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Thread: King James says women can be pastors

  1. #61
    Senior Member phil112's Avatar
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    Default Re: King James says women can be pastors

    Quote Originally Posted by Victoria72 View Post
    @ phil112.....we obviously don't agree so I will let it rest. I just read another thread where someone posted an article asking why, as Christians, do we argue about issues when we all have the same goal which is to know, love and serve the Lord and one of the answers is pride. Jesus also said that if people don't listen to you, wipe the dust off of your feet and move on. Earlier today, I was extremely discouraged because I came to this site to find answers yet I seem to get the same feedback that I need to be quiet, submissive, can't preach, etc., because the Bible says so even though Jesus, through His actions, said otherwise and some of the books of the Bible are questionable, never mind the issue of translations. According to Ecclesiastes, there is a season for everything and maybe my season now is to just listen and offer support. God is good.
    Victoria, I understand and sympathize with your frustration. I came here looking for fellowship and now find myself defending my position and belief in God, Christ, the bible itself, and other things. I simply believe in the bible as the inspired word of God, and I will not back down from that position. What I say will be supported and based on KJV scripture. You have spoken up with a very unbiblical view of men and women as the bible lays it out.
    All the modern scholars and women libbers in the world will not change my mind nor God's word. Sitting at the keyboard it is difficult at best, to judge ones attitude when they post, and sometimes I get rather aggressive defensively. When I do, most of the time the post has already been put up.
    For that, I offer my heartfelt apologies. I do not apologize for defending the word of God.

    God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
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  2. #62
    Victoria72
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    Default Re: King James says women can be pastors

    @ Phil.....Thank you and I apologize also if I seem offensive. I have questions with the Bible but that doesn't make me less of a Christian because I do. I believe people grow stronger in their journeys to know, love and serve God when they take the time to find the answers to their questions. I'm frustrated because it is not occurring in my time but I know God will give me the answers in His time. Thank you again.
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  3. #63
    Senior Member oldhermit's Avatar
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    Default Re: King James says women can be pastors

    Quote Originally Posted by Victoria72 View Post
    In reference to your comment about Scripture being without error, that is in reference to original Scriptures only. We have copies and no person on this earth has an original copy. As a result, errors did/do occur both in the OT and NT because of translation issues and interpolations, to name a couple.
    Yes, it is only the original manuscripts that are without error but, the translational differences that exist are easily determined because we still have an abundant collection of reliable manuscripts in the original language. Translational errors are easily found and easily corrected.

    All translations without exception have issues with translational errors. This is due to a number of reasons. Sometimes these variations reflect the bias of the translators, whether it is a translational comity or an individual as in the case of the Phillips translation or the Moffit translation or the Berkley translation or the McCord translation, etc. Sometimes it is due to the fact that there are some words in the Hebrew or the Greek languages that simply do not have an English equivalent. In such cases, the only thing that the translators can do is try to convey the meaning that the original word expresses. This can sometimes be subject to personal bias. Still, other times these variations are the result of differences between the ancient manuscripts themselves. These differences are the result of a number of possibilities such as fatigue, misspelling, poor lighting, line confusion or just simple carelessness on the part of the scribe who was copying the document. There are lots of reasons why the variants appear. Most linguistic scholars try very hard to uphold the integrity of the original languages. Oddly enough, this is especially true of those scholars who are nonbelievers. The reason is, they have no religious agendas nor any religious ax to grind. The only thing they care about is their reputation as a linguistic scholar. Therefore they are more concerned about getting it right than about defending any particular religious doctrine.

    You also mentioned that "Paul wrote scripture on the same pare with all other scripture" but you are failing to consider to issues.....First and again, is it the original documents that are without error, not the copies and two,
    The variants that exist among the ancient manuscripts are by and large of very little consequence. Most of the variants amount to nothing more than a misspelled word. There are very few variations that have any significant impact upon the meaning of a text.

    many of his writings are questionable if he wrote them
    All of the letter that are attributed to Paul with the exception of the book of Hebrews are accepted as Pauline by the vast majority of biblical scholarship and for very good reasons. Many of those who call into question Pauline authorship have no regard for the Bible as the word of God in the first place. Many of these a nothing more that secular scholars who view the Bible as nothing more that a piece of literary history. Quite frankly, what these "scholars" think of scripture is of no importance to me.

