Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[mailmandan]

Jesus NEVER said to believe only to be saved. If He did then He contradicted Himself.

Believe only in Christ for salvation (not believe only in the sense that we never repented) which we won't do unless we first repent. No contradiction at all. Just you continuing to misunderstand.

Jn 3:16------believeth>>>>>>>>>>not perish/saved
Lk 13:3,5---repent>>>>>>>>>>>>not perish/saved

Why do you continue to reverse the scriptural order of repent and believe? Mere "mental assent" belief followed by self moral reformation does not equate to repent and believe the gospel.

Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.

Mark 1:15 - Repent and believe the gospel.

Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jesus made repentance of equal importance and necessity to not perishing (saved) as He did belief. This means all the belief only in the world will never save an impenitent person.

Belief only in that sense is not saving belief in Christ. The demons "believe" that "there is one God" but they don't repent and believe the gospel. By the time that you reverse the scriptural order of repent and believe to be saved, you have the belief of demons joined to self moral reformation, which is not what it means to repent and believe the gospel in order to be saved.

Jesus also made confession and baptism of the same equal importance and necessity of belief and Jesus never contradicted Himself by saying belief only saves.

Jesus did not say what you are saying. Jesus did not give us a 4 step check list in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26. Those who believe have already repented and belief and confession are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together (Romans 10:8-10). Water baptism FOLLOWS repent and believe the gospel/believes unto righteousness/confession made unto salvation (Acts 10:43-47).

You posted yourself (my emp) "If we don't repent "change our mind" and BELIEVE then we won't be saved." You killed the man-made belief only theology yourself. Or will you backtrack and claim belief only really saves repentance is not necessary?

I NEVER said that repentance is not necessary for salvation BUT I don't place repent after believe in Christ for salvation. We are not saved by belief only in the sense that you are talking about, believe but never repented, which is an oxymoron. We believe only in Christ for salvation. We believe/trust in CHRIST ALONE for salvation. If we believe/trust in works to save us, then we never repented and we don't believe the gospel.

Rom 10:10 ...confession is made unto salvation..confession id not made because one is already saved.

Believes unto righteousness/confession is made unto salvation - chronologically together (Romans 10:8-10) and this is BEFORE water baptism, even in your 4 step check list.

BY trying to get one saved by belief only with no confession does not save (Jn 12:42),

The word of faith is in our mouth AND in our heart and not just one or the other. Not in our heart only, so it's not belief only in that sense. I already explained John 12:42. According to your interpretation of John 12:42, Peter denied Christ three times so he will be denied by the Father. So then Peter is not in heaven?

it is trying to get one saved that denies Jesus is the son of God and denies the facts of the gospel/death burial resurrection of Christ.

For those who truly believe and are saved, they repented and the word of faith is in their mouth and in their heart - TOGETHER and they do not deny the facts of the gospel. You make this soooo complicated.

In Mt 10:32.33 Jesus said "whosoever confesseth me" and "whosoever shall deny Me" The word whosoever refers to anyone and everyone not just those who were already His disciples.

Who confesses Jesus? - BELIEVERS. Who denies Jesus? - UNBELIEVERS. That is the whole point of what is said in Matthew 10:32-33. Also, the word for "deny" is an aorist tense. This points to the fact that Jesus is not talking about a single instance of denial (as was the case with Peter, who actually denied Him three times - Luke 22:34), but is referring to life in its entirety. You continue to overlook this.

Christ most certainly did "patch together" belief, repentance, confession and baptism, patch them all together on how one is to be saved.

Jesus said;
belief saves, Jn 8:24
repentance saves, Lk 13:3,5
confession saves, Mt 10:32,33
baptism saves Mk 16:16

No, Jesus did not "patch together" these 4 steps in that order with the same meaning and interpretation that you give them. Your 4 step plan of salvation is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics.

Jesus made each and every one of equal imprtance and necessity to salvation and he put all of them BEFORE salvation not after.

No He did not. Those who confess Christ throughout their lifetime are already saved. Those who deny Christ throughout their lifetime are lost. There is a difference between believes unto righteousness/confession made unto salvation upon conversion and confessing Christ throughout our lifetime because we are already saved. Those who believe and are saved have already repented and have already received remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18). You just can't accept that Christ is the all sufficient means of our salvation so you add supplements to the gospel in order to make salvation based on your works. You want credit for salvation.

The man-made teaching of faith only must therefore rip these words of Jesus apart creating a whole host of contradictions in trying to find a way to save the impenitent, the denier of Christ and those in their unremitted sins.

