mans nature and the question of the 'will'!

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phil36

phil36

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So often we get into debates here bout the so called free will of man. Now I am not saying this is correct or not, what I am asking:

1) What makes a mans will 'free'
2) Can a man 'will' something that is not his nature
3) Can man morally choose to do good that pleases God

There is a lot of confusion over this. I can choose freely every second,every minute, everyday yet I will always choose according to who I am (my nature). I am not sure if you have heard sayings like 'that was out of character for .... to do that' or ' I can't believe such and such did that it was not in their nature to act that way'.. sayings like this often confuse the situation for people who say them are not actually thinking about what they are saying and in general they believe all humans to ne mostly and inherently good (against what scripture says)

------ So if you believe in 'free will' explain what you mean by that. that is if you think that either man is inherently good or that you can choose to do morally good outwith your nature or who you are.


------- If you believe that mans choices and will are tied to his nature (Free agency) please describe what you mean.


This would be good if we used what scripture says on the matter.


Hopefully we can come to a better understanding, rather than topics going on and on and on because we do not understand what these terms actually and biblically are..if they even are??
 
4enlightment

4enlightment

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People has the ability to control their emotions. A person can decide whether they desire revenge or not on their enemies. But animals move by instinct.

Ecclesiastes 3:18
I also said to myself, “As for humans, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals.
2 Peter 2:12
But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish.
 
L

lookuptoseeJesus

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You can decide wether to obey God or not.

If yo decide to obey God then you have to decided wether you will obey some things or all things

when you have decided to obey God in all things, and you make that decision
then you are born again

with a new heart
a new desire to follow JJesus
and you will search for everything God has told you

then you are one of the chosen who have allowed themselves to be chosen to be on God's team...

the half christians will not survive.
 
phil36

phil36

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Feb 12, 2009
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were do desires come from? does your nature dictate your desires?

Back to the will.. can the will be separate from who you are naturally?
 
S

Stinger

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#5
#5
phil36 said:
So often we get into debates here bout the so called free will of man. Now I am not saying this is correct or not, what I am asking:

1) What makes a mans will 'free'
2) Can a man 'will' something that is not his nature
3) Can man morally choose to do good that pleases God

There is a lot of confusion over this. ...
Click to expand...
Hello phil36,

Yes, there is a lot of confusion. To answer your questions...

1) What makes a mans will 'free'

Man was created in God's image, with the ability to choose his own actions.

2) Can a man 'will' something that is not his nature

A man's nature/behavior is controllable by his will. We choose our nature/behavior.

3) Can man morally choose to do good that pleases God

Of course. What would make you think otherwise?
 
phil36

phil36

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Stinger said:
Hello phil36,

Yes, there is a lot of confusion. To answer your questions...

1) What makes a mans will 'free'

Man was created in God's image, with the ability to choose his own actions.

2) Can a man 'will' something that is not his nature

A man's nature/behavior is controllable by his will. We choose our nature/behavior.

3) Can man morally choose to do good that pleases God

Of course. What would make you think otherwise?
Click to expand...

Hi Stinger good answers.

But I was looking for answers that are biblical rather than what we may think are right.

for example, we where created in God's image, but something happened and that image was distorted and twisted - Fallen (Gen 3; Isa 64:6; Jer 17:9; Eph 2:1-5 etc etc).

You say a mans nature is controlled by his will, can a man change his nature by his own will can he change his will by his nature.. and are his choices free from either of these?

And this leads us to the last point - you say that man can choose to do a moral good that pleases God, yet scripture tells us that our good deeds are as filthy rags.

of course I ma referring to the man who is not regenerate. just to labour on point 2 that you answered. if man can control his nature then he could undo the nature inherited by the Fall.
 
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S

Stinger

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phil36 said:
Hi Stinger good answers.

But I was looking for answers that are biblical rather than what we may think are right.

...

And this leads us to the last point - you say that man can choose to do a moral good that pleases God, yet scripture tells us that our good deeds are as filthy rags.

...
Click to expand...
Hello phil36,

I think you gave your own answer (underlined above). So then, we agree that men can choose to do good.
 
RedTent

RedTent

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Oct 31, 2011
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phil36 said:
So often we get into debates here bout the so called free will of man. Now I am not saying this is correct or not, what I am asking:

1) What makes a mans will 'free'
2) Can a man 'will' something that is not his nature
3) Can man morally choose to do good that pleases God
Click to expand...
I think this question takes in a lot. What does the Holy Spirit have to do with free will? How can we decide what we decide is of God or of our flesh. I mean flesh as it expresses the purely worldly part of our nature, not including the spirit of God within us.

I have made a study of the subconscious mind, and find we are even forming this part when we listen to anything interesting to us while we are very quiet. It is formed by our emotions. If any of you have been in a car accident, you know how your subconscious mind reacts to car rides in connection with the emotions you learned at the accident. So what is input in our minds affect our nature and will. You can't go to a dirty movie or read a dirty book without it having some effect on your will, depending on your filtering system.

