Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[Cassian]

righteousness means perfection.

Have you attained it? for it is the only way you will make it to heaven.

It is how we attain perfection. but it actually means to be put into a correct relationship, to make right.

 

[Cassian]

Cassian, do me a favor? Explain your position in clear detail on how one is saved and whether or not, they must maintain that salvation. If possible, provide verses to back it up. The table is yours, for the moment.

First, you are mistating it in the first place.
One is saved by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. Eph 2:8-9.
the second part, we are not saved finitely by just believing. We enter into Christ, a relationship which is based on faith. We must remain faithful, when we do, we shall inherit the promise of eternal life with Christ, I Pet 1:3-5 which is salvation. One cannot maintain salvation, one maintains their faith for salvation.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

'Where is the word, justification ever used to mean one is saved? Prove your point, otherwise it is just an empty assertion.

It has been proven to you over and over, Just because you cannot see it does not mean it is not true.

You can not prove to someone that 2 + 2 = 4 if they do not want to see it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It is how we attain perfection. but it actually means to be put into a correct relationship, to make right.

You did not answer the question.

Have you attained perfection. God said it is the only way you will get to heaven. So are you perfect. and if not. How are you going to be perfect? Especially if you already failed to be perfect

 

[Cassian]

It has been proven to you over and over, Just because you cannot see it does not mean it is not true.

You can not prove to someone that 2 + 2 = 4 if they do not want to see it.

You have never cited a text that says we are saved using the word, justification.
You have not even shown any text that says we are saved the moment of belief. You and others consistantly confuse justification by faith, as salvation, and it means to be put into a correct relationship with Christ where one is saved, a living our of our faith so that we can inherit the promise of salvation awarded at the end, I Pet 1:3-5.

Anselm is the only one that changed to definition to build his erroneous theory , the Satisfaction theory of Atonement where he took the Roman civil law of pardon, to aquit, to declare just. Belief does not do this, nor faith. Which is why the theory is false and incorrect. It has been false since the 11th century when he developed it. Again, the problem here is that Luther, the first reformer adopted it into his theology, and the result was that all Protestants generally hold to the theory whether thy understand it or not.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You have never cited a text that says we are saved using the word, justification.
You have not even shown any text that says we are saved the moment of belief. You and others consistantly confuse justification by faith, as salvation, and it means to be put into a correct relationship with Christ where one is saved, a living our of our faith so that we can inherit the promise of salvation awarded at the end, I Pet 1:3-5.

Anselm is the only one that changed to definition to build his erroneous theory , the Satisfaction theory of Atonement where he took the Roman civil law of pardon, to aquit, to declare just. Belief does not do this, nor faith. Which is why the theory is false and incorrect. It has been false since the 11th century when he developed it. Again, the problem here is that Luther, the first reformer adopted it into his theology, and the result was that all Protestants generally hold to the theory whether thy understand it or not.

you have been shown over and over,

Again if you do not want to see it, that's on you.

If you do not want to believe 2 + 2 = 4 you will never see it.

Face it dude, People are sick of showing you the same stuff over and over, and you denying what it says.

So if your going to keep asking, thats the only answer your going to get.

 

[LT]

You have never cited a text that says we are saved using the word, justification.
You have not even shown any text that says we are saved the moment of belief. You and others consistantly confuse justification by faith, as salvation, and it means to be put into a correct relationship with Christ where one is saved, a living our of our faith so that we can inherit the promise of salvation awarded at the end, I Pet 1:3-5.

Anselm is the only one that changed to definition to build his erroneous theory , the Satisfaction theory of Atonement where he took the Roman civil law of pardon, to aquit, to declare just. Belief does not do this, nor faith. Which is why the theory is false and incorrect. It has been false since the 11th century when he developed it. Again, the problem here is that Luther, the first reformer adopted it into his theology, and the result was that all Protestants generally hold to the theory whether thy understand it or not.

... I personally showed you 24 verses in this thread... and you still have the audacity to continue stating that that we have not proven by Scripture...

