Lying in the Service of Souls

I'm a bit bothered by a trend I've seen, in which people are willing to spout whatever sounds convincing, even if it's not true. (Most people call this lying.)

Just today, while talking about Catholics, someone said that 'Vatican' came from 'vatis'+ 'can' where 'vatis' means 'prophecy' and 'can' means 'serpent.' Clearly, Catholics are servents of the devil! Nevermind that any first year Latin student knows that 'can-' has more to do with dogs than snakes. Catholics may be serpents of the devil, but your Latin is worse. Don't give etymologies unless you can translate basic sentences in the language.

Not too long after that, someone began saying that the prophecies of St. Malachi named the current pope 'Benedict' by name. I said it didn't. He said it did. I looked up at least three copies of the prophecy. None of them did - all of them talk about 'gloria olivae.' No Benedict, no Ben, no Dick or Jane or any other name. I asked for the precise phrase, multiple times, that named Benedict. Never got one, but I did get repeated insistances that it was there.

My favorite, of course, is the woman on here who suggests any Asian religious leader she doesn't like is a negligent father, even those who don't have children! I regularly hear lies about Buddhism when people are trying to convert me. I've heard that Buddhists believe we're all pieces of God, that we still do animal sacrifices, that we're uncompassionate people, etc.

Why do people think they can get away with bald-faced lies in the information age? It doesn't make Christianity look any better if it takes five minutes with Google to contradict the obvious ploy. Your faith is substantial enough that it doesn't require lies to make it more marketable.

[giantone]

Many people are too lazy to find the truth or question that they might be wrong sometimes. That’s why they think they can get away with it. Some people are blinded by learned teaching and maybe what they believe is true but they have the wrong facts to back it up. I can't remember the exact saying but if more people called each other on things that just don't quite line up everyone would benefit, even the people who are wrong. If you can get the truth many times both sides realize they didn't have as complete knowledge as they first thought.

[songster]

So tell me, dustyzafu, is the bible true or a lie ?

Originally Posted by songster

So tell me, dustyzafu, is the bible true or a lie ?

I don't see how it's pertinent here, where I'm discussing the half-baked etymologies and conspiracy theories people have chosen to talk about instead of the Bible. Had those I've listened to discussed the Bible rather than simply made up things that sounded good, my focus might have been different, but I think it's worth discussing that people are willing to fib, frequently, to evangelize.

You'll forgive me, I hope, if I stick to the subject I've chosen.

[Brackenzee]

Originally Posted by dustyzafu

Why do people think they can get away with bald-faced lies in the information age? It doesn't make Christianity look any better if it takes five minutes with Google to contradict the obvious ploy. Your faith is substantial enough that it doesn't require lies to make it more marketable.

I wholeheartedly understand where you're coming from and share your disdain.

Honestly, it's becasue many people don't care about truth. They're only interested in being right, and demonstrating how everyone else is wrong. It's a curse that's always plagued religious fundamentalists, and it makes me especially sad to see it so ingrained in my own religion. They worship their own sense of correctness and specialness instead of obeying the principles on which the faith is founded.

[songster]

Originally Posted by dustyzafu

I don't see how it's pertinent here, where I'm discussing the half-baked etymologies and conspiracy theories people have chosen to talk about instead of the Bible. Had those I've listened to discussed the Bible rather than simply made up things that sounded good, my focus might have been different, but I think it's worth discussing that people are willing to fib, frequently, to evangelize.

You'll forgive me, I hope, if I stick to the subject I've chosen.

I can appreciate your disgust, but it would seem, from your statement, that you would have preferred to talk about the bible, had they not presented false information. Word etymologies can be interesting, but I rarely use them. Conspiracy theories are an evident distrust of government and the desperation of some, to relate current events to the biblical depiction of the end times.

I'm simply offerring you the chance to return to what seemed to be your preference, to discuss the bible openly and honestly. I'm sure it is more satisfying, and maybe easier for you, to lash out at those who may have misrepresented Christ, but is there any point in continuing with this accusatory language against a few, to which you will receive little useful feedback, which is neither intellectually stimulating, nor fruitful?

What is your relationship with God, and your understanding of the Christian bible?

[greatkraw]

There is a problem with Christians, in my experience, in that they pass on misinformation because they are trusting and naive(due to their own honesty)
I have seen Christians set up in this way, only to be subsequently discredited.

Originally Posted by songster

I'm simply offerring you the chance to return to what seemed to be your preference, to discuss the bible openly and honestly.

This single conversation is, of course, not my only interface with Christians; elsewhere I've moved on to other topics. Because these aren't germane here, however, I'm not discussing them here. As I said above, you're invited to begin your own threads if the topic I've chosen here isn't to your liking. Continued attempts to go off-topic will be ignored as such, however essential you believe your questions to be.

I'm sure it is more satisfying, and maybe easier for you, to lash out at those who may have misrepresented Christ, but is there any point in continuing with this accusatory language against a few, to which you will receive little useful feedback, which is neither intellectually stimulating, nor fruitful?

