-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
_______ JGIG's Thoughts on Calvinist/'Reformed' Theology______
In any theological 'system', the focus of each system of belief can stray from Biblical Christianity in such a way that the belief system becomes the focus of each group, and n...ot the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the identity and maturity of the believer in Him.
Agendas outweigh foundational teaching. Idealism and intellectual ascent often outweighs growing the local body in Scriptural Grace and truth and maturity.
Calvinism/Reformed theology is one of those things where the theology takes on a life and focus of its own. Many (not all) in the C/R camp will only fellowship with 'like-minded' believers, identify themselves as Reformed Christians rather than just Christians, and narrowly categorize nearly everyone who disagrees with them of being an Arminian, or worse yet, a semi-Pelagian.
I hate even going here because Reformed folks (and like with any 'system' of theology, there are varying streams within the system) get so much right! That said, there are some grave errors in the TULIP model that is used to communicate their 'Doctrines of Grace'.
One must be careful not to confuse the Doctrines of Grace (so named by Reformed theologians) with the Gospel of Grace (so named by the Apostles).
The ‘Doctrines of Grace’ are founded primarily on the TULIP model, a model in which I find some really unscriptural proclamations. I’m like a .5/.5 point Calvinist, ha. Each half point on the ‘T’ and ‘P’ points of Calvinism.
Total Depravity
I agree with the concept of Total Depravity only to the point where man cannot be good enough to ‘earn’ his/her salvation.
That said, mankind did eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, not just from the Tree of the Knowledge of Evil.
Mankind does posses the ability to do good in this world. I know some very good and nice unbelievers. When judged by the Law, however, they will always fall short unless they are in Christ, as the Scriptures clearly tell us.
Here’s the thing: No one goes to Hell for the sins that they commit; they go to Hell because of the sin of First Adam (Romans 5). I think there are obvious exceptions for the innocent among us, such as the young and infirmed who cannot choose Christ. Perhaps there is a gift of clarity at the time of death where God reveals Himself and opportunity is given - purely speculation on my part, but consistent with God's justice and Grace.
Seem unfair? Let’s look at the flip side: Every person who goes to Heaven does not go there because of the righteousness that they have achieved by keeping the Law; they go to Heaven because of the Righteousness of Christ which is likewise imputed to them when they put their faith in Christ (also Romans 5). Equally ‘unfair’, but in our favor – that is Grace.
Unconditional Election and Limited Atonement
Unconditional Election asserts: “that God has chosen from eternity those whom he will bring to himself not based on foreseen virtue, merit, or faith in those people; rather, his choice is unconditionally grounded in his mercy alone. God has chosen from eternity to extend mercy to those he has chosen and to withhold mercy from those not chosen. Those chosen receive salvation through Christ alone. Those not chosen receive the just wrath that is warranted for their sins against God.” Yet in numerous places we see where salvation is offered to all on the basis of Grace through faith. One Scripture that comes to mind specifically is
Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.
The offer is freely given to those who will accept the Gift of Righteousness. There are not those ‘chosen’ to be saved and those ‘chosen’ to be damned. That is a lie from the Pit.
Unconditional Election is interwoven with the concept of ‘Limited Atonement’, where Calvinism asserts that “Jesus’s substitution[al] atonement was definite and certain in its purpose and in what it accomplished. This implies that only the sins of the elect were atoned for by Jesus’s death.
Calvinists do not believe, however, that the atonement is limited in its value or power, but rather that the atonement is limited in the sense that it is intended for some and not all.”
>>> Bull Pucky.<<<
God is clear in His Word that the Work of Christ resulted in the forgiveness of the sins of the WHOLE world (John 3, Rom. 5, 2 Cor. 5, 1 John 2 and others). Does that mean all are saved? No. One must receive that forgiveness and the Gift of Righteousness, resulting in the New Life in the Spirit (Eph. 1-2). Which leads us to the next concept . . .
Irresistible Grace
Irresistible Grace, which asserts that “that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (that is, the elect) and overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to a saving faith. This means that when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved.”
Again, disagree. Free Will is all over the Scriptures. The Sovereignty of God is not thwarted by His giving to man free will.
Perseverance of the Saints
Perseverance of the Saints, “(or preservation) of the saints (the word “saints” is used to refer to all who are set apart by God, and not of those who are exceptionally holy, canonized, or in heaven) asserts that since God is sovereign and his will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with himself will continue in faith until the end. Those who apparently fall away either never had true faith to begin with or will return to the faith.”
I’m in the ‘Once Saved, Always Saved’ camp, no doubt see THIS: Hebrew Roots Movement – Hebrews 10, Willful Sin, No More Sacrifice, and Judgement, Oh My!
What I have always found to be a disconnect (one of several in Calvinism/Reformed theology) is that those in the Reformed camp claim eternal security, yet if someone falls into sin, they say something like, “Well, that person was never really saved to begin with.”
That is akin to eternal security ‘if’, which is no different than the conditional security stance.
-JGIG
In any theological 'system', the focus of each system of belief can stray from Biblical Christianity in such a way that the belief system becomes the focus of each group, and n...ot the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the identity and maturity of the believer in Him.
Agendas outweigh foundational teaching. Idealism and intellectual ascent often outweighs growing the local body in Scriptural Grace and truth and maturity.
Calvinism/Reformed theology is one of those things where the theology takes on a life and focus of its own. Many (not all) in the C/R camp will only fellowship with 'like-minded' believers, identify themselves as Reformed Christians rather than just Christians, and narrowly categorize nearly everyone who disagrees with them of being an Arminian, or worse yet, a semi-Pelagian.
