Many CC Discussions Could Be Solved With Antinomy.

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T

Tintin

Guest
#1
#1
I used to call these seemingly contradictory beliefs "Godly paradoxes", but Immanuel Kant's philosophical device the "antinomy" appears to be more relevant.

Antinomies occur when there are two truths presented in the Bible that seem to contradict each other. Things such as human responsibility and God's election, the command to pray and God's sovereignty, or Jesus' status as God-man can cause people to stumble in their faith or pursue bad theology. By choosing one truth over the other, you are forced to reject or reinterpret Scriptures to fit your view. It is important to understand the practical application of an antinomy. By faith you can accept both seemingly opposing ideas to be equally true and therefore grasp the message of the various texts of Scripture (Landis, Don. 2013 The Genius of Ancient Man, p.102).

Our Triune God is Absolute Truth, as is His Word, the Bible. If we believe those beliefs to be true, the truths revealed in the Bible that seem to be at odds with each other, must equally be true. Think about it.
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#2
#2
So who gets to decide this one? Who gets to decide when something is imbalanced?
 
T

Tintin

Guest
#3
#3
For example: The Bible reveals that God is sovereign but mankind were created with freewill. Therefore, God is sovereign but (most of the time) doesn't override humanity's free will. And yet, our freewill never overrides God's sovereignty.

Or do you mean, who determines such a thing in the CC discussion sense?
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#4
#4
Tintin said:
For example: The Bible reveals that God is sovereign but mankind were created with freewill. Therefore, God is sovereign but (most of the time) doesn't override humanity's free will. And yet, our freewill never overrides God's sovereignty.
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Isn't this your theology, but not someone elses?

I understand an antinomy. J. P. Moreland has spoken extensively, as well as I think Stuart McAlister. I can't remember the third guy who I've listened to on this. EDIT: yes I do now, It was Alistair Begg.

It's true, but the problem is very similar to the question of what does scripture teach. That's where people disagree, and the definining of what exactly is the antinomy is going to be is contigent upon that.

I think this is a great example of an antinomy:

[SUP]5 [/SUP]“Woe to the Assyrian, the rod of my anger,
in whose hand is the club of my wrath!
[SUP]6 [/SUP]I send him against a godless nation,
I dispatch him against a people who anger me,
to seize loot and snatch plunder,
and to trample them down like mud in the streets.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But this is not what he intends,
this is not what he has in mind;
his purpose is to destroy,
to put an end to many nations.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]‘Are not my commanders all kings?’ he says.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] ‘Has not Kalno fared like Carchemish?
Is not Hamath like Arpad,
and Samaria like Damascus?
[SUP]10 [/SUP]As my hand seized the kingdoms of the idols,
kingdoms whose images excelled those of Jerusalem and Samaria—
[SUP]11 [/SUP]shall I not deal with Jerusalem and her images
as I dealt with Samaria and her idols?’”

You would probably disagree.
 
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1

1still_waters

Guest
#5
#5
Yeah I like how the Bible teaches predestination, but it also says it's God's desire that all be saved.

The Calvinists try to impose their logic on this, and they come up with limited atonement.

The Arminians impose their logic on it and pretty much deny predestination. Well ok, they reverse engineer it into anything but predestination.

Good thoughts TinTin.
 
T

Tintin

Guest
#6
#6
jimmydiggs said:
Isn't this your theology, but not someone elses?

I understand an antinomy. J. P. Moreland has spoken extensively, as well as I think Stuart McAlister. I can't remember the third guy who I've listened to on this. EDIT: yes I do now, It was Alistair Begg.

It's true, but the problem is very similar to the question of what does scripture teach. That's where people disagree, and the definining of what exactly is the antinomy is going to be is contigent upon that.

I think this is a great example of an antinomy:

[SUP]5 [/SUP]“Woe to the Assyrian, the rod of my anger,
in whose hand is the club of my wrath!
[SUP]6 [/SUP]I send him against a godless nation,
I dispatch him against a people who anger me,
to seize loot and snatch plunder,
and to trample them down like mud in the streets.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But this is not what he intends,
this is not what he has in mind;
his purpose is to destroy,
to put an end to many nations.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]‘Are not my commanders all kings?’ he says.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] ‘Has not Kalno fared like Carchemish?
Is not Hamath like Arpad,
and Samaria like Damascus?
[SUP]10 [/SUP]As my hand seized the kingdoms of the idols,
kingdoms whose images excelled those of Jerusalem and Samaria—
[SUP]11 [/SUP]shall I not deal with Jerusalem and her images
as I dealt with Samaria and her idols?’”

