"trumpet call of God." The Rapture's call, or, the 7th trumpet sounding?

GreenNnice · Feb 7, 2014

So much said about this subject, but, I was reading from "Things To Come" and this thought hit me as I read.
The Lord leads

Sure, it's something that's already been talked about. But, is the talking all done, do we all agree that this 'trumpet call of God' is BEFORE the 7-year tribulation (70 weeks of Daniel)?

If not, then, let's discuss some more

I have a feeling, there's still a lot to discuss !

The Lord leads

Pray, come to this with an open mind and understanding of His Truth wanting said and told through you, His Spirit at work in you

My reasons for believing in the PRE-TRIBULATION rapture:

1. The Lawless One not yet revealed on Earth.

For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,… 2 Thessalonians 2:7-9

Is this lawless one immediately slain or does his terrible reign continue for some time, like, 7 years? Scripture say?

2. Christ speaks of a 'trumpet call of God' sounding, this seems more different than one of the seven trumpets. "Things to Come" states that God's trumpet sound would be singled out from the 7th trumpet blast described in Revelation 11.

----------------------------oo-----------------------------

Here is what happens when the 7th trumpet sounds in Revelation 11:

15The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become

the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,

and he will reign for ever and ever.”

16And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17saying:

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,

the One who is and who was,

because you have taken your great power

and have begun to reign.

18The nations were angry,

and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

19Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm.

Is Jesus said in this Rev. 11 passage to be appearing to the dead and undead on Earth, having come from the sky?

----------------------------oo-----------------------------

Here is what happens when the 'trumpet call of God' sounds in 1 Thessalonians 4:

Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Can these two events of 1 Thess. 4 and Rev. 11 really be speaking about the same event of end times? Notice the two underlined phrases, do they sound like the same trumpet to you sounding?

Why?
How?

And, let's throw in a 'who,' 'what,' 'when,' and, 'where' while we're at it

The coming of Christ, let's toss in a little etymology, too, to the eschatology

Here is the word for 'coming of Christ' in 1 Thessalonians 4:

[TABLE="class: maintext, width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3952 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]parousian[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]παρουσίαν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]coming[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-AFS[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Here is the word for coming of Christ in Revelation 11:

Oh, wait, there is NO phrasing of 'coming of Christ' in Revelation 11 . Interesting, isn't it

Christ is not 'appearing' anywhere in Rev. 11. He just, suddenly, takes over the world with His coming. Third coming?

Second coming would be The Rapture, no?

----------------------------oo-----------------------------

OK, that's enough of 'study' for you to pray over before responding with sound exegesis.

Let Him lead you to answers in our getting to this Truth of when the 'soon and very soon' is. When is when we see His appearing to us, we who are left on Earth alive, and, they, who are dead, are, 'in the twinkle of an eye' forever in His presence, from the coming of our Lord from heaven

Hizikyah · Feb 7, 2014

Re: "trumpet call of God." The Rapture's call, or, the 7th trumpet sounding? l

There are 7 trumps, on the 7th Messiah returns, there is no pre trib

1 Corinthians 15:50-54, "Now I say this brothers: that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Yahweh; neither does corruption inherit incorruption.Behold, I show you a secret truth: we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed--In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible will have put on incorruption, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will be brought to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory."

GreenNnice · Feb 7, 2014

Re: "trumpet call of God." The Rapture's call, or, the 7th trumpet sounding? l

Hizikyah said:

There are 7 trumps, on the 7th Messiah returns, there is no pre trib

1 Corinthians 15:50-54, "Now I say this brothers: that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Yahweh; neither does corruption inherit incorruption.Behold, I show you a secret truth: we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed--In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible will have put on incorruption, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will be brought to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory."

Is this 'last trumpet' you speak of the 'the trumpet call of God,' HisHiz

biscuit · Feb 7, 2014

Re: "trumpet call of God." The Rapture's call, or, the 7th trumpet sounding?

Agree with you. Just be ready for Mad Max and road warriors (aka) post trib warriors. LOL !!

Hizikyah · Feb 7, 2014

Re: "trumpet call of God." The Rapture's call, or, the 7th trumpet sounding? l

Hizikyah said:

GreenNnice said:

Yes 1 Thessalonians 4:16 "For Yahshua Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the malak gadol, and with the trumpet of Yahweh. And the dead in Messiah will be raised first."