    What he wrote doesn't agree with my understanding of ethics or Christianity.
    What you are doing is using your own understand of ethics and Christianity as the standard by which you judges scripture. If scripture does not agree with your flawed episomology, you simply find some way to call into question the integrity of the scripture to discredit it. This is what you are doing with the writings of Paul. You have set your own understanding up as the metric for determining truth.

    Furthermore, it contradicts the actions carried out by some of the women in the Bible, particularly the NT. For example, if Mary Magdalene did what she was supposed to do as a woman and according to the OT, she wouldn't have followed Jesus in His ministry but she did! Women, according to Jewish customs, were not allowed to speak to men in public, never mind follow them.
    This is just complete nonsense. Jesus never bound himself to Pharisaic tradition nor did he hold other accountable to it. If you know anything about the ministry of Jesus, you should know that he routinely challenged Pharisaic traditions. Mary Magdalene was certainly not the only woman who openly and publicly followed Jesus. What makes you think that the fact that these women who followed Jesus is in any way in contrast to the prohibition of women's conduct in the assembly that Paul addresses in his epistles. There is absolutely not symmetry between the two examples.

    Church officials discredited Mary Magdalene by calling her a prostitute when there wasn't any proof and these are the same leaders that I'm supposed to turn to for guidance?
    Yes, there is no evidence to suggest she was a prostitute. Scripture only calls her a sinner. I really do not care what may have been behind the motives of the "leaders" who labeled her so. They mean nothing to me.

    She also stayed with Jesus at the cross when all the other disciples left with the exception of John. She witnessed to Jesus rising from the dead when a woman's testimony wasn't even considered valid at the time. She witnessed and TOLD people. Paul states that women need to be quiet and submissive! Matthew 28: 5-8...."But the angel answered and said the THE WOMEN, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. He is not here: for He is risen, as He said. Come, see the place where the Lord Lay. And GO QUICKLY AND TELL HIS DISCIPLES THAT HE IS RISEN FROM THE DEAD, and indeed He is going before you into Galilee; there you will see Him. Behold, I have told you". Maybe you don't understand, OldHermit.
    Again, what makes you think that the fact that telling the apostles of the resurrection of Jesus is in any way in contrast to the prohibition of women's conduct in the assembly that Paul addresses in his epistles.
    Last edited by oldhermit; January 16th, 2014 at 06:20 AM.
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  4. #64
    Victoria72
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    Default Re: King James says women can be pastors

    @ Old Hermit....We disagree but thank you for your input. If we disagree, there is no point in continuing the conversation.

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    Senior Member Apostol2013's Avatar
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    Cool Re: King James says women can be pastors

    As I keep studying I see the word stern as written I've been studying for many years and see the need for a strong family structure I feel for women but the word is stern but the scriptures also say that we will be like the angels with no distinction neither married or given into marriage . but like the angels a celestial body given by God , so this I leave to your minds to contrast and elaborate if we are heirs to the same promise "are we bound by the same rulings as the world perceives ? Or are we truly free indeed ? As if I am permitted to speak my mind I believe we are free indeed not to be in disorder but one accord
    18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God 10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

  6. #66
    Victoria72
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    Default Re: King James says women can be pastors

    @Apostol2013....I agree/disagree with you also but thank you for your input. No one likes change so when someone attempts to show others where there are flaws within the religious body, people turn their heads. The Pharisees killed our beloved Savior because He changed things! I know God had a purpose for me and I know that He put this in my heart for a reason. I just have to wait on Him for His next set of instructions.

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    Default Re: King James says women can be pastors

    I continue to refer to John MacArthur on this one. Because I whole heartedly believe he got this one right. And it supports the purpose for women that has been lived throughout many centuries. It is only in modern times that women suddenly became equals with men in practice. And through satanic influence of course. Women are meant to bear children and raise them. Not carry the burden of authority and public instruction as men do. Two distinct roles that overall compliment GOD's plan. And keep in mind that the role of bearing a child has a VERY significant purpose in relation to Eve's fall.

    Just go here to understand it better

    John MacArthur - I do not Allow a Woman to Teach... (1Timothy 2:12-15) - YouTube
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    Default Re: King James says women can be pastors

    Quote Originally Posted by didymos View Post
    It's cool.
    Just because men refuse to take that responsibility doesn't justify women from taking it (biblically speaking).
    Thats what I meant.