Again, keep in mind that "faith only" - per James - that you continue to allude to is not genuine faith, but an empty profession of faith, a dead faith and is not what I'm teaching saves. Those who believe and are saved have already repented. The word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart together, so it's not one or the other. Those who believe and are saved afterwards get water baptized. Your "add 3 additional steps to becoming saved after one believes" plan of salvation rips the words of Jesus apart in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6;29,40,47; 11:25,26. A saved believer is not an impenitent, denier of Christ. You still just DON'T GET IT.

The devils believe but is is just a mental assent of the mind for their belief does not contain the necessary works in repenting of sins. confessing Christ and submitting to baptism for remission of sins.

The devils believe "mental assent" that there is "one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation which demonstrates that they never repented and the word of faith is not in their mouth or in there heart. Of course they won't submit to baptism because they reject Christ as their Savior. Baptism is in regards to the remission of sins received upon repentance/belief (Acts 3:19; 10:43). Faith is implied in genuine repentance, two sides to the same coin.

A belief that supposedly has "trust and reliance" in Christ but does NOT DO what Christ said (Lk 6:46) is also nothing more than a mental assent of the mind, it is a vain belief (Mt 15:8,9)

Saving belief, which is "trust and reliance" (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ for salvation that refuses to ever do what Christ said is an OXYMORON. Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is evidenced/substantiated/confirmed by good works (James 2:14-24). You have a terrible time understanding this balance. Those who trust in works for salvation and not in Christ alone still need to repent and believe the gospel.

 

[JaumeJ]

Much ado. Let us praise Jesus Christ for His mercy, forgiveness and all bounty, amen.

 

[KenAllan]

Romans 1:17
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."

We are to live by Faith, not by our Works.

Romans 4:1-8
[SUP]1 [/SUP] What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
[SUP]6 [/SUP] just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
[SUP]7 [/SUP] "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin."

Abraham had Faith way back in the O.T. The Thief on the cross had Faith. Faith did not come into the World long after Jesus died, Faith was in the World long before Jesus died on the cross.

We receive Righteousness apart from Works, not by Works like SeaBass teaches. Who are we True Christians to listen to? God and His Truths or SeaBass and his lies?

Romans 5:17
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

We have received an abundance of Grace and the gift of righteousness from God, so why is SeaBass trying to Work for these Gifts?

Its true we need to do the Will of the Father,(works), but are we to do it with Love or are we to do it because SeaBass says its mandatory? If you are doing the Will of the Father because its mandatory then you are not doing it in Love. Then what you are doing become wages due to you. But the one who does not work but does it in Love our faith is accounted for righteousness.

In this World there are many who love to claim that only they have the Truth and we are to follow them instead of God. Listen to what the Holy Spirit says in your Hearts. Listen to what the Holy Spirit has written in the Scriptures. Do not listen to mere men who pervert the Scriptures to their own destruction.

Philippians 3:17-19
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
[SUP]19 [/SUP] whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame--who set their mind on earthly things.

 

[Elin]

Saving belief, which is "trust and reliance" (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ for salvation that refuses to ever do what Christ said is
an OXYMORON. Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is evidenced/substantiated/confirmed by good works (James 2:14-24). You have a terrible time understanding this balance. Those who trust in works for salvation and not in Christ alone still need to repent and believe the gospel.

Yeah. . .like becoming a runner, having never ever run, and still being a runner anyway.

Or like faith is a gift in that God allows us to have it. . .

like my paycheck is a gift in that my boss allows me to have it.

It's the darkness of blindness. . .

 

[Elin]

Much ado. Let us praise Jesus Christ for His mercy, forgiveness and all bounty, amen.

And the gospel of so great a salvation by grace. . .

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yeah. . .like becoming a runner, having never ever run, and still being a runner anyway.

Or like faith is a gift in that God allows us to have it. . .

like my paycheck is a gift in that my boss allows me to have it.

It's the darkness of blindness. . .

the difference being you earned your check. you can never earn your faith. Your faith can only be earned by the work of the one your placing your faith in.

 

[Elin]

the difference being you earned your check. you can never earn your faith. Your faith can only be earned by the work of the one your placing your faith in.

And whose gift it is.

