Attack of the Judaizers

just-me · Jan 5, 2014

There is a proper way to look at circumcision, and I think we can all agree if it weren't written in the Mosaic Law.

Deuteronomy 10:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Romans 2:29 (KJV)
[SUP]29 [/SUP]But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Deuteronomy then is not the letter then as Paul says. It all boils down to the spiritual aspects of the Mosaic Law. The Pharisees didn't have it right. Though Christ we can see God's original intentions from the beginning. Fulfilling is completing, and "ending" is placing final piece where it belongs to complete the project. Cool isn't it? I love all of the Word.

just-me · Jan 5, 2014

The Sabbath was made for convocation, and to converse, taking time out to edify, and a time to be instructed. It is a time to enter into God's rest, from the hassles of the daily life and meditate. Sabbath is also related to the word Selah in the Psalms, giving us time to think about what David and the other Psalmists were singing. Observance of the Sabbath is *ceasing from self-works, and having faith that produces righteous works that are motivated by the gift of faith.

Mark 2:27-28 (KJV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP]And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
Hebrews 4:1 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

Hebrews 4:10 (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For he that is entered into his rest, *he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

On the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] day He rested. Spiritual comparisons are necessary.

Hebrews 13:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.

danschance · Jan 5, 2014

just-me said:

John 5:46-47 (KJV)
[SUP]46 [/SUP]For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
This passage is a castigation of the religious leaders of Christ's day. I don't think it is about the law at all but it seems to be about unbelief.

Romans 7:12 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
I do not believe this scripture is referencing the Mosaic law at all. I have noticed in past conversations with a Judaizer that he latched on to every NT usage of the term law or commandment to justify his observance of parts of the Mosiac law. He never saw a difference be tween the Mosaic laws and the laws/commandments of Christ.

In the New Testament we are told to follow Christ's Commandments. Christ affirmed parts of the moral law that was also stated in the OT. In the NT 9 of the 10 commandments are affirmed, sabbath observance, festival observance and kosher foods were not.

Christ seemed to downgrade some of the Mosaic laws. He and His disciples picked grain from a field which was a clear violation of the the letter of Mosaic law but it did not violate the spirit of the law. Another time Christ It is not what goes into a man that defiles him but what comes out. Again this contradicts the law of Moses, "lest you be defiled by them" Lev. 11 Jesus also seemed to violate ritual washing laws.

2Thewaters · Jan 5, 2014

Why worry about it?
We dont do that anymore

ukstevie · Jan 5, 2014

Josh321 said:

Please forgive me for what appears to be an obvious question but my Bible knowledge and understanding is basic though I am trying to improve my life since finding God.

So my question is this......I have not eaten meat for 25 years due to the way the food industry operated, from a health point of view and the mis-treatment of animals, this is way before I turned to God. Now that I know the truth I should start eating meat again to please God?
First time I have read this and I was shocked I must confess.

I only got my first Bible in November 2013 which is KJV...I am guessing a KJV is a KJV and there are no more accurate Bibles in English?
Also I have read Websters Bible is an accurate modern English translation, or am I being mis-lead?
I know to some they may seem like stupid questions but I like would a genuine answer to these.
Sorry for being so dumb!

danschance · Jan 5, 2014

ukstevie said:

You are free to eat as you please. Also the bible teaches to never go against your own conscious. If you feel it is wrong to eat meat because of they way they farmed or processed, then by all means, don't eat meat and you have no problems with what the scripture teaches. God would not be pleased if you violated your own convictions. So never feel bad that you have chosen to only eat a vegetarian diet.

Use whatever bible you wish. I would never use a catholic bible that has the apocrypha, a masonic bible, the Joseph Smith Translation or the Jehovah's witness' New world translation as these bibles have been altered. Beyond that feel free to read what ever version you wish. The KJV is a good version but I think the NASB is a more accurate bible. I also like to read the NLT (New Living Translation) as it is very easy to read. Besides the bibles I mentioned as being altered, all other bibles are fine and you can find they all teach the same basic ideas.

I am glad you have found Christ and found this site. I look forward to read more of your posts.

LT · Jan 5, 2014

ukstevie said:

If your conscience is bothered by eating meat, don't eat it. Just don't try to convince others that it is necessary to not eat meat. What pleases God is not what you eat or how you eat it, but remembering to thank Him for it.

As for the Bible translation:
NASB is the most literal and grammatically accurate English version.
ESV has a good balance between 'word for word' and 'thought for thought' translation.
KJV is time tested, and very solid.
Websters is not a common translation. It was done well, but is not as trusted as even NIV.

Don't get too caught up in the Bible version. The Holy Spirit is who reveals the Scripture to us, and the Word of God cuts through any language/translation barrier. Just get into reading whatever version you have, and make it a lifestyle.

just-me · Jan 5, 2014

danschance said:

So John and Jesus just used Moses for an excuse? John 5:44-45 (KJV)
[SUP]44 [/SUP]How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
[SUP]45 [/SUP]Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

danschance said:

So you are saying what God gave to Moses Christ changed and is different now?

danschance said:

That's 2 here is more..... you're doing good so far even though I don't see it as you do. I am curious how you interpret scripture.