    This would have never held up under Balaam. Can the Donkey be blamed for his fear of GOd? it actually saved Balaam's behind. I don't believe the donkey sinned by speaking up to the prophet's madness in beating up on an innocent Donkey. It just shows that God uses anything willing to live.
    Let's go further....It is a shame that you should even stand up to a women and vice versa. This is where men need to stand up and bring truth so that we can have unity. Not by allowing a woman to be beaten by speaking a truth. By, how? repenting accepting the truth and doing what should be done according to scripture. Instead they accuse, point and make excuses. Isn't this how the enemy worked through man and his own body (the woman) from the beginning?

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    Default Re: King James says women can be pastors

    Also, allow me to use the point where Sephora circumcised Moses' son. Was she sinning to move in action to God's law to prevent death? Would it be fair to say that The judgment of mankind is his own neglect of what God requires? If God says do anything (it is always something He has done already), and it is FOR us that He requires it of US, not for His sake but mankind and to overthrow the works of the enemy and save man. When we obey it is then for His Name sake, because HIS word IS GOOD, Right and just. I have to concede, A woman pastor can end up being placed over men not taking their rightful place and a bad pastor is placed over a congregation who is disciplined for not knowing God for themselves. (Being good Bereans)

  10. #70
    Senior Member oldhermit's Avatar
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    Default Re: King James says women can be pastors

    Quote Originally Posted by as_i_am View Post
    Also, allow me to use the point where Sephora circumcised Moses' son. Was she sinning to move in action to God's law to prevent death? Would it be fair to say that The judgment of mankind is his own neglect of what God requires? If God says do anything (it is always something He has done already), and it is FOR us that He requires it of US, not for His sake but mankind and to overthrow the works of the enemy and save man. When we obey it is then for His Name sake, because HIS word IS GOOD, Right and just. I have to concede, A woman pastor can end up being placed over men not taking their rightful place and a bad pastor is placed over a congregation who is disciplined for not knowing God for themselves. (Being good Bereans)
    Do you believe then that the two examples you gave somehow nullify or overturn the prohibition given in both 1Cor 14 and 1Tim 2?
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    Default Re: King James says women can be pastors

    Quote Originally Posted by oldhermit View Post
    Do you believe then that the two examples you gave somehow nullify or overturn the prohibition given in both 1Cor 14 and 1Tim 2?
    It would not nullify them at all. It actually shows the reason why Paul had to explain why the men need to take their responsibility more seriously all the more. We are talking life and death, not a game as to who is power hungry. It is about life and Love.
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    Default Re: King James says women can be pastors

    Our flight manuals always had this tid bit in them...."Manuals provide the best available operating instructions for most circumstances, but no manual is a substitute for sound judgment"....Truth and understanding as well as love through God. Do keep in mind that these teachings are from another man, inspired by God I know, but still a man. Anyone can be inspired by God and our knowledge gained over many centuries has changed the view point slightly on our inspired understandings. I absolutely believe with all goodwill towards my belief out of love and truth think women should be able to do anything a man can do.

    Aside from that I can read timothy and find that when they use the word wife or wives I am understanding those words to really mean holy spirit.

  13. #73
    Senior Member phil112's Avatar
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    Default Re: King James says women can be pastors

    Quote Originally Posted by jag1977 View Post
    .................. Do keep in mind that these teachings are from another man, inspired by God I know, but still a man.
    So you're saying that, tho God "inspired" Paul, He didn't really okay Paul to say what he did?

    Anyone can be inspired by God and our knowledge gained over many centuries has changed the view point slightly on our inspired understandings.
    You believe in oral tradition trumping the bible? That is a damnable catholic doctrine, you know.

    I absolutely believe with all goodwill towards my belief out of love and truth think women should be able to do anything a man can do.
    Then you dismiss outright the simple fact that God made men and women different.

    Aside from that I can read timothy and find that when they use the word wife or wives I am understanding those words to really mean holy spirit.
    So you are sure that those poor dumb new testament writers didn't use the words they should have. Those pesky, mischevious, boys were just saying things to have fun with us.

