King James says women can be pastors

[oldhermit]

@ Old Hermit....Paul was "recognized" for writing 14 of the NT writings and of those books, 6 of them, including the books of Ephesians, Colossians, 2 Thessalonians, 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus are believed by modern day religious scholars and according to Wikipedia, to have been written by another author and not Paul himself. People don't like change for the most part. Paul's writings allowed many OT practices to remain unchanged including the status of women so why wouldn't Peter, a product of his male dominated society, argue with Paul? @Atomiku and Apostol2013....women didn't even receive a formal education beyond a certain age until the past few hundred years, maybe? As a result, if the bible refers to men frequently, which it does and as illustrated by your specific example, we, as a modern day audience, should attempt to understand the mindset of the writers at the time which was they were writing to a predominately male audience that could actually read the Bible. The religious scholars were men so they had the control and education. Explain to me this....why was a male and female child under the age of 5 worth different values according to the book of Leviticus? yet God loves us all equally? There shouldn't be a monetary value on any of us. We should all be the same. Some may argue that as the boy and girl got older, the values of boys increased more because they were able to work. Why the difference then from 0-5 years old? Are those infants/toddlers going to work? Well let me ask you this, if there were only men on earth, how long would the population survive without women to carry children? At the same token, men were always worth more shekels in the OT than women. Why? I personally believe that is a man made rule and God may have allowed it but I also believe He may not have agreed with it either. Jesus was and is the reason for change. This is why Jesus allowed women to follow Him during His ministry. Do you realize how radical it was for women to follow Jesus when they lived in a society that taught that women need to be at home? Most of those women would be viewed as prostitutes. Look at Mary Magdelene? There is no written proof that she was a prostitute yet she is viewed as a prostitute. Some argue that because her town was noted for ill-repute, specifically sexual deviance, she was most likely a prostitute yet, there is no proof she actually was. Furthermore, she is quoted in the NT to have financed Jesus's ministry. How can a prostitute finance the Lord's ministry? Where did she get the money if she had to stay at home? We don't know and they are just questions to ponder over.

I did not ask you why religeous scholars accept Paul's writings as scripture. I asked you why does the apostle Peter refer to the writings of Paul as scripture on the same par with all other scripture? It is very clear that you do not understand Paul's writings.

 

[Victoria72]

That is a loaded question because scholars are divided with the belief that the NT writers actually believed that what they were writing would actually be a part of Scripture and I'm not sure either. This is one issue I am on the fence with and don't know for sure. Therefore, if you believe that the NT writers believed that what they were writing was a part of Scripture, then you would have to believe that Peter and Paul believed that their own writings would be a part of Scripture. If you believe that the NT writers were solely referring to OT Scriptures when you consider 2 Peter 3: 15-16, then you would have to believe that all of the NT writers were referring to the OT alone as being Scripture and not their own writings as well.

 

[oldhermit]

That is a loaded question because scholars are divided with the belief that the NT writers actually believed that what they were writing would actually be a part of Scripture and I'm not sure either. This is one issue I am on the fence with and don't know for sure. Therefore, if you believe that the NT writers believed that what they were writing was a part of Scripture, then you would have to believe that Peter and Paul believed that their own writings would be a part of Scripture. If you believe that the NT writers were solely referring to OT Scriptures when you consider 2 Peter 3: 15-16, then you would have to believe that all of the NT writers were referring to the OT alone as being Scripture and not their own writings as well.

Then why does Peter call Paul's writings scripture? There is nothing loaded about this question. Was Peter, who was an inspired apostle wrong about Paul's writings? Had he been deceived? Did he lie? Or, does Peter under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit declare Paul's writing as scripture?

 

[Victoria72]

2 Peter 3: 15-16....."and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation-as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures".

To answer your questions........what Scriptures was Peter referring to even if you want to accept the argument that they both believed they were writing the NT Scriptures? If six of the 14 Scriptures today that were supposedly written by Paul are considered to not have been written by Paul according to the majority of modern day, religious scholars and still other writings of Paul are questionable, what Scriptures was Peter referring to? Was Peter privy to all of Paul's writings?

