Is Jesus Christ YHWH God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob??

[Graybeard]

This I know has been debated in another thread "Did God die on the cross." but I would like some scriptures only on this subject. What got me thinking on this (I am in no way judging them) was that two very lovely ladies came knocking on my door the other day, yes they where Jehovah's Witness's. During the short conversation the topic of Jesus is God came up where they disagreed, I said there are many scriptures that point to this, she replied that in all her 27yrs of being a Jehovah's Witness she has never heard or seen this in the Bible. (although she did contradict herself a while later saying that whenever she asks Christians to show her this in the Bible that they cannot) I could not think straight at the time as I had just woken up from a late night and said I will phone her with scripture. However, some scriptures that where given in another thread when I read them over appeared to be a bit vague and other scripture appear to contradict them.

“I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.” John 10:28-30

In the OT salvation is directly linked to Yahweh (many translations read Jehova or Lord)

“Yahweh is my strength and my song, and he has become my salvation; this is my God, and I will praise him, my father's God, and I will exalt him.” Exodus 15:2

“Salvation belongs to Yahweh; your blessing be on your people!” Psalm 3:8

“For God alone my soul waits in silence; from him comes my salvation.” Psalm 62:1

“Yahweh is my strength and my song; he has become my salvation… I thank you that you have answered me and have become my salvation.” Psalm 118:14, 21

And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,” Hebrews 5:9

So when in the NT when the act of salvation is attributed to Jesus he is declaring or, being declared to be one and the same with Yaweh

Exodus 3:13-15 God gives his name I AM

John 8:58 Jesus claims the name of I AM

I don't know this, but I was told the JWs have their own version of the Bible and some of the more problematic verses were reworded so associating Jesus with the Father is more difficult. But, they will usually let you refer to the KJ version in discussions with them.

Sure,here are some Scriptures showing Jesus is God. If we could meet up on the Chat room sometime I'd love to share something with you also. Anyway..

Exodus 3:14
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

John 8:24
Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM He, you will die in your sins.”

(Note He is not in the original manuscripts whoever wrote that added it in so it would "make sense" but Jesus did not say "I AM HE" He said "EGO EIMI" Which means I AM. But here is another proof...in John 8:58)

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

(Note the JW's will most likely say "Before Abraham was alive He was in heaven.. With the Father.. They believe that before Jesus was Jesus He was Michael the Archangel..)

"Jesus Christ, whom we understand from the Scriptures to be Michael the archangel" (The Watchtower, February 15, 1979, p. 31),
(You can get them to READ this to you actually ... Before you even start sharing ANY Scripture.. Ask them to open up the Watchtower to page 31 (they are all the same).. And ask them to show you proof that Jesus is Michael the archangel.. They will give you like 1 Thes 5:9
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Which is absolutely NO proof Jesus is Michael the archangel just because it says the LORD will shout with the voice of an archangel... Anyway I'll give you plenty more Scripture for proof Jesus is indeed Jehovah God.

OK...

Ezekiel 1:24
When they went, I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise of many waters, like the voice of the Almighty, a tumult like the noise of an army; and when they stood still, they let down their wings.

Isaiah 44:6
6 “ Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: ‘ I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.

Revelation 1
15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; (LOOK AT EZ 1:24)
16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength.
17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me,“Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. (LOOK AT ISAIAH 44:6)
18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
(Note, they will most likely say well that is Jehovah (The Father, saying this.. But ask continue verse 18 and ask them if the Father was ever dead and is not alive forevermore? Not to mention John takes note it is indeed Jesus)

Here's more...
Isaiah 42:8
8 I am the LORD, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images.

LORD (in all caps) Is translated from YHWH which is often translated to Yahweh or Jehovah or Yehovah.. Hence Jehovah witnesses so if you actually go to the NWT (which they will have on them... Open up Isaiah 44:8 on there bible and it actually says "I AM THE FIRST AND THE LAST SAITH JEHOVAH"..... Open up Isaiah 42:8 which says "I AM JEHOVAH THAT IS MY NAME AND MY GLORY I WILL NOT GIVE TO ANOTHER"

So...