I don't think we can answer this question without taking in a lot of things. Scripture tells us to choose what we let in our minds, Phil 4:8, telling us what to let our minds think about. We are also told that we must be born of the spirit to see God John 3:8.

Many things must work together. It is through receiving the Holy Spirit that we can know and choose God's way. After that, we have free will, minute by minute, to go by our own way or choose God's way as better.
 
Simona25

Simona25

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phil36 said:
2) Can a man 'will' something that is not his nature
Click to expand...
I believe that God created Adam and Eve with a perfect nature because He created man in His image and likeness. When we sin, we seek good (sin gives you a temporary satisfaction, an ilusory recompensation, and you feel good); sin gives you pleasure, while God gives you joy. Pleasure is something easy to achieve; no one wants to suffer, but we don`t realise that by sinning we are hurting ourselves, our souls, our human nature. When the snake tempted Adam, he said that the fruit will give him knowledge and will make Adam like God. Having knowledge and being Godlike are not bad things, but Adam wanted to achieve them the easy way (like we all do) and by himself (like atheists want).
So, I believe that people seek pleasure and avoid suffrance when they sin, they do not seek death and evil. The psychiatrist Viktor Frankl said that in every man lies a profound desire of transcending his human condition and I believe that this desire is nothing more than the thirst for God that all people have, because God Himself put it in His creation. The only problem is that we seek good in the wrong place.

However, I do not understand where did that prideful thought of Lucifer came from, because he was also created by God and he had a very high position in heaven (he was bigger than Saint Archangel Michail). I won`t risk myself and assume that maybe Lucifer was also seeking something good. He was pretty awear of his sin, which is why I believe he can no longer be forgiven. But these are matters that are unknown for me and anyway, you were asking about the human nature and not about the angelic nature.
 
phil36

phil36

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Your right redtent, its not a topic answered easily.. I'm just trying to get people to think about what they think they mean by free will, what mans nature is and how this all is affected by the Fall.. and then also by being born again. Even as a Christian we are bondservants to Jesus..

The gist really is can a man who is fallen choose to do a moral good that pleases God, since we are dead in our sins and quite happy that way.. and all our good works are like filthy rags to God. When we become saved it changes.
 
posthuman

posthuman

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would you have a will at all, if God had not given it to you?
could you exercise it, if God did not allow it?

if it is your nature to be changed, can you by your will change that nature and become immovable?
if it is your nature to be unchanging, can you by your will make your nature fluid?

if your will is against your nature, is it your nature to be contrary?
if your nature is to be willful, can you by your own will remove your willfulness?

if He does not call you, can you come of your own will?
if He calls you, can you by your will undo the will of heaven?

 
posthuman

posthuman

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Stinger said:
1) What makes a mans will 'free'

Man was created in God's image, with the ability to choose his own actions.
Click to expand...
man didn't choose sin until after the serpent had tempted Eve.

Stinger said:
2) Can a man 'will' something that is not his nature

A man's nature/behavior is controllable by his will. We choose our nature/behavior.
Click to expand...
what governs our choice? does our nature war against itself, that it can cause us to will against itself?

Stinger said:
3) Can man morally choose to do good that pleases God

Of course. What would make you think otherwise?
Click to expand...


"without me ye can do nothing"
John 15:5

forgive me if i misunderstand. it's been a long time since i was human. :)
 
V

Veritas

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posthuman

posthuman

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phil36 said:
1) What makes a mans will 'free'?
Click to expand...

the patience and mercy of the Almighty.

phil36 said:
2) Can a man 'will' something that is not his nature?
Click to expand...
Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots?
then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
(Jeremiah 13:23)

phil36 said:
3) Can man morally choose to do good that pleases God?
Click to expand...

Blessed is the man whom thou choosest , and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts:
we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holytemple.
(Psalm 65:4)

What is man, that he should be clean?
and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?
Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints;
yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight.
How much more abominable and filthy is man,
which drinketh iniquity like water?
(Job 15:14-16)
 
4enlightment

4enlightment

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phil36 said:
were do desires come from? does your nature dictate your desires?

Back to the will.. can the will be separate from who you are naturally?
Click to expand...

"Will" means "desire", and it comes from what kind of spirit a person has in their soul.

willed, will·ing, wills
v.tr.1. To decide on; choose.
2. To yearn for; desire: "She makes you will your own destruction" (George Bernard Shaw).
3. To decree, dictate, or order.
4. To resolve with a forceful will; determine.
5. To induce or try to induce by sheer force of will: We willed the sun to come out.
6. To grant in a legal will; bequeath.


Matthew 6:10
your kingdom come, your will (Desire) be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

Matthew 5:6
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.


 
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