You would probably disagree.
Click to expand...
Hmm... it seems to me that the Assyrian ruler thinks he's doing his own work but is actually doing God's bidding. That doesn't negate the fact that we have free will.
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#7
#7
Tintin said:
Hmm... it seems to me that the Assyrian ruler thinks he's doing his own work but is actually doing God's bidding. That doesn't negate the fact that we have free will.
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Then you have a very different definition of free will, one that is more just to keep the term than it is what it actually teaches as a theology. Humans make choices, but these choices are not free. Even Lutherans understand that one. Monergists n' all. ;)

Slave to sin, or a slave to righteousness.
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#8
#8
1still_waters said:
Yeah I like how the Bible teaches predestination, but it also says it's God's desire that all be saved.

The Calvinists try to impose their logic on this, and they come up with limited atonement.

The Arminians impose their logic on it and pretty much deny predestination. Well ok, they reverse engineer it into anything but predestination.

Good thoughts TinTin.
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I think just about everyone says the other guys impose their logic. I think it's better to just go to scripture, than to get into peripheral word games.
 
P

phil112

Guest
#9
#9
Tintin said:
I used to call these seemingly contradictory beliefs "Godly paradoxes", but Immanuel Kant's philosophical device the "antinomy" appears to be more relevant.

Antinomies occur when there are two truths presented in the Bible that seem to contradict each other. Things such as human responsibility and God's election, the command to pray and God's sovereignty, or Jesus' status as God-man can cause people to stumble in their faith or pursue bad theology. By choosing one truth over the other, you are forced to reject or reinterpret Scriptures to fit your view. It is important to understand the practical application of an antinomy. By faith you can accept both seemingly opposing ideas to be equally true and therefore grasp the message of the various texts of Scripture (Landis, Don. 2013 The Genius of Ancient Man, p.102).

Our Triune God is Absolute Truth, as is His Word, the Bible. If we believe those beliefs to be true, the truths revealed in the Bible that seem to be at odds with each other, must equally be true. Think about it.
Click to expand...
I don't think it is that complicated. The bible was written so the common man can understand doctrine. Prophecy, not so much. I have yet to encounter something that study/prayer wouldn't resolve.
Let's accept as a given that all bible students in a discussion have equal background, knowledge, and intelligence. Any dispute arises simply because of a refusal to set aside what one has learned, or been taught. Stiffnecked, is the term, I do believe.
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#10
#10
jimmydiggs said:
Then you have a very different definition of free will, one that is more just to keep the term than it is what it actually teaches as a theology. Humans make choices, but these choices are not free. Even Lutherans understand that one. Monergists n' all. ;)

Slave to sin, or a slave to righteousness.
Click to expand...

To which do you refer?


[TABLE="width: 550"]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Libertarian free will
[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]|
Compatibilist free will
|
[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]

  • Free will is affected by human nature but retains ability to choose contrary to fallen nature and desires
[/TD]
[TD]

  • Free will is affected by human nature but person cannot choose contrary to the fallen nature and desires
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

(source)
The vast majority who argue free will, argue libertarian free will. This position generally tends toward open-theism. The only way you could believe much of scripture is the compatabilist position. Though they call it free will, it really isn't free will in the philosophical sense (which is the origin of the term, it has no theological origin but rather is an import from the Enlightenment after being stamped out from pelagius' influence).
 
crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#11
Nov 24, 2012
30,706
3,650
113
#11
Sure we aren't talking 'paradox'...

a : a statement that is seemingly contradictory or opposed to common sense and yet is perhaps true

...rather than antinomy?

Edukate me :confused:
 
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4enlightment

4enlightment

Banned
#12
May 15, 2013
4,307
27
0
#12
I noticed that some human can analyze a certain situation, whether to do what is right, or wrong; but animals has to be trained to do what is right, or wrong. So basically humans can independently choose what direction they desire to go, and the animals just wander aimlessly.
 