Pope's, under the authority of the Holy Spirit, have changed their views about religious dogma throughout the years. Were they lying? What kind of question is that? People make mistakes or people's comments may be in reference to specific information and not what we assume. Pastor's, under the guidance of God have made mistakes. Look at Moses.....Moses was a very holy man that supposedly wrote the first five books of the OT. Do you really think God inspired him to tell everyone to stone another human being to death if they were caught in certain sinful acts which is a direct violation of one of the 10 Commandments or did Moses feel that was the best way to punish someone caught in a sinful act? The Commandment "thou shall not kill" should really be "thou shall not murder". This one word is a word that was lost in translation so some bibles say "thou shall not kill" and others say "thou shall not murder". Killing is technically ok but murder is not because it is premeditated and with malice. Therefore, is stoning another human being to death murder or killing? It sounds like murder to me. People make mistakes. Things get lost in translation. Scribes that thought they were doing good by adding information to the Bible created debates today because those additions are considered interpolations today. Women needing to be silent in the church is a perfect example of an interpolation (1 Corinthians 14: 34-35).

I question things and I believe God provides me with insight when I do and I will continue to question whether or not women should be pastors. I personally believe they should.

 

[dcontroversal]

If this is true, why does the apostle Peter refer to the writings of Paul as scripture on the same par with all other scripture?

Not to mention that Paul was inspired by God to write what was written! Anyone who disagrees with the word of God by default disagrees with God!

 

[Victoria72]

Even though there are interpolations, words get lost in translation and many of Paul's writings are questionable because they may not have been written by him, we, as Christians need to accept every word in the Bible? I don't agree with that. Paul was inspired by God but he was also a human being that made mistakes.

 

[dcontroversal]

Even though there are interpolations, words get lost in translation and many of Paul's writings are questionable because they may not have been written by him, we, as Christians need to accept every word in the Bible? I don't agree with that. Paul was inspired by God but he was also a human being that made mistakes.[/QUOTE]

If that is the case then the bible has many errors, and if many errors what then can be trusted? How can we know if what we are reading is true or false. People who disagree with the scriptures because they are unwilling to accept the truth use statements like what you just used. The Bible stands as a whole or it falls as a whole! And if it is full of (errors) then it is no more valuable than the paper it is written on. Women have a very special, honored position and or places of service within the kingdom of God, pastoring a church is not one of them!

 

[kingerik]

Kingeric the Bible says the women will bring the men around with their GOOD BEHAVIOUR not GOOD TEAHCINGs... You assume to much and take the meaning of the Bible completely away with your assumptions... Again Priscilla was NOT a techer with words but with service and good behaviour... If she was a preacher/teacher. She would have been rebuked to be quiet, since she was not she was a GOOD GODLY woman... Acting in this fashion.... In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
1Ti 2:10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Thus Paul did not mention she was a loud woman, but a SHAMEFACED one....

i just explained that whole verse.... go back and read it again...got to think about context...

 

[Apostol2013]

@ Old Hermit....Paul was "recognized" for writing 14 of the NT writings and of those books, 6 of them, including the books of Ephesians, Colossians, 2 Thessalonians, 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus are believed by modern day religious scholars and according to Wikipedia, to have been written by another author and not Paul himself. People don't like change for the most part. Paul's writings allowed many OT practices to remain unchanged including the status of women so why wouldn't Peter, a product of his male dominated society, argue with Paul? @Atomiku and Apostol2013....women didn't even receive a formal education beyond a certain age until the past few hundred years, maybe? As a result, if the bible refers to men frequently, which it does and as illustrated by your specific example, we, as a modern day audience, should attempt to understand the mindset of the writers at the time which was they were writing to a predominately male audience that could actually read the Bible. The religious scholars were men so they had the control and education. Explain to me this....why was a male and female child under the age of 5 worth different values according to the book of Leviticus? yet God loves us all equally? There shouldn't be a monetary value on any of us. We should all be the same. Some may argue that as the boy and girl got older, the values of boys increased more because they were able to work. Why the difference then from 0-5 years old? Are those infants/toddlers going to work? Well let me ask you this, if there were only men on earth, how long would the population survive without women to carry children? At the same token, men were always worth more shekels in the OT than women. Why? I personally believe that is a man made rule and God may have allowed it but I also believe He may not have agreed with it either. Jesus was and is the reason for change. This is why Jesus allowed women to follow Him during His ministry. Do you realize how radical it was for women to follow Jesus when they lived in a society that taught that women need to be at home? Most of those women would be viewed as prostitutes. Look at Mary Magdelene? There is no written proof that she was a prostitute yet she is viewed as a prostitute. Some argue that because her town was noted for ill-repute, specifically sexual deviance, she was most likely a prostitute yet, there is no proof she actually was. Furthermore, she is quoted in the NT to have financed Jesus's ministry. How can a prostitute finance the Lord's ministry? Where did she get the money if she had to stay at home? We don't know and they are just questions to ponder over.