I hate even going here because Reformed folks (and like with any 'system' of theology, there are varying streams within the system) get so much right! That said, there are some grave errors in the TULIP model that is used to communicate their 'Doctrines of Grace'.
One must be careful not to confuse the Doctrines of Grace (so named by Reformed theologians) with the Gospel of Grace (so named by the Apostles).
The ‘Doctrines of Grace’ are founded primarily on the TULIP model, a model in which I find some really unscriptural proclamations. I’m like a .5/.5 point Calvinist, ha. Each half point on the ‘T’ and ‘P’ points of Calvinism.
Total Depravity
I agree with the concept of Total Depravity only to the point where man cannot be good enough to ‘earn’ his/her salvation.
That said, mankind did eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, not just from the Tree of the Knowledge of Evil.
Mankind does posses the ability to do good in this world. I know some very good and nice unbelievers. When judged by the Law, however, they will always fall short unless they are in Christ, as the Scriptures clearly tell us.
Here’s the thing: No one goes to Hell for the sins that they commit; they go to Hell because of the sin of First Adam (Romans 5). I think there are obvious exceptions for the innocent among us, such as the young and infirmed who cannot choose Christ. Perhaps there is a gift of clarity at the time of death where God reveals Himself and opportunity is given - purely speculation on my part, but consistent with God's justice and Grace.
Seem unfair? Let’s look at the flip side: Every person who goes to Heaven does not go there because of the righteousness that they have achieved by keeping the Law; they go to Heaven because of the Righteousness of Christ which is likewise imputed to them when they put their faith in Christ (also Romans 5). Equally ‘unfair’, but in our favor – that is Grace.
Unconditional Election and Limited Atonement
Unconditional Election asserts: “that God has chosen from eternity those whom he will bring to himself not based on foreseen virtue, merit, or faith in those people; rather, his choice is unconditionally grounded in his mercy alone. God has chosen from eternity to extend mercy to those he has chosen and to withhold mercy from those not chosen. Those chosen receive salvation through Christ alone. Those not chosen receive the just wrath that is warranted for their sins against God.” Yet in numerous places we see where salvation is offered to all on the basis of Grace through faith. One Scripture that comes to mind specifically is
Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.
The offer is freely given to those who will accept the Gift of Righteousness. There are not those ‘chosen’ to be saved and those ‘chosen’ to be damned. That is a lie from the Pit.
Unconditional Election is interwoven with the concept of ‘Limited Atonement’, where Calvinism asserts that “Jesus’s substitution[al] atonement was definite and certain in its purpose and in what it accomplished. This implies that only the sins of the elect were atoned for by Jesus’s death.
Calvinists do not believe, however, that the atonement is limited in its value or power, but rather that the atonement is limited in the sense that it is intended for some and not all.”
>>> Bull Pucky.<<<
God is clear in His Word that the Work of Christ resulted in the forgiveness of the sins of the WHOLE world (John 3, Rom. 5, 2 Cor. 5, 1 John 2 and others). Does that mean all are saved? No. One must receive that forgiveness and the Gift of Righteousness, resulting in the New Life in the Spirit (Eph. 1-2). Which leads us to the next concept . . .
Irresistible Grace
Irresistible Grace, which asserts that “that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (that is, the elect) and overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to a saving faith. This means that when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved.”
Again, disagree. Free Will is all over the Scriptures. The Sovereignty of God is not thwarted by His giving to man free will.
Perseverance of the Saints
Perseverance of the Saints, “(or preservation) of the saints (the word “saints” is used to refer to all who are set apart by God, and not of those who are exceptionally holy, canonized, or in heaven) asserts that since God is sovereign and his will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with himself will continue in faith until the end. Those who apparently fall away either never had true faith to begin with or will return to the faith.”
I’m in the ‘Once Saved, Always Saved’ camp, no doubt see THIS: Hebrew Roots Movement – Hebrews 10, Willful Sin, No More Sacrifice, and Judgement, Oh My!
What I have always found to be a disconnect (one of several in Calvinism/Reformed theology) is that those in the Reformed camp claim eternal security, yet if someone falls into sin, they say something like, “Well, that person was never really saved to begin with.”
That is akin to eternal security ‘if’, which is no different than the conditional security stance.
-JGIG
The fatal flaw in the video defending the Calvinistic model starts around 5:30, where he equates forgiveness with salvation.
Forgiveness makes salvation possible, but forgiveness is not salvation itself.
Reconciliation was given to all, and all sins were forgiven at the Cross:
When forgiveness is received, the Righteousness of God in Christ is imparted to us and then we are sealed with the Holy Spirit. (Eph. 1).
An excellent free audio teaching on the simple Truths of the Gospel can be listened to/downloaded here:
-JGIG
Forgiveness makes salvation possible, but forgiveness is not salvation itself.
6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. (from Rom. 5)
Reconciliation was given to all, and all sins were forgiven at the Cross:
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (from 2 Cor. 5)
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. [SUP]2 [/SUP][SUP][/SUP]And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (from 1 Jn. 2)
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. [SUP]2 [/SUP][SUP][/SUP]And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (from 1 Jn. 2)
When forgiveness is received, the Righteousness of God in Christ is imparted to us and then we are sealed with the Holy Spirit. (Eph. 1).
An excellent free audio teaching on the simple Truths of the Gospel can be listened to/downloaded here:
- God’s Solution to Man’s Problem – Life! – Study notes available HERE.
-JGIG