The Letter to the Romans...
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H
To Elin, I have no power to exclude you, since this is not my thread. I think the control is in the hands of the one who created the threat. Whatever, I don't mind your being here; But, I will remind the class that your teaching is heresy and is not true to the Bible. You keep refusing to learn the obvious meaning of words. You are a part of the great apostasy; The Cultic Fundamentalists of today. Love to all, Ptr. Doug
H
The "Gospel of Christ is the power of God to salvation"1:16. The word "POWER" is "the ability to do work", God makes us new creatures, with a new heart, a new nature, by regeneration by the new birth. Try to relate this fact to verses, through out the Bible, that teach this fact. Paul is thinking of Regeneration, not Justification. Please think on the powerful transformation that God does in our hearts. Please quote verses on Regeneration. Love to al Ptr. Doug
H
To Hapzibah, No, my views are not 100% with Jehshua, but I was giving him the benefit of a doubt, waiting for him to develope more on Romans. to see where he really was. when he saw Romans 9 on "election" I think he didn't want the intense study to deal with election. and he opt out to go to his first love, "perfectionism" in the Christian life. This is my gut feeling and Jehshua is welcome to correct me. I want to nail down the first doctrine of Ch one before getting to the more emotional views on the sovereignty of God in election. Chapter one is the Sovereignty of God in Regeneration, and it is based upon God's sovereignty on the total ,His total plan of salvation given in Rom.829-30. No theologian, I know, has given God His Right to teach us Romans, as He wrote it. All are confused. Love to all, Ptr. Doug
Doug
I read through the 66 pages and that was not the impression l got for why he stopped. It seemed to me that because people were not sticking to his formula, it just got out of hand with all of the arguing and it was going to take far too long for him to continue with his task. I did not get the impression that he was not secure in his theology.
Rather than continue here, don't you think it would be better to start again using his writings as far as they continue? It is a bit much to have to go through those 66 pages. Your aim us to disprove perfectionism isn't it?
I read through the 66 pages and that was not the impression l got for why he stopped. It seemed to me that because people were not sticking to his formula, it just got out of hand with all of the arguing and it was going to take far too long for him to continue with his task. I did not get the impression that he was not secure in his theology.
Rather than continue here, don't you think it would be better to start again using his writings as far as they continue? It is a bit much to have to go through those 66 pages. Your aim us to disprove perfectionism isn't it?
Romans 1:1-6
Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures, concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord, through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations, including you who are called to belong to Jesus Christ,
What Paul's Saying...
So Paul introduces himself, acknowledges his calling, and our calling to preach “the gospel” to the nations which was promised in the Old Testament (what he calls Holy Scripture); and the gospel is “we have received grace from Christ for obedience of faith”. So grace is defined as the power to be obedient...a power that is Christ’s alone.
If you agree with this interpretation, “like”.
If you disagree with this interpretation, post an alternative for others to agree with.
If you’d like further elaboration of an interpretation, feel free to ask.
What exactly was Paul's calling? It says that it was to preach the 'good news' which was the same message given to the prophets of old. What was the message the prophets received and gave to the children of Israel, God's chosed ones? Right at the start of this study, I propose that Paul's calling was not to preach to those who are not already in a covenant relationship with their Maker. He says in 16-17 So he is declaring who the message is for ie the Jew and Greek, and the two categories he later explains are not the physical understanding we normally assume, but the spiritual standing. The Jew is the one who has been circumcised in the heart, and the gentile, who has not. Two classes of people in the church, for his letter is addressed to the church in Italy and he is going to show how the power to be obedient works out. The prophets of old, declared to the people who were in covenant with God that they were not being obedient as they should and called them to repent. Now Paul is going to show them that the power to be obedient must come from the grace that is available to us through Jesus Christ alone and not through the efforts of man. Many believers make the mistake of trying to serve God with their flesh, even religious flesh and dedication to God. Paul is here to tell us that all flesh must be put to death.
So this is about holiness or the Holy Spirit who makes men holy. It is about God's way of making men able to be obedient to the extent that God requires. It is discipleship training for the church and for those who have been called by God as Paul has, to become saints or those who use the power of Christ for their obedience and not their own human efforts.
Please read the post " if anyone is in Christ he is a new creation"
It has been explained in clarity how our spirit, soul (mind, will and emotions) and body have been made righteous with God's righteousness.
We we can understand that Salvation is the work of God i.e by grace
This extract is taken from the book " Good news of great joy"
The entire book can be read online at goodnewsofgreatjoy.com
This book explains how regeneration, justification, sanctification are all works of God. We believe and inherit them
It has been explained in clarity how our spirit, soul (mind, will and emotions) and body have been made righteous with God's righteousness.