And Shaul (Paul) says this happens at the LAST TRUMP, Messiah aslo gives us a time frame for this:

Mattithyah 24:29-31, "Immediately, but after the tribulation of those days will the sun be darkened, and the moon will not give her light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven; and then will all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His malakim with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of earth to the other."

doulos · Feb 7, 2014

Re: "trumpet call of God." The Rapture's call, or, the 7th trumpet sounding?

1Th 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Co 15:51-54 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Same event the we (which includes Paul in both cases or he would not have said we) is the believers! So can there be any more trumps after the last trump? If there were then it wouldn’t be the last trump and the verse would be a lie. There are no exceptions or qualifiers in 1Cor15:52 so this truly is the last trump, not the last trump except for (insert false belief) or the last trump of (insert false belief). It is the last, the final trump!

So what else do we know about the last trump of 1Cor15:52? We know that it is when death is defeated, that Christ reigns until death is defeated at which time Christ delivers the kingdom to His Father!
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:24-26 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

So is this the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] trump of Revelation? Sure it is and we know this because at the last trump of 1Cor15:52 and the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] trump of Revelation the kingdoms of this earth become God’s kingdom forever (remember Christ reigns until death is defeated at which time Christ delivers the kingdom to His Father)!

Rev 11:15-18 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

2Th 1:7-10 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presenceof the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Rev 10:6-7 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The last trump draws a line in the sand, the mystery of God, including the tribulation and the millennial kingdom and the final judgment on one side. On the other side of that line all that is left is the eternal kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ!

May God bless your studies!

GreenNnice · Feb 7, 2014

Re: "trumpet call of God." The Rapture's call, or, the 7th trumpet sounding? l

Hizikyah said:

Who is the 'malakim,' and, is that sound of a trumpet you highlighted there, HisHiz, from an angel blowing a 7th trumpet . I do see here where the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. So the dead that rise first and the alive who are on Earth at this rapture time of Christ's coming is 'His elect'?

Is this what you believe? But, where is this said in , and, what is that, Matthithyah 24: 29-31? You are referencing Acts 2, I believe, when Peter speaks of Joel's prophetic words to the people of the time following Jesus' ascension to heaven and the Holy Spirit 'gift' soon coming to the people everywhere.

Yes, you are Mattithyah = Acts 2 , I see now.

‘In the last days, God says,I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.’[SUP]c[/SUP]

OK, I see what you are saying here, there is, definitely, a time that the Lord is 'coming,' but, is this AFTER He's already appeared from the sky and saved 'the church' on Earth and those in the ground. Is this 'great and glorious' coming a different kind of 'coming,' as I presented the greek word 'parousia' that equals 'coming' in English language.

Let's look

Hmm, the word for 'coming' in Acts 2, or, Mattthyah as you read Acts 2 being is:

[TABLE="class: maintext, width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2064 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]elthein
[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἐλθεῖν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]coming[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-ANA

This great and glorious day of the Lord coming seems to be DIFFERENT than the time of the sound of God's trumpet sounding in 1 Thessalonians 4, no?

Does this make sense, HizHis? Malakim, I just read is a ,or, = 'messenger' or an 'angel,' which would, therefore, correlate that 'sound of a trumpet' as you highlighted in Acts 2 to REVELATION 11, where the ANGEL, or, messenger, angels are called, too, SOUNDS a trumpet

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

And, please, brothers and sisters in Christ, please, try to keep posts to a somewhat minimal length, the Lord leads, but, let's try and not just post a thousand verses , let's, as I said in the OP, use sound exegesis that the Lord leads you to expound on us all

Hizikyah · Feb 7, 2014

Re: "trumpet call of God." The Rapture's call, or, the 7th trumpet sounding?

Mattithyah 24:21-22, "For then will be great tribulation, such as has not come to pass since the beginning of the world to this time--no, nor ever will be. And unless those days were shortened, there would no flesh be saved; but for the elect's sake, those days will be shortened."

Mattithyah 24:29-31, "Immediately, but after the tribulation of those days will the sun be darkened, and the moon will not give her light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven; and then will all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His malakim with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of earth to the other."