Romans 7:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Romans 7:22 (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Romans 8:7 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

ukstevie · Jan 5, 2014

Thankyou for the replies Danschance and LT it is really appreciated....puts my mind a little more at rest re:- meat.......I will also look a bit more into these Bibles to help compliment the KJV. Guess its always good to have something to translate things I cant get my head round or don't understand specific words.

just-me · Jan 5, 2014

ukstevie said:

Take the Word of God at face value. Pray about it and see that most is really not hard to comprehend. I am presenting scripture that agrees with itself. That's the way is is. The clay can't say to the potter that He made an error when forming the original pot. Many try to make God rather than being satisfied that He makes us. Jesus is the creator, and He was there without dispute when Moses received the law from His Father. Jesus couldn't change that, for Jesus did nothing outside of His Father's will.

John 8:17-18 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

Colossians 1:12-19 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Never forget, if Jesus was there at mount Sinai, Jesus never once went against His Father, and God doesn't change His ways.

Malachi 3:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Hebrews 13:8 (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

John 17:5 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Jesus never said. "Never mind what my Father gave to Moses, you are to do it my way now."He said Just the opposite.

Matthew 5:18 (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Heaven and earth are still here

RedTent · Jan 5, 2014

I have been judged a judaizer. You down with the law people say that when I stand up for law, I am denying Christ. When I have said that we need to relate our everyday life to life with the Lord I am told we must not do that, Paul taught us not to, it is sinful. You people truly believe it is best to hide your Christianity so no one can see it. When I say that Christ wanted obedience if we love Him, you say that Christ did away with all law and obedience requires knowledge of law. When I say that we must have Christ in our heart, but that needs to be checked to be sure our heart is right, you say absolutely not, we become perfect when we accept Christ, anything our heart says to us after that is always reliable and perfect, we do not need to even think about written law. When I show that all this is not scriptural, you ignore it and give scriptures you say is sure proof that you may distort, deny, and use words to make it sound wonderful so it makes it OK.

So immorality is preached, for that is what relying on our own hearts without checking what God is. I began studying the OT, for I had only read it with no understanding. I knew all about our life in Christ, but nothing about what Christ based what He did on. Then I began studying OT, with ancient culture and Hebrew word meanings. With every verse of the OT, I was sent to how Christ fulfilled it. I had been studying scripture backwards. Christ knew OT, Christ was sent by His Father to mold the world to better accept gentiles. If you don't understand what Christ started with, you don't understand Christ.

So you are all cutting out the foundations of Christ. The definition of a judaizer is one who uses rituals in the wrong way. If we know OT, then we know about how the Jews lived and how Christ changed things. You say we are not to know that, it is Judaizing. You have no idea of how you are damaging the kingdom of God. How you are demeaning Christ and what wonders Christ has performed for you. I'm ashamed of you as fellow Christians.

Angela53510 · Jan 5, 2014

ukstevie said:

I was in the same situation as you when I got saved. I had been a vegetarian for 10 years and I was told by my husband I had to eat meat. My reason for not eating meat was for health, as I cannot digest it well.

After a couple of years of eating meat, I started getting quite sick. My husband urged me to go back to being a vegetarian, realizing he had been legalistic, and meat was hurting me. I have been meatless for almost 40 years now, minus the couple of years he forced me to eat meat, and unhealthy foods. The sad irony, is he became diabetic on the typical western diet. We took a course on how to eat, and it was the same diet I was on - high fibre, low fat. He admitted my diet was the right one after all. I call it my "God diet." I eat food in the closest form to which God created it.

As for which translation, I have tried them all and found the English Standard Version to be the closest to the original languages, which I read. Get a version you understand, but be careful of cult translations, as someone else mentioned.

WomanLovesTX · Jan 6, 2014

If you are a child of God through salvation of Yeshua/Jesus, you belong to one of the two houses, Israel/ Ephraim and their companions or Judah and their companions. Neither is without sin and short comings. We are called to love each other, and restoration of the whole house of Israel has begun. The twin truth of Law AND Grace is being restored in these last days. There is no room in the coming of God's Kingdom for anti-semitism or anti-Christian.

danschance · Jan 6, 2014

just-me said:

These verses mention law and I did answer you about these verses in my previous post.

The Judaizer see's the word law and assumes that to mean the Mosaic law. However, a detailed look into what the NT calls law is not the same as the law of Moses at all. All the ritual requirements of the Mosaic law have been fulfilled by Christ and have no hold on Christians. Judaizers are the ones who seek "Christ plus Mosaic law(s)". While NT law and commandments have been given to us by Christ.