We we can understand that Salvation is the work of God i.e by grace
This extract is taken from the book " Good news of great joy"
The entire book can be read online at goodnewsofgreatjoy.com
This book explains how regeneration, justification, sanctification are all works of God. We believe and inherit them
H
The mystery of the Real Church of GOD, the Real "elect" people of GOD, is only revealed in the New Testament. And this eternal covenant is only spelled out, clearly, in Rom.8:29-30. All the other covenants, in the Bible, in the history of redemption are UNDER this ONE, GOD'S ETERNAL COVENANT OF GRACE, Rom.8:29-30, Heb.13:20 . LOVE to ALL, Ptr. Doug
So Paul introduces himself, acknowledges his calling, and our calling to preach “the gospel” to the nations which was promised in the Old Testament (what he calls Holy Scripture); and the gospel is “we have received grace from Christ for obedience of faith”. So grace is defined as the power to be obedient...a power that is Christ’s alone.
Romans 1:7
To all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
What Paul's Saying...
Paul then speaks this same grace & peace to the believers in Rome.
Paul defines further who is message is for; those who are called to be saints. He is going to bring a message that will lead them to repentance. They are church members who have not yet received the power to obey according to the degree that is required by God, and are serving Him without it, however sincere they are, but once they serve Him through His power, they will be saints.
Paul then speaks this same grace & peace to the believers in Rome.
Romans 1:8-15
First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is proclaimed in all the world. For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I mention you always in my prayers, asking that somehow by God's will I may now at last succeed in coming to you. For I long to see you, that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to strengthen you— that is, that we may be mutually encouraged by each other's faith, both yours and mine. I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that I have often intended to come to you (but thus far have been prevented), in order that I may reap some harvest among you as well as among the rest of the Gentiles. I am under obligation both to Greeks and to non-Greeks, both to the wise and to the foolish. So I am eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome.
What Paul's Saying...
Paul desires to meet with them in person so they can strengthen each other’s faith and so he can preach “the gospel” to them face to face...but obligations have delayed him.
First of all, Paul confirms that he recognises them as true believers, he is not going to tell them to come to Christ for forgiveness. And he confirms that they are seeking to follow Him as acknowledged by others. But he has a message for them; good news which will be very productive for them and will lead to encouragement for them both because of the results which his message will produce. He gives them the sugar before the medicine because he is going to speak very strongly next which will lead them to repentance. He is going to show them that they are not yet living the life in the Spirit and that God's judgment is against them.
H
In Romans 1:11-15, Paul's purpose is to help mature the Christians and to win more lost sinners in Rome to Jesus Christ. there is no sense of judgment upon the Christians in Rome. In Acts 1 the 11 disciples and the others, were told to wait in Jerusalem for the fresh empowering of the Holy Spirit, this outpouring of the Spirit would just be a new beginning for them on the day of Pentecost in their already ministry lives, their waiting was not a judgment on them. They were obedient to Jesus' commands to witness and heal the sick for all the yrs that Jesus lived among them, Each Christian is given different gifts, for the work of the ministry. Some, like Paul, were appointed by God to give these gifts by the laying on of his hands. Paul's intent is to show what real salvation is and to exhort those who don't have the new birth yet, to seek God for it; thus he would be giving assurance to the real Christians of their true salvation experience. Love to all, Ptr. Doug
Hello Doug
Thank you for your reply.
It is the judgment of God that leads man to repent. The judgment that came before the baptism in the Spirit for the disciples, can be assumed to be the same as that which assailed Peter after he had denied Jesus, by one glance from His Lord which led to his severe distress when he realised what he had done in his denials and abandonment. In His hour of need, they all abandoned Him.They had left their Saviour and were hidden away ashamed, but He came and breathed life into them. We can imagine their feelings when He appeared. They must have fallen down on their faces and cried out 'O wretched man that I am'. He breathed the Holy Spirit on to them and forgave them so they were able to face the world again and go on to gather in the upper room.
Peter also brought this message of repentance later, after the outpouring, to the waiting crowd, whom he accused of the same fault. They had also crucified Jesus like the fleeing apostles. They had not stopped the Roman soldiers from taking Him and had even cried out that they crucified Him.
We also crucify Jesus in our hearts when we fall from our first love for Him and become lukewarm regarding sin and stop hating it as God does. We become lax in our obedience and instead of going on to be soldiers of the cross, we depend on the fleshly mind of our understanding of what is required of us.
Before man will be in the deeply repentant state that is required before he can be transformed into the likeness of Christ, he must accept the judgement of God upon him. We see this judgement in the letters to the churches in Revelation. They were guilty of sin and must repent so that Jesus can come again to them and impart the power to obey..
Paul has a serious message for the believers in Rome, and it was the same message that the prophets delivered to those who were the people of God already. Repent.
The gift that Paul is speaking about is rarely found in these days because men think that they can continue in their sin natures, even improved and managed sin natures, and not be under God's judgment but we soon see in Paul's great epsitle that this is false. We see the evidence for this when it comes to interpreting Romans 6 7 and 8, which lay out the highway to holiness. We get the antinomians who say it is the normal Christian life to not be able to resist temptation, and the other camp who don't recognise sin when it is staring them in the face. At least the former are in touch with reality ie that they keep on commiting the same sins.