1 Corinthians 15:50-54, "Now I say this brothers: that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Yahweh; neither does corruption inherit incorruption.Behold, I show you a secret truth: we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed--In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible will have put on incorruption, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will be brought to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory."

The pre-trib doctrine was never preached before around 1830, and is in place to get people to accept the anti-Messiah, they will be told "meeting Christ in the air is not literal, it's is a higher state of consciousness." The UN has been publishing magazines about thier comin "cosmic christ" for 40 years or something, called "Matreyu." (sp) You need to look into "PROJECT BLUE BEAM," they plan on using hologram technology to fake the second coming, and this is no cracker-jack attempt, it real and it's real serious. Many will fall for it if it happens.

Mattithyah 24:24-25, "For there will arise false messiahs and false prophets who will show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they would deceive the very elect. Behold, I have warned you beforehand!"

Here are some links

CNN Hologram TV First - YouTube

CNN Will I Am Hologram, First time on TV - YouTube

223 - The New Age Agenda - Amazing Discoveries TV

625 - The Coming Cosmic Christ / Secrets of the Ages - John Triplett - YouTube

Project Blue Beam By Serge Monast (1994)

After the Tribulation (Full Movie) - Alex Jones - YouTube

watcher2013 · Feb 7, 2014

Re: "trumpet call of God." The Rapture's call, or, the 7th trumpet sounding?

greenNnice,

here's a short presentation about the rapture... please let me know what you think[video=youtube;ygDKE9TOFtw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygDKE9TOFtw[/video]

watcher2013 · Feb 7, 2014

Re: "trumpet call of God." The Rapture's call, or, the 7th trumpet sounding?

and here's a link about the angel sounding the 7th trumpet
[video=youtube;QB-Air3oP7o]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QB-Air3oP7o[/video]
let me know what you think

GreenNnice · Feb 7, 2014

Re: "trumpet call of God." The Rapture's call, or, the 7th trumpet sounding?

watcher2013 said:

Yes, the video is great for anyone who wants to have his/her eschatology challenged by the rapture coming prior to the wrath of God and also the 1000 year reign of Christ.

The two main points that illustrate that Christ is going to raise the dead, first, and, then, those alive on Earth going up to the clouds speaks of a rapture, it just can't speak of anything else. Some want to think this is after the wrath of God and judgement of the dead, but, Scripture is self explanatory, to me, anyway. Let all men think for themselves, and, as this teacher explains, 'Let no man be deceived,' just as Paul said. Let His Holy Spirit in you guide you to all Truth.

Excellent presentations, thanks for posting, WatchHim

konroh · Feb 8, 2014

Re: "trumpet call of God." The Rapture's call, or, the 7th trumpet sounding?

You show the problems with your interpretation here. The "we" doesn't have to be inclusive of Paul, it can just be authorial. Paul could say we and speak of believers before Rapture and after Rapture. He of course couldn't be a part of both groups, but he'd still say "we."
Also, the idea of the "last" trump is descriptive, not definitive. The word "eschaton" in Greek can have both definitions, just like our word "last". I could say on the last day of December something happened. I cannot possibly mean that there will never be another December ever again. Do you see what I'm getting at? So too the trump of 1 Cor. 15 can and does refer to a description of a last trumpet, not a definitive last trumpet, otherwise Paul would have said, "For the trumpets will sound" but he only says, "for the trump will sound." Clearly descriptive, not definitive.

Unfortunately this renders a deathblow to all your arguments. IMHO

doulos · Feb 8, 2014

Re: "trumpet call of God." The Rapture's call, or, the 7th trumpet sounding?

konroh said:

doulos said:

You show the problems with your interpretation here. The "we" doesn't have to be inclusive of Paul, it can just be authorial. Paul could say we and speak of believers before Rapture and after Rapture. He of course couldn't be a part of both groups, but he'd still say "we."
Also, the idea of the "last" trump is descriptive, not definitive. The word "eschaton" in Greek can have both definitions, just like our word "last". I could say on the last day of December something happened. I cannot possibly mean that there will never be another December ever again. Do you see what I'm getting at? So too the trump of 1 Cor. 15 can and does refer to a description of a last trumpet, not a definitive last trumpet, otherwise Paul would have said, "For the trumpets will sound" but he only says, "for the trump will sound." Clearly descriptive, not definitive.