 

[SeaBass]

Here it's important to demonstrate what it means to do righteousness. Again many people, including yourself, construe this to mean obeying the law. : whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God,

What does it mean to "do righteousness"? It is something you do that makes you righteous. It is not merely referring to some good deed or works that you do. If somebody who rejects Jesus as their Lord and Savior, then goes out and does some really good work such as giving a large donation to help the poor or does some incredible feat such as risking his life to save somebody else, is he therefore made righteous? Does his good and righteous deeds that he did mean that he is a righteous person? No, it doesn't. How do we know? Cause the bible says, there is none that doeth good, no, not one. And, [SUP]20[/SUP]For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

So since the bible says that every single person in the world is an unrighteous sinner, how does one "do righteousness"? What can one do to become righteous? Not good works, that's for for sure. Well it seems to me since everybody is an unrighteous sinner, (even if they do good works and are sweet and nice people), then that means that the only way to become righteous is to have your sins forgiven you and to have righteousness imputed upon you by faith. So, what do you need to do in order for that to happen? I'm sure you already know the answer but I'll tell you anyway. Believe in Jesus, confess Him as your Lord and Savior. Once you have done this you have done righteousness and, therefore, righteousness is imputed upon you by faith, and all your sins and disobedience are forgiven you forever. your unrighteousness is washed away and righteousness has replaced it. It's all a work of God, and His righteousness, not your own works and righteousness.

Psa 119:172 ".... for all thy commandments are righteousness."

God's commandments = righteousness and in Rom 10:3 the Jews were lost for they had not obeyed the righteouness/commands of God, they would not believe nor confess, that is, they would not obey the gospel, Rom 10:16


Doing righteousness does not mean keeping the OT law of Moses but keeping Christ's NT gospel (Gal 2:21). Righteousness come through Christ and His gospel. Christ/the gospel commands one to believe and those that believe are doing righteousness. The gospel commands men to repent and those that do are doing righteousness.

So I agree that just doing good deeds does not make one righteous....one must do God's commands to be righteous. 1 Jn 3:7 says "he that doeth righteousness is righteous" And my signature line below from 1 Jn 3:10 he that continues to not do righteousness continues to not be of God. An atheist can go about doing all the good deeds he cares to but that can never make him righteous. He must obey God's commands in believing, repenting, confessing and submitting to baptism to be made righteous.

Again, to be righteous one must do GOD'S righteousness/commands and not his OWN righteousness....even though there is a straw man the keeps showing up accusing me doing my OWN righteousness when I am doing GOD'S righteousness. Some here refuse to differentiate between the two.

 

[SeaBass]

Only in your darkened mind. . .

Seabass: Some here are saying God will save, perfect, sanctify those that deny Him.

Elin: Only in your darkened mind...

There are those here who are saying one can be saved by BELIEF ONLY that is, one can be saved WITHOUT confessing and if one does not profess Christ he is denying Christ. SO when you struggle to get one saved/perfected/sanctified BEFORE doing the work of confessing, then you are saying God will save/perfect/sanctify those they deny Christ.

 

[SeaBass]

Like a distinction without a difference is a valid argument. . .

Seabass:It is a straw man telling lies when I have shown from Rom 10:3 over and over that one doing his OWNrighteousness does not save but submitting/obeying GOD'S will is what saves. . .
you have no other valid argument.



Elin: Like a distinction without a difference is a valid argument. . .


Seabass: there is a clear difference between doing one's OWN righteousness and one doing GOD'S righteousness. It is a difference evidently your theology will not allow you to see, a difference between being saved and lost according to Rom 10:3.


Noah was commanded to build an ark to the saving of his house (Heb 11:7) and Noah obeyed. In building the ark as God instructed Noah was doing GOD'S righteousness and did not do his OWN righteousness by ignoring God and do what he wanted to do instead of doing what God told him to do.

 

[SeaBass]

A distinction without a difference. . .

Again, your theology cannot allow you to see the clear difference/distinction in Rom 10:3.

 

[SeaBass]

I think a study of James tells us that our salvation is not secured by works but it is demonstrated by works!

James: "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
Str8aero: not by works a man is jusified

 

[SeaBass]

Who is saying that? You have to confess Christ as your Lord and Saviour, then He comes into your life and washes you clean of all your sins and gives you His free gift of everlasting life without you doing any works or good deeds to deserve it.

Seabass: Some here are saying God will save, perfect, sanctify those that deny Him. That one does not have to do the work of confessing Christ for God will go ahead and save, perfect and sanctify those that deny Christ.

Delivery: Who is saying that?

Seabass: anyone who is saying one is saved by belief only is saying that for they are claiming one can be saved/perfected/sanctified BEFORE and WITHOUT having done the work of confessing.

 

[SeaBass]

Only problem is he called it the work of God, not the work of man.