I will continue to give my alternative view, and will only continue past the first few chapters if others wish me to.
Thank you for your reply.
It is the judgment of God that leads man to repent. The judgment that came before the baptism in the Spirit for the disciples, can be assumed to be the same as that which assailed Peter after he had denied Jesus, by one glance from His Lord which led to his severe distress when he realised what he had done in his denials and abandonment. In His hour of need, they all abandoned Him.They had left their Saviour and were hidden away ashamed, but He came and breathed life into them. We can imagine their feelings when He appeared. They must have fallen down on their faces and cried out 'O wretched man that I am'. He breathed the Holy Spirit on to them and forgave them so they were able to face the world again and go on to gather in the upper room.
Peter also brought this message of repentance later, after the outpouring, to the waiting crowd, whom he accused of the same fault. They had also crucified Jesus like the fleeing apostles. They had not stopped the Roman soldiers from taking Him and had even cried out that they crucified Him.
We also crucify Jesus in our hearts when we fall from our first love for Him and become lukewarm regarding sin and stop hating it as God does. We become lax in our obedience and instead of going on to be soldiers of the cross, we depend on the fleshly mind of our understanding of what is required of us.
Before man will be in the deeply repentant state that is required before he can be transformed into the likeness of Christ, he must accept the judgement of God upon him. We see this judgement in the letters to the churches in Revelation. They were guilty of sin and must repent so that Jesus can come again to them and impart the power to obey..
Paul has a serious message for the believers in Rome, and it was the same message that the prophets delivered to those who were the people of God already. Repent.
The gift that Paul is speaking about is rarely found in these days because men think that they can continue in their sin natures, even improved and managed sin natures, and not be under God's judgment but we soon see in Paul's great epsitle that this is false. We see the evidence for this when it comes to interpreting Romans 6 7 and 8, which lay out the highway to holiness. We get the antinomians who say it is the normal Christian life to not be able to resist temptation, and the other camp who don't recognise sin when it is staring them in the face. At least the former are in touch with reality ie that they keep on commiting the same sins.
I will continue to give my alternative view, and will only continue past the first few chapters if others wish me to.
A few thoughts ago (in post #2) Paul said that the gospel is “grace from Christ to be obedient”. Now Paul says the gospel is “the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes”. So in context, the Power of God for Salvation IS the grace to be obedient...that is the power...offered to anyone who believes. And in it [in the grace to be obedient] the righteousness of God is found from faith, fulfilling scripture.
Romans 1:18-23
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
What Paul's Saying...
Unlike those who are found righteous in their obedience to God through the power of grace by faith in Christ (which is “the gospel message”), the unrighteous suppress this truth and worship idols instead of giving God glory. But they have *no excuse* for their unrighteousness because God makes his divine nature known by all that he has made.
Now the great apostle gets down to the nitty gritty and gives them the same message that led to the prophets being stoned and rejected. The anger of God, is upon them who already have known God. They were once wise, but now they became fools. They had fallen from their first love and their foolish hearts had now become darkened. By their very actions, ie the 'sinning Christian' suppress the truth that Christ came to save men from sin. They once received the light and God had shown them the truth but now they were in such darkness, that they led others astray by saying peace, peace, when there is no peace. The message is not to those who have never known God and never had the light. It is not for unbelievers.
His attributes which are invisible to the unbeliever, are only perceived by those who receive the light within them, ever since man was created. The evidence of it is inside the ones who have received this light, in their spirits so they have no excuse. The unbeliever however has not had the light revealed to him and have been forever in darkness.
The offer is to all who already believe but do not have the power to obey. The gift or grace (unmerited favour) will enable them to obey which will save them from their sin nature and put it to death (chapter 6). If a man sins then his sin nature or flesh is still active. Death means death. This is the message that the children of Israel hated. It causes men to gnash their teeth, that God's judgment is upon them and they need to repent when they think that they are good Christians (or Jews) when in fact they are living in their flesh or human minds instead of all inspiriation and obedience coming from the power of God unto salvation. In sum, they are not saved after all.
H
To Hepzibah. you are so confused, because you read into the Bible lies which are not their. It is the goodness of God that leads us to repent; Rom.2:4 The judgement of God only hardens our hearts to God. Rom.2:24,"...God gave them up to uncleanness" But in reality, it is only the direct POWER of God that save the sinner; This power is what causes the "circumcision" of heart in Rom2:29. Both Jew and Gentile must have a circumcised heart to be born of God. The natural revelation of God is for all to see,1:20, but when sinners turn their minds away from the truth, they are hardened by God. The Gospel .by itself will never save a soul, the power of God must save the sinner. Love to all, Hoffco