Unfortunately this renders a deathblow to all your arguments. IMHO

Paul said we which would include himself. So unless Paul is expecting to be taken twice it is the same event.

G2249
ἡμεῖς
hēmeis
hay-mice'
Nomitive plural of G1473; we (only used when emphatic): - us, we (ourselves).

As for as last goes it is either last or the verse is a lie. In the example you provide there is a qualifier (of december) there are no qualifiers in the verse so either we believe it is last as Scripture states or we find excuses to justify not believing.
G2078
ἔσχατος
eschatos
es'-khat-os
A superlative probably from G2192 (in the sense of contiguity); farthest, final (of place or time): - ends of, last, latter end, lowest, uttermost.

If all the verses are describing the same event there would be no need to make the word trump plural and say trumps. One event one trump.

IMHO it is far better to change our doctrines to match what Scripture says then it is to change Scriptures to match our doctrine.

konroh · Feb 8, 2014

Re: "trumpet call of God." The Rapture's call, or, the 7th trumpet sounding?

Or Paul uses the term we in the sense of Christian brotherhood. Paul said we but clearly he was not Raptured. Was Paul wrong? No, in the same way Paul could say we talking of future brethren that he himself would not be a part of but are still his brothers in Christ. We have been Christians for 2000 years, we will be Raptured, we will endure the Tribulation, We will see Christ. All these "we's" are true, even though I cannot possibly personally be there for all these events.

I agree that last can have the definition of superlative. But the problem with that is that we have 7 trumpets in Revelation, we have the trump of the Rapture and we have the trump of the 2nd coming. Which one is really the last? How are they together? A trumpet is an announcement. I disagree that 1 Cor. 15 is superlative based on the context.

23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, 24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

The last enemy that is abolished is death, this is truly the culmination, the last. When Christ has shown to be spiritually and physically the conqueror of all. I believe this refers to the end of the millenium, the new heaven and earth.

But Paul speaking of our resurrection is different: 54But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. 55“O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?” 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

We overcome the sting of death here in our daily lives when we do not sin and live by grace not by law and achieve victory through Christ. This refers to each one of us culminating in putting on the imperishable. This is not the end of all time, it is the end of our time, our own journey in this world of sin, death, law, sting, victory. When we are resurrected--about which this entire chapter is devoted (ch. 15) we will achieve victory. And ultimately Jesus will reign supreme even over death. But the end spoken of in verse 26 is not the same end in v. 55.

Peace

doulos · Feb 9, 2014

Re: "trumpet call of God." The Rapture's call, or, the 7th trumpet sounding?

konroh said:

As a partaker in the first resurrection Paul’s soul went to heaven the moment he died. It is true that his physical body will not rejoin his soul until the second resuurection which occurs when Christ returns and defeats death. So unless Paul was expecting his body to be resurrected twice then 1Th4:16-18 and 1 Cor15:52 have to be the same event.

The only possible way to say this is not the last or final trump is to add a qualifier to the verse. I don’t know about you but I don’t believe in adding to Scripture so I will accept the verse as written, if you are comfortable adding a qualifier not contained in Scripture so that you can cling to the false doctrine you espouse, that is certainly your right and your choice.

Each in his own order! Not all of us are born again at the same time. Obviously Paul was born again long before you and I. But what happens when we are born again? Aren’t we “translated” into Christ’s kingdom?
Col_1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

So as believers we have already been translated into Christ’s kingdom, so even though your’s or my body could unexpectedly die from a heart attack (or whatever) at any moment we have already partaken in the first ressurection and our souls are joined with the Lord. Remember we are the lively stones that make up the true temple with Christ as the cornerstone. Those that are already believers have partaken in the first ressurection. The unbelievers who will accept Christ in the future are not yet partakers in the first ressurecttion. But like the believers before them they will partake in it when they are born again at which time more lively stones are added to the temple with Christ as the cornerstone which is why Scripture states “but each in his own order”.

Sure it does but don’t make the mistake of expecting an earthly king. The Jews made that mistake, let’s not repeat their error! The millenium is not future Christ’s reign started back in the first century. Was John wrong when he said he was in Christ’s kingdom while on the isle of Patmos?
Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
How cpuld John have been in Christ's kingdom 1900+ years ago if Christ's kingdom is still future? Was John wrong or could your interpretation concerning Christ’s kingdom being future be in error?