Also, your history lessons need to be cited, because regulating this misinformation is beginning to get obnoxious.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Romans 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

Our salvation from the wrath of God is based on our justification.

Romans 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

we were reconciled by our justification, And by this, we will be saved from wrath. That is what salvation means.

again,

if yuo do not want to believe 2 + 2 = 4. yuo will never see it. You deny these passages, you deny the promise of God and you WILL not be saved by the wrath to come. period!

 

[Cassian]

You did not answer the question.

Have you attained perfection. God said it is the only way you will get to heaven. So are you perfect. and if not. How are you going to be perfect? Especially if you already failed to be perfect

The goal is perfection but man is not able to reach such high levels, though some are close, possibly Paul himself. We are commanded to be perfect as He is perfect, but just because we cannot attain it, does not mean we should just become innert, passive, and beign persons.
The forgiveness of sin makes one righeous, but we continually sin and need forgiveness.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The goal is perfection but man is not able to reach such high levels, though some are close, possibly Paul himself. We are commanded to be perfect as He is perfect, but just because we cannot attain it, does not mean we should just become innert, passive, and beign persons.
The forgiveness of sin makes one righeous, but we continually sin and need forgiveness.

Again you did not answer the question.

Are you perfect (yes or no)

if you are not. Then how to expect to reach that perfection.

because only the perfect will be let into heaven.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The goal is perfection but man is not able to reach such high levels, though some are close, possibly Paul himself. .

you have not read much scripture have you.

1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

 

[VCO]

We must really be fishing here, Not a single one of these texts deals with beleivers in particular. They all reference the Work of Christ reconciling, redeeming the world. It is this Gift that is the beginning of our salvation, which makes our relationship by and through faith even possible.
All things were reconciled by His Blood, Col 1:20,
Christ reconciled the world, II Cor 5:18-19, Rom 3:23-25, Rom 5:5-10.
It is his death and resurrection that gave life to all men, Rom 5:18, II Cor 15:22.
Christ overcame death, Heb 2:14, II Tim 1:10, the death of Gen 3:19, Rom 5:12.

It is the second part of this Gift that this discussion entails. His offer of being united with Him in a relationship now and for eternity. That relatioship has conditions, obligations for those in that relationship, and to inherit the promise at the end, one must be faithful, not loose faith.

Romans 5:8-11 (ASV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But God commendeth his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life;
[SUP]11 [/SUP]and not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.​

Paul wrote this, now what part of we do you not understand ? ? ? Are you telling me that you do not think there was ever a time that you were an enemy of GOD? OH MY, that is what you believe isn't it?

 

[Jabberjaw]

Romans 4

King James Version (KJV)

4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,



If righteous works were a requirement of salvation, it isn't a free gift but a wage due. When you die and stand before the Father, you will be able to say, "Give me salvation, as I have earned it." It is a debt God owes you, if indeed works are required. To even maintain salvation through good works, makes God a debtor to man, and He then owes them salvation. Again, adding any work upon the grace of God makes salvation a wage due and not a free gift.

Your correct, but only if I were to keep the Jewish Law, the works Paul speaks of here, you just can't get that part strait can you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Your correct, but only if I were to keep the Jewish Law, the works Paul speaks of here, you just can't get that part strait can you.

there was no jewish law in Abrahams day, so you can not try to force that into context.

You just do not get that do you. The works spoken of here is the work abraham did.

leaving his family
Going to a strange land. Having a son when he was past his prime, offering to sacrifice his son.

You just don;t get that do you.

 

[Cassian]

Romans 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

Our salvation from the wrath of God is based on our justification.

All men were justified by His Blood. Col 1:20, In Rom 5:10 it is all men as well, since all men were ungodly, and sinners. You are confusing what Christ did for the world, and conflating it with our individual salvation which is through our faith.