John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Ask them what glory Jesus had, when Isaiah 42:8 clearly says "MY GLORY I WILL NOT GIVE TO ANOTHER"...
The Father is clearly described as Jehovah and so isn't Jesus.. So we have two persons identified as Jehovah.. We go to Acts chapter 5 and the Holy Spirit is referred to as "God!" So... We have 3 persons described as Jehovah and we know (deu 6:4).. Jehovah is ONE... That is the trinity. Father, Son, Holy Spirit. So..

I'll quote something from my friends site who is a Messianic Jew also and he explains how the trinity is NOT a gentile belief, it is actually taught in the Torah....

"Bereshis (Genesis) 19:24. Most English translations substitute Jehovah for LORD. If we read the verse correctly, it would read:
Then Jehovah rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah from Jehovah out of the heavens.
“Jehovah rained from Jehovah”? How many Jehovahs do we have? But my rabbi taught me that “echad” in the Shema means “one”! Actually “echad” is a united one.
“Yachid” means one."

" Isaiah 44:6 Again reading “Jehovah” as in the original Hebrew rather than substituting it with “LORD”.
Thus says Jehovah, the King of Israel, and His Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts, “I am the First and I am the Last; besides Me there is no God.”
Why do we have two Jehovahs?"

(His site is http://www.israelimission.org/ )

So in...
Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!
(Sh'ma Yis'ra'eil Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad.)

(Echad means UNITED ONE....YACHID means ONE... Yachid does not appear in Deu 6:4.... Echad does appear and it means "UNITED ONE")
The correct translation.. (By native Hebrew speakers, they will even admit this..)
So "Hear O Israel, JEHOVAH our God... Jehovah is UNITED"

Anyway.. Just remember, now you have facts IN the Bible.. To back up your belief Jesus is God.. You have undeniable evidence so.. Just keep that in mind no matter how upset you may get while speaking to them.. Remember to share this with them IN LOVE.... That is the key.. You have to make sure to be gentle and loving to them otherwise they will not receive it.. Just do heaps of praying before they come over and you will be fine and directed by the Holy Spirit...

Luke 21:15
for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist.


Ephesians 4:15
"speaking the truth in love"

Anyway .. There is another teaching that is absolute proof in the bible that first century Messianic Jews and Gentiles believed the Messiah is indeed God. But I think you have enough right now, if you are ever on Christian Chat I'd love to share that one with you. Take care.. I will be prying for you

[Graybeard]

Originally Posted by jcspartan

.......
I don't know this, but I was told the JWs have their own version of the Bible and some of the more problematic verses were reworded so associating Jesus with the Father is more difficult. But, they will usually let you refer to the KJ version in discussions with them.

Yes, I saw in her hand was "The New World Translation" and questioned her about it, she said that men in The Watchtower have translated it directly from Hebrew.

Thanks for the scriptures. Definition_Christ great breakdown...will take me a while to go through both posts and I'm sure there will be more to come.

Originally Posted by Graybeard

Yes, I saw in her hand was "The New World Translation" and questioned her about it, she said that men in The Watchtower have translated it directly from Hebrew.

Thanks for the scriptures. Definition_Christ great breakdown...will take me a while to go through both posts and I'm sure there will be more to come.

No problem man, I hope it helps you. For the NWT being "directly translated" though ..

The NWT is not translated from any Greek or Hebrew scholars nor would a bible scholar agree to the text IN there..

They actually change the NWT very often (like years and year apart).. But if you are CHANGING the bible.. I mean no need to explain anymore.. But I wouldn't bring this up it would be taken as a direct offence and probably lead to an argument.

(Source http://www.lookinguntojesus.net/20021013.htm )

Originally Posted by Definition_Christ

No problem man, I hope it helps you. For the NWT being "directly translated" though ..

The NWT is not translated from any Greek or Hebrew scholars nor would a bible scholar agree to the text IN there..

They actually change the NWT very often (like years and year apart).. But if you are CHANGING the bible.. I mean no need to explain anymore.. But I wouldn't bring this up it would be taken as a direct offence and probably lead to an argument.

(Source http://www.lookinguntojesus.net/20021013.htm )

I second that--good break down of the JWs and supporting scripture

JW's have been conditionded to redirect all conversation to the NWT, so you have to use it to change their views. You can use the KJV when you
speak to them but, they'll always refer to the NWT. So the first thing to do is define terms. You can be talking about a position on doctrine, but
if you don't know what they mean you'll never reach a conclussion.