Cobus

Cobus

Banned
#13
Feb 17, 2010
3,620
27
0
#13
Tinnie-man.... Man NEVER had a will. And man never will have one. Can you show me a verse that says man has free will? Sin is not a will of man, it is listening to Satan's will and do HIS WILL.... Holiness is not a will of man, it is listenng to God and DO HIS WILL. We only do one of two wills. Oh we may have a free choice, but that also has an end to ALL WHO ARE SAVED...


If you understand God and His salvation you will know that ALL Holy man are CAUSED (Forced) to do ONLY GOD'S WILL. And that is what the Bible teach. If God knows the names of the saved even before the earth was made, then the saved was DESTINED to be holy as God is Holy. And there is not ONE verse that contradicts this fact.


God WILL do as HE PLEASE, and nothng will change His mind. NOTHING. LEt me ask you this... I know the Bible says Moses rebuked God and God repented, but do you really thing a man can have God REPENT? See there are weird thngs in the Bible. but it takes KNOWLEDGE to discern and know the Truth.


How can God REPENT? That is just CRAZY! And if you wnat more things people lay at God's door I can give you plenty. I just know my Heavenly Father is truly a God and a PERFECT one that need NO MAN TO COUNCIL. Who of the creation will tell the creator what to do? MOSES? NEVER!


The clay has no say..... Do you understnad this? The CLAY (us) has no say (to the POTTER)
 
4enlightment

4enlightment

Banned
#14
May 15, 2013
4,307
27
0
#14
Philippians 1:22
If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know!

James 4:4
You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.

1 Peter 4:3
For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry.

2 Corinthians 12:6
Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say,

Freewill.
 
4enlightment

4enlightment

Banned
#15
May 15, 2013
4,307
27
0
#15
4enlightment said:
Philippians 1:22
If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know!

James 4:4
You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.

1 Peter 4:3
For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry.

2 Corinthians 12:6
Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say,

Freewill.
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I forgotten about this verse also,

Revelation 22:11
Let the one who does wrong continue to do wrong; let the vile person continue to be vile; let the one who does right continue to do right; and let the holy person continue to be holy.”
 
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phil112

Guest
#16
#16
Tintin, now if you are talking aboutantimony the metal, that would solve some arguments also. Why, you take a chunk of antimony, shape it like a hammer and.........:D
 
P

psychomom

Guest
#17
#17
Tintin said:
I used to call these seemingly contradictory beliefs "Godly paradoxes", but Immanuel Kant's philosophical device the "antinomy" appears to be more relevant.

Antinomies occur when there are two truths presented in the Bible that seem to contradict each other. Things such as human responsibility and God's election, the command to pray and God's sovereignty, or Jesus' status as God-man can cause people to stumble in their faith or pursue bad theology. By choosing one truth over the other, you are forced to reject or reinterpret Scriptures to fit your view. It is important to understand the practical application of an antinomy. By faith you can accept both seemingly opposing ideas to be equally true and therefore grasp the message of the various texts of Scripture (Landis, Don. 2013 The Genius of Ancient Man, p.102).

Our Triune God is Absolute Truth, as is His Word, the Bible. If we believe those beliefs to be true, the truths revealed in the Bible that seem to be at odds with each other, must equally be true. Think about it.
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a little kindness wouldn't hurt, either. :)

(you always manifest that, Tin--thanks. ♥)
 
T

Tintin

Guest
#18
#18
psychomom said:
a little kindness wouldn't hurt, either. :)

(you always manifest that, Tin--thanks. ♥)
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Um... not always, PsychoMom. I'm just as human as every other person. I have my moments of frustration and anger. But thanks for the encouragement. :)
 
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psychomom

Guest
#19
#19
Tintin said:
Um... not always, PsychoMom. I'm just as human as every other person. I have my moments of frustration and anger. But thanks for the encouragement. :)
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what?!?
you're not perfect??

and here i was considering adopting you! LOL
you don't think your parents would have a problem with that, do you? :cool:

okay, so i should have said i've never seen you speak unkindly.
and you corrected me in a very kind way.
adoption goes forward. :)

you know what's funny? (given how much we talk about the Nomos here...)

antinomy derives from the Greek words anti (against) and nomos (law). ;)

 
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