As a believer my physical body may still be stuck on this earth but I have already been translated into Christ’s kingdom!
Col_1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
So my friend are you in Christ’s kingdom now? If so then how can Christ’s kingdom still be in our future if we are already in it?

Considering that the first resurrection has already occurred for those that are in Christ there is only one resurrection left not two. So how could 1Th4:16-18 and 1Cor15:52 be two separte events? They can’t unless there are three resurrections. Scripture does not show three resurrections, only two. Believers don’t suffer a second death only the nonbelievers do and that occurs at the last/7th trump!

Let’s revisit those verses and see if your claim is true.
1Co 15:20-26 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

As the above verses show the end comes when Christ defeats death and delivers the kingdom to His Father. Has Christ handed the kingdom over to His Father yet? No that does not happen until the last trump. As we can see from Rev11:15 this happens at the seventh trump..
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
As believers our bodies may suffer a physical death, but our souls have already overcome the sting of death. This is why as Christians we should not fear death. Our bodies may be dead but our souls are with the Lord, but have no fear at the second coming our souls will receive an incorruptible body!

mystdancer50 · Feb 9, 2014

Re: "trumpet call of God." The Rapture's call, or, the 7th trumpet sounding?

Here are my thoughts on this:

So, Matthew 24 talks of the coming of Christ and the end days. In verses 29-31, it says:

Immediately after the distress of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.* At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds in the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

If we then go to Revelation 6, we see the opening of the seals and such and we see the same thing, focusing on verses 12-13 and 17:

I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

For the great day of their [God and Christ] wrath has come, and who can stand?

This is when the wrath of the Lord is poured out. So, lining up the Matthew reference, regarding God calling His elect home, and matching the occurrences there to the Revelation scripture, we see the rapture of the saints before the wrath of God is poured out, before even the anti-Christ has risen to full power.

Also, by looking closely at the seals, every single one has been opened except the sixth seal, for even now, the martyrs in heaven are crying out for justice at the throne of the Lamb. Once the sun turns black and the moon blood red and the stars fall like figs, then Jesus shall rapture His church and the wrath of God shall be poured out.

*Isaiah 13:10; 34:4

mystdancer50 · Feb 9, 2014

Re: "trumpet call of God." The Rapture's call, or, the 7th trumpet sounding?

Additionally, the error has come in calling the time of God's wrath "The Great Tribulation", for we all know that the Gospel says that we will have tribulation, so the naming of the events revealed in Revelation is a major issue in causing confusion. It is the Time of Jacob's Trouble, truly, a time of God's wrath, a time that will usurp all tribulations that have come before, as God officially pours out His wrath upon creation, before the battle, the thousand years, and the ultimate White Throne Judgment.

konroh · Feb 9, 2014

Re: "trumpet call of God." The Rapture's call, or, the 7th trumpet sounding?

There is a qualifier, it says, "for the trumpet shall sound" I was clearly dealing with the qualifier, it doesn't say "the trumpets will sound" thus it cannot refer to the 7 trumpets of Rev.

You seem to misunderstand what Paul is saying, Christ received His resurrection body, after that those that are Christ's at His coming will receive their resurrection bodies. This is why 1 Thess 4 is linked to the resurrection here. The dead in Christ rise first, then us, we all receive resurrection bodies at the Rapture.

We are absolutely in the kingdom of Christ, but the question is, is this the promised Davidic earthly kingdom that was promised? Or is it a reinterpreted spiritualized kingdom? Sure, we're in the kingdom. But why did the disciples ask if Jesus was going to restore the kingdom in Acts 1? Why didn't Jesus say we were in the restored kingdom instead of proclaiming it to be future?
6Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
7He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.

I honestly have no idea what you mean by this. We are not resurrected, only Christ is, and no one who's died in Christ is resurrected either, that occurs at the Rapture, the dead in Christ are raised first. So your arguments seems to me to be moot.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Where in this verse does it say that Jesus gives the kingdom over to the Father? This is a clear statement of the beginning of Jesus reign, I don't think Jesus turns the kingdom over to the Father until Rev. 20:14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
Which is followed immediately by 1Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[SUP]a[/SUP] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

After the Great White Throne judgment we never have any more references to death, death has been destroyed. We know only have heaven and life. This is when Jesus hands the kingdom over to the Father.

