck on a epileptic spirit, and Jesus REBUKED them for their LACK of faith.... would Jesus rebuke you for yours?

Come on Phil share with me what you asked and what you received. You asked and it was granted, share with me. Covet a gift, Oh how I covet the Holy Spirit, and He can come with ANY gift HE PLEASES,,,, we may cover all we want, but the fact remains... HE GIVES AS HE PLEASES.....

So how did He please Himslef with you? What gift did you get? Share with me please Phil.

phil112 · Jan 6, 2014

Cobus said:

And, would you mind telling me, who are you that it is necessary for me to prove myself to you? As for what is a gift and how do you get them, if you are what you claim to be, it wouldn't be necessary for me to tell you. May I suggest that you get a fresh glass of milk and think about it.

notuptome · Jan 6, 2014

Man was created with a free will. A free will is necessary for man to worship God in a meaningful manner. Man's will is not superior to God's will but it is very similar. Now when man fell in the garden he received by virtue of the forbidden fruit the knowledge of good and evil. This knowledge requires man to choose which he will follow.

God knows what will happen from one end of eternity to the other end of eternity because God inhabits all of eternity. God knows who will be saved and who will not be saved because God knows the end from the beginning. Man being finite does not know what will happen tomorrow let alone years into the future.

God has predestined that all who believe in Christ will be saved. God does not compel man to be saved against man's will. God pleads with man to submit his will to God's will and be saved. Those who are lost refuse to submit to God's will on this matter. We know that God has concluded all in unbelief that He might have mercy on all.

Ever before God created the earth and man in the earth God determined to send His Son to die on the cross of Calvary to atone for man's sin.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

jb · Jan 6, 2014

The predestination and election of God are represented in Scripture as being dependent upon His foreknowledge, and not vice versa. Men are not depicted as acting because God has forced their wills: but God is said to predestinate them to do what His foreknowledge knows they will want to do, "whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate." Rom 8v29, 1Peter 1v2

Cobus · Jan 6, 2014

phil112 said:

Phil I am the man that MUST judge you. But you speak out and claim stuff, and when I put your spirit to the test you bail out.... I am doing this.... Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Dwark · Jan 6, 2014

phil112 said:

There is a lot of fudging with terms on this issue.

If you define predestination as what God has determined you will do, then you make God the author of sin: Which is not the definition of God. Since this is in the form of a dichotomy and the one stance is shown false, than free will is true.

Elin · Jan 10, 2014

Dwark said:

Only by human, instead of Bibilcal, reasoning.

Again, only by human, instead of Biblical, reasoning.

Predestination or Free Will?

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