Just because they asked for a work of man does not obligate Jesus to give them a work of man, when none exists.

It is the "work of God" for God is the genesis of the work, just as when one goes to work he is doing the "work of his employer". The employer does not do the work himself, he has given YOU that work to do just as God does not do the work of believing Himself, He has given YOU that work to do.

 

[SeaBass]

Previously addressed. . .above.

Mt 7:21 still says those that DOETH the will of the Father enter the kingdom.. It does NOT say those that do NO WORKS enter the kingdom.

 

[SeaBass]

The bible also tells us how to save ourselves.

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
[SUP]10[/SUP]For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9[/SUP] Not of works, lest any man should boast.

It's all about faith in Jesus, not about works. You're saved by Faith, not works, the scriptures are clear as a bell if your willing to receive it.

Yes, one "saves himself" by DOING God's commands/righteousness. Any man therefore that chooses to obey the will of God in believing, repenting, confessing and submitting to baptism as God says to do, is in that sense saving himself. Just as those in Acts 2 those chose to obey Peter's command to repent and be baptized were in that sense saving themselves. Those that do not do what God says are in that sense losing themselves.

The "not of works" in Eph 2:9 refers to works of merit and NOT doing GOD'S righteousness in believing repenting confessing and submitting to baptism. No one can be saved without working God's righteousness so 'not of works" cannot not, does not include submitting to the righteousness of God per Rom 10:3. When one pulls "not of works" out of the bible and isolates it from all other bible verses and then claims salvation is not of any work at all he creates a whole host of contradictions.

If one can be saved/perfected/sanctified BEFORE and WITHOUT doing the wok of confession then you are claiming those that deny Christ can be saved/perfected'sanctified. Therefore if you isolate "not of works" from all other bible verses then you most certainly are claiming those that have not done the work of confessing Christ can be saved anyway.

So does "not of works" EXCLUDE one from doing the works of believing repenting confessing and submitting to baptism for remission of sins in order to be saved? Yes? No?

 

[SeaBass]

Previously addressed. . .above.

Those examples of spiritual dead people doing things are still in the bible.

 

[SeaBass]

Can a, could a, would a, should a.

The Word of God says,
Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you SHALL BE SAVED.
No ifs, ands, or butts.

The question is the order:
Bible order Eph 2 is
1) faith in the Savior,
2) new birth, recreated with new nature,
3) eternal life,
4) good works.

For by grace you have been saved through faith . . . not of works!
Salvation is unto good works, not because of good works.

Good works inevitable follow regeneration & are the evidence of it, not the cause of it.

And remember:
I was alive apart from the law once,
but when the law came, sin revived & I died . . .
I am carnal, sold under sin.
For what the law could not do because flesh-weakness, God Did!

My question was: Can a Christian (one with faith) not have good works and his faith only (void of good works) save him anyway?


You avoided answering it.


You cannot answer "no" for that would kill you faith only argument.
You cannot answer "yes" for that goes against the bible verses that show a Christian must do good works or else be lost, Eph 2:10; Matt 25;31-46. So avoided answering it.


You continue to pull "not of works" of Eph 2:9 out of context, isolate it from all other verses and then wrongly proclaim one can be saved without doing any works at all. Eph 2:10 proves that idea to be wrong for a Christain cannot maintain his savlation without doing good works. Furthermore you are trying to save one BEFORE and WITHOUT him doing the WORKS of believing repenting confessing and submitting to baptism for remission of sins.

 

[SeaBass]

Nor does Ro 5:17 it say it is given conditionally, so you likewise assume that it is.

And that contrary to the meaning of "gift," which you thereby make into a wage.

Other verses as Rom 5:1,2 show one must CONDITIONALLY have faith to receive the free gift of righteousness. SO where id the verse that shows one receives it UNconditionally?

 

[SeaBass]

The Lord saves, sanctifies & perfects all kinds of sinners, even deniers, when such persons trust Christ as Savior. Their denial is forgiven -- denial is one of the sins for which Christ died. Even the denials of SeaBass can be forgiven, if He will trust Christ as His only & sufficient Savior (which implies not trusting in water or one's good works).

And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, 2 wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; 3 among whom we also all once lived in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:— 4 but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), 6 and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: 7 that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus: 8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not of works, that no man should glory. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.

If God UNCONDITIONALLY sanctifies sinners then why aren't ALL sinners saved? Because God does not do this yet God santifies those sinners that CONDITIONALLY obey Christ (Heb 5:9) by believing repenting, confessing and submitting to baptism for remission of sins.