Christ affirmed 9 out of the 10 commandments and he never affirmed observance of sabbath, dietary restrictions, animal sacrifice or ritual washing. We are still under obligation to love God and our neighbor. We as Christians are told to obey the Moral laws Christ gave us. We as Christians are not under the ritual laws of the Mosaic laws. If think otherwise, then you maybe a Judaizer or plain confused. The Judaizer's gospel is "Christ plus one or more aspects of the ritual laws of Moses". Jesus clearly taught the old covenant and the new covenant are not compatible.

danschance · Jan 6, 2014

RedTent said:

I have been judged a judaizer. You down with the law people say that when I stand up for law, I am denying Christ. When I have said that we need to relate our everyday life to life with the Lord I am told we must not do that, Paul taught us not to, it is sinful. You people truly believe it is best to hide your Christianity so no one can see it. When I say that Christ wanted obedience if we love Him, you say that Christ did away with all law and obedience requires knowledge of law. When I say that we must have Christ in our heart, but that needs to be checked to be sure our heart is right, you say absolutely not, we become perfect when we accept Christ, anything our heart says to us after that is always reliable and perfect, we do not need to even think about written law. When I show that all this is not scriptural, you ignore it and give scriptures you say is sure proof that you may distort, deny, and use words to make it sound wonderful so it makes it OK.

So immorality is preached, for that is what relying on our own hearts without checking what God is. I began studying the OT, for I had only read it with no understanding. I knew all about our life in Christ, but nothing about what Christ based what He did on. Then I began studying OT, with ancient culture and Hebrew word meanings. With every verse of the OT, I was sent to how Christ fulfilled it. I had been studying scripture backwards. Christ knew OT, Christ was sent by His Father to mold the world to better accept gentiles. If you don't understand what Christ started with, you don't understand Christ.

So you are all cutting out the foundations of Christ. The definition of a judaizer is one who uses rituals in the wrong way. If we know OT, then we know about how the Jews lived and how Christ changed things. You say we are not to know that, it is Judaizing. You have no idea of how you are damaging the kingdom of God. How you are demeaning Christ and what wonders Christ has performed for you. I'm ashamed of you as fellow Christians.

Red, I am not saying you are or are not a Judaizer nor have I ever stated that. A Judaizer is a person who claims we must "follow Christ and be under obligation to obey one or more of the ritual laws of Moses." According to Paul Judaizers are preaching another gospel or false gospel.

danschance · Jan 6, 2014

WomanLovesTX said:

Wow, spoken like a true Judaizer.

Karraster · Jan 6, 2014

[h=3]Continuance of observance of Torah by Jews who have converted to Christianity[/h] This behavior was particularly persecuted between 1300 and 1800 under the Spanish and Portuguese Inquisitions, using as a basis the many references in the Pauline epistles regarding the "Law as a curse" and the futility of relying on the Law for attaining salvation, known as legalism. Thus, in spite of Paul's agreement at the Council of Jerusalem, Gentile Christianity came to understand that any Torah Laws (with the exception of the Ten Commandments and Natural Law) were anathema, not only to Gentile Christians but even to Christians of Jewish extraction. Under the Inquisition, the penalty to a converted Jew for "Judaizing" was usually death by burning.

WomanLovesTX · Jan 6, 2014

danschance said:

Do our love me?

RedTent · Jan 6, 2014

danschance said:

But dans, you guys go so far as to say that it is sinful to perform a ritual law for any reason. I put a typed message on a sheet of paper, put it in a box, and post it by my front door. It is a physical support of my telling the Lord that in my house, I want nothing that isn't for your kingdom, I dedicate it for only God's ways to be in it. I can't always do that, but it is my aim. I got this idea from reading the OT. It is a ritual. I have been told it is sinful because God suggested it in the OT. For this I am labeled a Judaizer. I am told I am playing at being a Jew and that is wrong. Jewish people say I have no right to do this because it is only for them to do.

This is something between me and God. It is no one else's business. I should be free to tell of doing this without fear of being judged for it, but I wasn't, I am judged. Everyone who hears of it condemns me for this, Jews and gentiles alike. Yet it was God's idea in the first place! If I was out and out sinful, Christians would tell me Christ would forgive me, I am still loved. But for typing a scripture and putting it in a box by my front door when I am a gentile, they announce that God is against it and they are against me for doing it. It doesn't seem at all right to me.

danschance · Jan 6, 2014

RedTent said:

But dans, you guys go so far as to say that it is sinful to perform a ritual law for any reason. I put a typed message on a sheet of paper, put it in a box, and post it by my front door. It is a physical support of my telling the Lord that in my house, I want nothing that isn't for your kingdom, I dedicate it for only God's ways to be in it. I can't always do that, but it is my aim. I got this idea from reading the OT. It is a ritual. I have been told it is sinful because God suggested it in the OT. For this I am labeled a Judaizer. I am told I am playing at being a Jew and that is wrong. Jewish people say I have no right to do this because it is only for them to do.

This is something between me and God. It is no one else's business. I should be free to tell of doing this without fear of being judged for it, but I wasn't, I am judged. Everyone who hears of it condemns me for this, Jews and gentiles alike. Yet it was God's idea in the first place! If I was out and out sinful, Christians would tell me Christ would forgive me, I am still loved. But for typing a scripture and putting it in a box by my front door when I am a gentile, they announce that God is against it and they are against me for doing it. It doesn't seem at all right to me.

Red, I have told you this atleast once, I have a Mezuza on my front door. Once I even hosted a Seder for a Jewish friend. it is not wrong to engage in such things. However, it is wrong to say we are under obligation to them when in fact we are free from them.

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