By the way, I'm sure we have incredible differences in our hermeneutical presuppositions that probably pre-emptively prevent our agreement on certain verses, particularly prophetic ones.

doulos · Feb 9, 2014

Re: "trumpet call of God." The Rapture's call, or, the 7th trumpet sounding?

konroh said:

“For the trumpet shall sound is not a qualifier that only tells us the trump sounds, but it does not give us reason to believe any other trumps will follow it. The only way you could say the seven trumps of Revelation came after the last trump of 1Cor15:52 is by adding the qualifier except for the 7 trumps of Revelation, after the words last trump in1Cor16:52. As I said before either we believe the verse as it is written or we add some sort of qualifier to the verse in order to justify a false belief that the last trump isn’t really the last trump. Like I said before if you are comfortable adding to the verse so you can cling to the doctrine you espouse. So be it, as you are led friend, as you are led. Not all 7 trumpets are blown at the same time, they are blown in order 1-7 through out the Christian era with the last/7[SUP]th[/SUP] being blown when Christ returns, defeats death and delivers the kingdom to His Father.. So the explanation I have provided concerning the last/7[SUP]th[/SUP] trump does match Scripture. Yours on the other hand requires you to add words (a qualifier) to Scripture in order to justify not believing the verse as written.

Concerning the part of your post on the millenial kingdom we either believe Christ or we don’t Christ clearly said His kingdom was not of this world.
Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Clearly concerning the millenial kingdom I have not adequately conveyed the message I was attempting to convey, nor do I feel I can do any better then my previous attempt within the constraints of a single post. So allow me to suggest you read Millenial Musings (<click) if you truly want to understand the millenial kingdom.
But hey if you want to believe His kingdom is of this world then by all means as you are led friend, as you are led.

Either we use sound hermeneutic principles or we don’t. We can’t both be correct, but it is possible that both of us are incorrect, or that one of us is correct and the other is in error. One of the main problems with futurism (be it pre mid or post trib) is that it cannot positively be proven until after the events have occurred. On the other hand the historicist method can show where all most all of prophecy leading to the second advent of Christ has been fulfilled by using Scripture and history to show it’s fulfillment (not to be mistaken with parial preterism which promotes the fallacy that most of prophcy was fulfilled in 70AD) When we look at Old Testament prophcey leading to the first advent of Christ we can see from fulfilled prophecy that the events leading to the first advent of Christ literally unfolded over numerous centuries. Scripture tells us Word was God (John1;1) Scripture also tells us God does not change (Mal3:6, Heb13:8). So unless we believe our unchanging God changed and is now using a different MO (methods of operation) concerning prophecy then we can be assured the prophetic Scriptures pertaining to the second advent will unfold over centuries just as the the prophetic Scriptures concerning the first advent did. I don’t buy into either partial preterism or futurism (be it pre, mid or post trib) instead I use the same methods of interpretation that almost all Christians use on the Old Testament prophecies leading to the first advent of Christ (Historicism). This method recognizes that the prophetic Scriptures leading to the second advent of Christ also unfolds over numerous centuries, just as the Old Testament prophecies leading to the first advent of Christ did If you would like to gain an understanding of the different methods of interpretation such as partial preterism, futurism, idealism (which is almost non existent and not worth even bothering with as I have never met anyone that uses it) or historicism (which coincedently is the way many of the reformers viewed prophecy) methods may I suggest reading Christian Eschatology < click
If after reading the links provided you are willing to take off your doctrinal filters and set aside the doctrine you espouse in order to search for truth then by all means lets discuss prophecy. On the other hand if you are unwilling to take off your doctrinal filters and prefer to stand by the false doctrine you espouse then there really is no point in continuing as doing so would only be an exercise in futility.

As you are led my friend, as you are led.

Jennyyyyy · Apr 7, 2014

Re: "trumpet call of God." The Rapture's call, or, the 7th trumpet sounding?

I don't believe in the rapture.
People want to feel like they'll escape the fear of the trib. Unless you're dead, you will not escape it. Anyone who was meant not to endure this is already in Heaven.

I do think it'll be better for some worse for others, because God doesn't give you more than you can handle.

Bible verses aside, that's my honest take and opinion.

"trumpet call of God." The Rapture's call, or, the 7th trumpet sounding?

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