Another thing that JW's do is to switch subjects when you make a valid point. This will be done to keep you off guard. Make sure that you
keep on point. There's a great book by Walter Martin called the Kingdom of the cults that will help give you alot information, not only about
JW's but many other religions.

Remember to pray and ask the Holy Spirit to give you the words.

These people are lost, but believe you are. and in their hearts they believe what their saying.

God Bless, Dan

[Graybeard]

Came across this site run by an ex JW....has a wealth of information, so together with your posts I think I will be better equipped.
http://www.towerwatch.com/

[crazy94]

hi!!....anybody there?

[Peacefulcrusader]

Hi Graybeard. I'll give you some passages which prove that Jesus Christ is indeed God:

---
Isaiah 9:6: "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

Firstly, this child and son is Jesus, that all would agree to. Secondly, is clearly states that Jesus will be called Mighty God and Everlasting Father. As such, I believe that there is no need for further discussion on this part. Thirdly it's possible to see the whole "Trinity" in these verses. The "Wonderful Councelor" is The Holy Spirit (John 16:7,13). The "Prince of Peace" is Jesus Christ himself (Gen 49:10, called "Shiloh", or "The Peaceful One", and in the literal Norwegian version; "The Prince of Peace"). The "Everlasting Father" is well, The Father. The last part, "Mighty God" is pretty clear as well.
---

---
Mark 2:5-12.

The passage speaks of Jesus who forgives a man of sins and heals him. Only God can do that!
---

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Compare Revelation 1:8 with 22:13. God and Jesus speak the same about their self-identification.
---

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John 20:28.

Thomas calls Jesus "God". Jesus accepts it.
---

Well, I could've given many more passages, but these should probably be sufficient, even for a Jehova's Witness...

[watchmen]

This should be a poll, but i say yes.

[Graybeard]

Originally Posted by Peacefulcrusader

Hi Graybeard. I'll give you some passages which prove that Jesus Christ is indeed God:
...

thanks, they will be of good use

Originally Posted by watchmen

This should be a poll, but i say yes.

My first post explains the intention of the thread....and, well, I'm not really interested how many believe or not.

[greatkraw]

The underlying issue is that of the Trinity.

It took the Church 400 years to sort that one out.

Until then the Arians held sway.

JWs are modern day Arians.

[MahogonySnail]

JW's aren't strictly Arian though, because JW's don't believe that Christ should be worshipped, but Arius did, for example.

The Arians did not hold sway as far I recall, Arianism only came in the early 3rd centuary and it caused enough controversy to form a council. Well, Arianism was found to be unorthodox, and here we are today.

[tryingtofindhim]

Originally Posted by Graybeard

This I know has been debated in another thread "Did God die on the cross." but I would like some scriptures only on this subject. What got me thinking on this (I am in no way judging them) was that two very lovely ladies came knocking on my door the other day, yes they where Jehovah's Witness's. During the short conversation the topic of Jesus is God came up where they disagreed, I said there are many scriptures that point to this, she replied that in all her 27yrs of being a Jehovah's Witness she has never heard or seen this in the Bible. (although she did contradict herself a while later saying that whenever she asks Christians to show her this in the Bible that they cannot) I could not think straight at the time as I had just woken up from a late night and said I will phone her with scripture. However, some scriptures that where given in another thread when I read them over appeared to be a bit vague and other scripture appear to contradict them.

My sister is jehovah Witness. Basically they mistranslate John 1:1 and say he is "a god" not God. If you would like I could give you the reasoning she has given me for that.

[Graybeard]

Originally Posted by tryingtofindhim

My sister is jehovah Witness. Basically they mistranslate John 1:1 and say he is "a god" not God. If you would like I could give you the reasoning she has given me for that.

I know, she also said we all are gods.

[Peacefulcrusader]

Originally Posted by Graybeard

thanks, they will be of good use

That's good to hear. God bless.

[tryingtofindhim]

Originally Posted by Graybeard

I know, she also said we all are gods.

no actually she didn't. I think you are getting your cults mixed up.

[Graybeard]

Originally Posted by tryingtofindhim

no actually she didn't. I think you are getting your cults mixed up.

yes, actually she did, she was speaking to me, why would I get "my" cults mixed up because that is what she said!