It's a phenomenon I truly wish to understand. If you believe I won't ever come to a satisfying understanding, that's fine, but I don't necessarily agree yet. My first consideration here is this: does the liar expect to be taken seriously? As far as I can tell, the lies are offered up precisely because the liar thinks they bolster the gospel and increase chances of success.

But that's the essential, underlying question - what is success to these folks? What are they looking for? What are they willing to lie to achieve? The use of falsehoods makes me believe that success in most attempts at evangelization is not a conversion. I've begun to suspect what Brackenzee suggests, that evangelism is often just a way to be right.

I've begun to suspect that there is no way the Christian can lose in this scenario. If the lie isn't contradicted, the Christian has a flawless argument. Catholics are Satanists, QED. If the lie is contradicted, however, the Christian may insist that the lie, which five minutes ago was essential, is now a pointless distraction. Why are you focusing on Latin etymologies and not Christ? You're using this as an excuse! It's clever - offer something outrageous. If they bite, you win. If they don't, you can discard the arguments of five minutes ago without cost. Unfortunately, this is not the way it works.

For what it's worth, it's not the case that this is simply a few folks - this is the majority of the presenters of the gospel as I have personally heard it and, having chosen to hang out with Christians, this isn't just a few folks. I'm not sure where you came up with that number - I'm going to assume you're asserting it because it sounds better if I'm just ranting about an unrepresentative sample.

[Brackenzee]

Well I'd say the experience you've had is because the mentality of a person who randomly begins preaching to you unsolicited is the same personality type that has the need to feel as though they're right and those around them are wrong. Most Christians understand that tact, honesty, and kindness are required if they wish to reach people and don't attempt to discuss their faith at inappropriate times or in inappropriate manners. If you come across as a fanatic or combative, people will tune you out and walk away.

[Jordan9]

Originally Posted by songster

I can appreciate your disgust, but it would seem, from your statement, that you would have preferred to talk about the bible, had they not presented false information. Word etymologies can be interesting, but I rarely use them. Conspiracy theories are an evident distrust of government and the desperation of some, to relate current events to the biblical depiction of the end times.

I'm simply offerring you the chance to return to what seemed to be your preference, to discuss the bible openly and honestly. I'm sure it is more satisfying, and maybe easier for you, to lash out at those who may have misrepresented Christ, but is there any point in continuing with this accusatory language against a few, to which you will receive little useful feedback, which is neither intellectually stimulating, nor fruitful?

What is your relationship with God, and your understanding of the Christian bible?

I think it is a huge problem if people are lying in the name of Christ. Huuuge, and deserves some "lashing out."

If non-Christians can't trust us to tell the truth, we're in deep trouble.

[loveschild]

Is everyone praying for Catholics to know God well. Lots of Catholics don't worship Mary. Lots of them are saved. False teaching have deep roots. We need to pray. Many Christians have been taught lots of things wrong.

[Maddog]

Originally Posted by loveschild

Lots of Catholics don't worship Mary.

I'm pretty sure that nearly all of them don't worship Mary.

Originally Posted by loveschild

Lots of them are saved.

I believe lots of Protestants will be saved too.

Originally Posted by loveschild

False teaching have deep roots.

*Cough* Protestant Reformation *cough*.

[MahogonySnail]

There's lots of lies within Christianity today. Many are hidden behind the veil of a denomination, others are in published "christian" books and there's plenty on the shelves of christian bookstores. Not only in doctrine but also popular opinion. From general doctrine/popular opinion to the rumors/lies that spread by Christians about people becoming christians before they die, when in fact they didn't. Not to mention the lies about political leaders such as Obama and Blair and Bush and others. So far in my walk with Christ, I've discovered popular opinions which are lies involving tithing, eternal security, the pre-trib rapture, baptism, bible versions, generation curses, church attendance, spiritual mentors or coverings, and the gifts of the Spirit, to name a few.

[pickles]

Originally Posted by dustyzafu

I don't see how it's pertinent here, where I'm discussing the half-baked etymologies and conspiracy theories people have chosen to talk about instead of the Bible. Had those I've listened to discussed the Bible rather than simply made up things that sounded good, my focus might have been different, but I think it's worth discussing that people are willing to fib, frequently, to evangelize.

You'll forgive me, I hope, if I stick to the subject I've chosen.

I have to ask because it is very pertinate in this subject line. In fact in many ways the reason for this subject line. Do you think that the bible is full of lies? Or am I misreading your responce.
God bless, pickles

[Brackenzee]

Originally Posted by pickles

I have to ask because it is very pertinate in this subject line. In fact in many ways the reason for this subject line. Do you think that the bible is full of lies? Or am I misreading your responce.
God bless, pickles

No, he's saying that instead of discussing what's in the Bible, they make stuff up.

[pickles]

Originally Posted by Brackenzee

No, he's saying that instead of discussing what's in the Bible, they make stuff up.

Sounds good, thankyou and God bless, pickles