Romans 5:10

For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

See above. Conflation again. All men were reconciled through Christ to God. II Cor 5:18-19, Rom 3:23-25 is saying the very same thing. Each time the reason is given why Christ reconciled all men , gave all men life, so that God and man could be reunited which we do by faith, Justification by faith, and are being saved through faith.

we were reconciled by our justification, And by this, we will be saved from wrath. That is what salvation means.

actually this reconciliation is from death. Heb 2:14 accomplished through His resurrection and resurrection. I Cor 15:12-22.

if yuo do not want to believe 2 + 2 = 4. yuo will never see it. You deny these passages, you deny the promise of God and you WILL not be saved by the wrath to come. period!I don't deny the passages, but your interpretation is erroneous. Your view has never been the meaning of scripture. It was introduced by Luther and it has been incorrect since. You can hold to it, believe it, but it is not the meaning of scripture. I can assure you it will not change either, not after 2000 years of being unchanged.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

All men were justified by His Blood. Col 1:20, In Rom 5:10 it is all men as well, since all men were ungodly, and sinners. You are confusing what Christ did for the world, and conflating it with our individual salvation which is through our faith. [/B][/COLOR]

wrong. Justification comes only by faith/ and since all men do not have faith. all men have not been justified.

Are you perfect?

If not. how are you going to make yourself perfet

for only a perfect man can enter heaven?

 

[Cassian]

wrong. Justification comes only by faith/ and since all men do not have faith. all men have not been justified.

Are you perfect?

If not. how are you going to make yourself perfet

for only a perfect man can enter heaven?

Paul disagrees with you in Rom 5:18. The justification was life to all men. The other texts I quoted also states it was to all men. I Cor 15:12-22 does not use the word, but is describing the LIFE that was given to all men through Christ's resurrection.

Actually all men have faith as well, but I'm sure you will change that as well.
But in any case you need to brush up some more on your understanding of the Incarnation, what it accomplished for us. YOu need to brush up on just what Christ accomplished for us, since it does not include saving us INTO A RELATIONSHIP.

 

[VCO]

'Where is the word, justification ever used to mean one is saved? Prove your point, otherwise it is just an empty assertion.

Read it for yourself then:

JUSTIFICATION
A forensic term, opposed to condemnation. As regards its nature, it is the judicial act of God, by which he pardons all the sins of those who believe in Christ, and accounts, accepts, and treats them as righteous in the eye of the law, i.e., as conformed to all its demands. In addition to the pardon (q.v.) of sin, justification declares that all the claims of the law are satisfied in respect of the justified.
Illustrated Bible Dictionary: And Treasury of Biblical History, Biography, Geography, Doctrine, and Literature.

[FONT=&quot]JUSTIFICATION[/FONT]
Divine, forensic act of God, based on the work of Christ upon the cross, whereby a sinner is pronounced righteous by the imputation of the righteousness of Christ. The doctrine of justification is developed most fully by the Apostle Paul as the central truth explaining how both Jew and Gentile can be made right before God on the exact same basis, that being faith in Jesus Christ. Without this divine truth, there can be no unity in the body of Christ, hence its centrality to Paul’s theology of the Church and salvation.

Holman Illustrated Bible Dictionary.

Perhaps the real problem is you have been writing your own definitions for several Christian terms.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Paul disagrees with you in Rom 5:18. The justification was life to all men. The other texts I quoted also states it was to all men. I Cor 15:12-22 does not use the word, but is describing the LIFE that was given to all men through Christ's resurrection.

Actually all men have faith as well, but I'm sure you will change that as well.
But in any case you need to brush up some more on your understanding of the Incarnation, what it accomplished for us. YOu need to brush up on just what Christ accomplished for us, since it does not include saving us INTO A RELATIONSHIP.

why do you ignore the question?

are you perfect?

If no. How do yuo plan on making yourself perfect? Since that is required to enter the presence of God (go to heaven)

You keep ignoring.

I must only assume,

1. You do not know
2. You are afraid to answer?

which is it?

 

[thecreationtutor]

A contradicting statement if there ever was one.

and the dribble you posted above this statement?