I am going to speak from mMy heart I have a heart for women men all in fact no matter of their standing but , I am studying the women part extensively , I am even going to fast for God to communicate with me I know he will to give me the answer towards this issue , I would allow women to pastor in my church if it was permisibal but I will bend knees because just like Jesus he seeks hasting righteousness and with mercy yet stands stern on sin concerning salvation , Jesus adheres to the Father and does nothing of his own ,but the will of the Father , I am a true disciple from the heart and will seek the right things to do and soon I will have an answer to this issue in complete accordance to the will of the Father in Jesus forever be His glory we will defend it , with our lives as living examples

 

[Apostol2013]

Paul was different from the twelve for the twelve are distinct and unique , paul was the first of the office to the gentiles eventually there is no difference between Jew Greek or whosoever it be as we were dead with Christ we are dead to the rudiments of this world . now we are quickened by his Spirit birthed into an everlasting promise of his Spirit ,For Christ came to testify of the Spirit in the countenance of the Spirit of the Father proclaiming the Kingdom Of The Spirit of the Father a way of life that is eternal in the very image of the Father which we will adhere in his likeness and image

 

[oldhermit]

Even though there are interpolations, words get lost in translation and many of Paul's writings are questionable because they may not have been written by him, we, as Christians need to accept every word in the Bible? I don't agree with that. Paul was inspired by God but he was also a human being that made mistakes.

Would you say the same thing about any other NT writer? Would you make the same claim about the things Peter or John wrote, after all they too are only men. The point is this; Scripture is without error because its origin is the mind of God, not the mind of man. If you think the translational errors that exist are of any particular consequence then perhaps you can enlighten us as the the errors that exist in comparison to the manuscripts from which they were taken.

The bottom line is that Paul was an apostle chosen so by the Lord himself.
Everything Paul wrote is scripture on the same pare with all other scripture.
There is nothing contradictory between the things written by Paul and those written by any of the other NT writers.
You despise Paul because of what he wrote. Since what he wrote does not agree with your understanding of ethics or sociology, you attempt to discredit his writings by calling into question the legitimacy of his apostleship. You judge scripture by the standard of your own reasoning. That is why you do not understand this book.

 

[phil112]

This is the third time this subject has been brought up. Why is this so important? I say as I did before: Are we trying to prove something that isn't clarified in scripture by trying to justify our desire?

I beg your pardon, but this is most certainly clarified in the scripture.

 

[phil112]

What is a preacher/pastors duties? Why to preach the word of God, of course!
And the word of God is to be used for reproof and/or correction, if necessary.
2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[SUP] [/SUP]That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
[SUP] [/SUP]
What duty does HE have to the congregation?
To reprove and/or rebuke, if necessary.
2 Timothy 4:1-5
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
[SUP] [/SUP]Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

Paul was very clear, and remember, he got his gospel from Christ because he(Paul) was picked by God before he was born.
This. by God's gospel, is not a womans place. VERY CLEAR!

1 Timothy 2:11-13

Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

 

[Victoria72]

Would you say the same thing about any other NT writer? Would you make the same claim about the things Peter or John wrote, after all they too are only men. The point is this; Scripture is without error because its origin is the mind of God, not the mind of man. If you think the translational errors that exist are of any particular consequence then perhaps you can enlighten us as the the errors that exist in comparison to the manuscripts from which they were taken.


The bottom line is that Paul was an apostle chosen so by the Lord himself.
Everything Paul wrote is scripture on the same pare with all other scripture.
There is nothing contradictory between the things written by Paul and those written by any of the other NT writers.
You despise Paul because of what he wrote. Since what he wrote does not agree with your understanding of ethics or sociology, you attempt to discredit his writings by calling into question the legitimacy of his apostleship. You judge scripture by the standard of your own reasoning. That is why you do not understand this book.

@ Old Hermit......I'm on this site to learn and share. In reference to your comment about Scripture being without error, that is in reference to original Scriptures only. We have copies and no person on this earth has an original copy. As a result, errors did/do occur both in the OT and NT because of translation issues and interpolations, to name a couple. You also mentioned that "Paul wrote scripture on the same pare with all other scripture" but you are failing to consider to issues....First and again, is it the original documents that are without error, not the copies and two, many of his writings are questionable if he wrote them.