    Do you have any idea how asinine the statements you just made are?
    If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

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    Default Re: King James says women can be pastors

    Quote Originally Posted by phil112 View Post
    So you're saying that, tho God "inspired" Paul, He didn't really okay Paul to say what he did?

    You believe in oral tradition trumping the bible? That is a damnable catholic doctrine, you know.

    Then you dismiss outright the simple fact that God made men and women different.

    So you are sure that those poor dumb new testament writers didn't use the words they should have. Those pesky, mischevious, boys were just saying things to have fun with us.

    Do you have any idea how asinine the statements you just made are?
    Do you have any idea how demoralizing and evil your biblical understanding and teachings are right now? Just can't let go of that image can you brother? I would take a woman as a pastor any day to steer clear of the things being taught of that chapter.

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    Default Re: King James says women can be pastors

    Quote Originally Posted by jag1977 View Post
    Do you have any idea how demoralizing and evil your biblical understanding and teachings are right now? Just can't let go of that image can you brother? I would take a woman as a pastor any day to steer clear of the things being taught of that chapter.
    You don't like what the bible teaches? Take it up with God, after all, He is the one that made the word flesh and inspired holy men to write it down. But hey, if it feels better to kill the messenger, go ahead.
    We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
    For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost
    If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

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    Default Re: King James says women can be pastors

    Nope sorry Christ did not write those verses. Inspired by God no doubt but corrupt and promoting his own agenda through that, yes also.

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    Senior Member phil112's Avatar
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    Default Re: King James says women can be pastors

    Quote Originally Posted by jag1977 View Post
    Nope sorry Christ did not write those verses. Inspired by God no doubt but corrupt and promoting his own agenda through that, yes also.
    Let me get this straight, as I don't want to misunderstand you: You are saying that God inspired corrupt scripture.....INCREDIBLE!
    I have never heard anything more blasphemous than that statement.
    If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

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    Default Re: King James says women can be pastors

    You are right inconsistency in translation are at times a tool of misdirection to support church doctrines.

    You might be interested to know, however, that distinction between clergy and laity is not supported by the scriptures at all.
    Jesus said:..but you do not be called Rabbi ..for one is your teacher whereas you are all brothers.

    As time went by, things changed.

    A class developed, known as the clergy, who reserved for themselves the privilege of preaching. (Acts 20:30) The clergy were a small minority of those calling themselves Christians. The great majority became known as the laity.
    While the laity have been taught that they have certain obligations, including the making of contributions for the upkeep of the clergy, most have become little more than passive listeners in the matter of preaching.


    Concerning the word di·a′ko·nos, D. Edmond Hiebert wrote in Bibliotheca Sacra: “It has been held that the term is a compound of the preposition [di·a′], meaning ‘through,’ and the noun [ko′nis], ‘dust,’ so that the term denotes one who hurries through the dust to carry out his service.

    The root idea then, is one who reaches out with diligence and persistence to render a service on behalf of others, in contrast to a person with authority, spiritual or otherwise.—1983, Vol. 140, p. 153.

    Since In Hebrew and Greek these words and their related forms are applied to both male and female, we can see the confusion leading to a gender struggle for authority in the churches, when in reality it's not about authority but a humble service to others.

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    Default Re: King James says women can be pastors

    You are right, absolute inerrancy is to be attributed to the written Word of God.
    This is true of the original writings, none of which are known to exist today.

    The copies of those original writings and the translations made in many languages cannot however lay claim to absolute accuracy, as if they had been inspired.
    There is solid evidence and sound reason for believing, however, that the available manuscripts of the Sacred Scriptures do provide copies of the written Word of God in "nearly" exact form, the points that are in question having little bearing on the sense of the message conveyed.

    However, above statement cannot be made concerning the translations we have today.


    For example in the case of the KJV it was not translated from the copies of the Hebrew and Greek mss but from the Bishops Bible, so is in actual fact is a translation from a translation.

    Additionally it was revised and improved numerous times. The committee of versions (1851)of the American Bible Society found 24.000 variations in six different edition for the KJV.

    Indeed had it been inspired none of these thing would be true.

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    Default Re: King James says women can be pastors

    Necro Thread - 3 Years Old

    Eleazar,
    Please don't resurrect threads that are 3 years old.

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