What he wrote doesn't agree with my understanding of ethics or Christianity. Furthermore, it contradicts the actions carried out by some of the women in the Bible, particularly the NT. For example, if Mary Magdalene did what she was supposed to do as a woman and according to the OT, she wouldn't have followed Jesus in His ministry but she did! Women, according to Jewish customs, were not allowed to speak to men in public, nevermind follow them. Church officials discredited Mary Magdalene by calling her a prostitute when there wasn't any proof and these are the same leaders that I'm supposed to turn to for guidance? She also stayed with Jesus at the cross when all the other disciples left with the exception of John. She witnessed to Jesus's rising from the dead when a woman's testimony wasn't even considered valid at the time. She witnessed and TOLD people. Paul states that women need to be quiet and submissive! Matthew 28: 5-8...."But the angel answered and said the THE WOMEN, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. He is not here: for He is risen, as He said. Come, see the place where the Lord Lay. And GO QUICKLY AND TELL HIS DISCIPLES THAT HE IS RISEN FROM THE DEAD, and indeed He is going before you into Galilee; there you will see Him. Behold, I have told you". Maybe you don't understand, OldHermit.

 

[Victoria72]

What is a preacher/pastors duties? Why to preach the word of God, of course!
And the word of God is to be used for reproof and/or correction, if necessary.
2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

What duty does HE have to the congregation?
To reprove and/or rebuke, if necessary.
2 Timothy 4:1-5
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

Paul was very clear, and remember, he got his gospel from Christ because he(Paul) was picked by God before he was born.
This. by God's gospel, is not a womans place. VERY CLEAR!

1 Timothy 2:11-13

Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

The book of Timothy is regarded by most modern day scholars to not have been written by Paul. If it wasn't written by Paul, then who was it written by and was that person inspired by the Holy Spirit when the 1 & 2 Timothy was written? If the writer wasn't Paul or anyone that is known, why is it in the Bible and why are we to believe that the person who wrote it was inspired by the Holy Spirit?

 

[phil112]

The book of Timothy is regarded by most modern day scholars to not have been written by Paul. If it wasn't written by Paul, then who was it written by and was that person inspired by the Holy Spirit when the 1 & 2 Timothy was written? If the writer wasn't Paul or anyone that is known, why is it in the Bible and why are we to believe that the person who wrote it was inspired by the Holy Spirit?

I could care less what "modern day scholars" think. (Not trying to be rude, just dismissive of people that try to lessen the authority of God's word.) The writing style and content are aligned with Paul's character and the first verse says as much.

1 Timothy 1:1,2
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope; [SUP] [/SUP]Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Victoria72]

@ Phil112....why should you care what modern day scholars say because if you did, you would have to consider what is being said but because you don't, you have an excuse to continue believing your antiquated and oppressive beliefs about women.

 

[Victoria72]

Even though there are interpolations, words get lost in translation and many of Paul's writings are questionable because they may not have been written by him, we, as Christians need to accept every word in the Bible? I don't agree with that. Paul was inspired by God but he was also a human being that made mistakes.[/QUOTE]

If that is the case then the bible has many errors, and if many errors what then can be trusted? How can we know if what we are reading is true or false. People who disagree with the scriptures because they are unwilling to accept the truth use statements like what you just used. The Bible stands as a whole or it falls as a whole! And if it is full of (errors) then it is no more valuable than the paper it is written on. Women have a very special, honored position and or places of service within the kingdom of God, pastoring a church is not one of them!

I trust God, Jesus Christ, and The Holy Spirit!

 

[phil112]

@ Phil112....why should you care what modern day scholars say because if you did, you would have to consider what is being said but because you don't, you have an excuse to continue believing your antiquated and oppressive beliefs about women.

Chuckle! You really think God needs to catch up with us hip modern day folk? LOL

Ecclesiastes 1:9The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.


God is the one that made us different. I take no sorrow or glory in being a man. It is simply who I am, and in the next life we will have no gender. But in this life, man is not woman and woman has not the same ability as man, nor man as woman. Just a simple fact, madam.

Isaiah 3:12As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.

 

[Victoria72]

@ phil112.....we obviously don't agree so I will let it rest. I just read another thread where someone posted an article asking why, as Christians, do we argue about issues when we all have the same goal which is to know, love and serve the Lord and one of the answers is pride. Jesus also said that if people don't listen to you, wipe the dust off of your feet and move on. Earlier today, I was extremely discouraged because I came to this site to find answers yet I seem to get the same feedback that I need to be quiet, submissive, can't preach, etc., because the Bible says so even though Jesus, through His actions, said otherwise and some of the books of the Bible are questionable, never mind the issue of translations. According to Ecclesiastes, there is a season for everything and maybe my season now is to just listen and offer support. God is good.