Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[Elin]

...without merit....

No demonstration here. . .

 

[Elin]

Christ does not do the works of believing, repenting, confessing or submitting to baptism for you. Those are works Christ has given to man to do. Christ did His work in coming to earth and dying upon the cross for every man, Heb 5:9. If Christ's work in doing this is all that is necessary then every man will be saved...but that is not the case, Mt 7:13. Evidently, dying on the cross is Christ's work/role in man's salvation and obeying Christ in believing, repenting, confessing and submitting to baptism is man's work/role. Every man will not be saved for every man will not do his work/role in his own salvation Phil 2:12.

SDA baloney. . .

 

[mailmandan]

Summation: those with no works have failed in doing the will of God.

The will of God is not salvation by works, as you have twisted these passages to teach. Those who do not believe have failed in doing the will of God by looking to the Son and choosing to believe in Him to receive eternal life (John 6:40). Faith is the root and works are the fruit of salvation. Those with no works demonstrate they have no faith (James 2:14). There is a difference between doing God's will in order to become saved and doing God's will after we have been saved through faith. In either sense, only BELIEVERS do God's will. Unbelievers do not do God's will no matter how many so called good works that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain attempt to be saved by works.

Therefore since it's God's will that men believe that means believing is DOING, believing is a work as Jesus said it is in Jn 6:27-29. No verse says it God's will men "believe only" or do "no works" as it has been demonstrated meany times a NT belief INCLUDES repentance, confession and baptism and remains DEAD without these things.

You keep posting that if one does not repent he cannot believe. That means 'belief only' cannot save but one must have repentance AND belief, right? Yes, that's right. You say yourself "Repent and believe are obviously necessary for salvation." You kill the false 'belief only' theology yourself. So why would you continue to push the idea that faith only saves when a faith void of repentance does not save ACCORDING to YOUR OWN WORDS?

Just because Jesus said in many verses that one must "believe" but did not mention repentance, confession or baptism in all those verses does not in any way mean repentance confession and baptism is not necessary. In Lk 13:3 Jesus said to repent or perish. If repentance were not mentioned anywhere else by Christ, this ONE verse would be sufficient enough for repentance being necessary to being saved/not perishing. For anyone to try and argue that since Christ did not specifically mention "repentance" in every verse He spoke about "believing" means repentance is not necessary would be horrible exegesis while creating a host of contradictions among verses. A correct study of the bible would show that he word 'believe" includes repentance as the word "believed" in Acts 2:44 includes being baptized per Acts 2:41.

I have already thoroughly explained this to you in post #5099, but unfortunately the truth just continues to go right over your head. The word "believe" includes repentance because repentance already took place in the process of changing our mind and choosing to believe. Those who truly believe that is. Those who trust in works for salvation still need to repent and believe the gospel. The word "believed" does not include water baptism as water baptism FOLLOWS saving belief in Christ. Read Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?" When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles (repentance included, already took place) - repentance unto life. It was established that they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and received the gift of the Holy Spirit BEFORE water baptism. Acts 10:43 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. (*what happened to baptism?) 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. 47 Then Peter answered, "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" - ***BEFORE WATER BAPTISM*** So baptism IS NOT INCLUDED in BELIEVES IN HIM, baptism FOLLOWS.

In 1 Pet 3:21 Peter said baptism saves. Does that mean baptism ALONE saves, that is, one does NOT have to believe, repent or confess to be saved but be baptized ALONE? No, baptism in this verses is used as a synecdoche where it INCLUDES belief repentance and baptism just as 'believe" is used in many verses as a synecdoche where it includes repentance confession and baptism. Therefore just a 1Pet 3:21 does NOT mean baptism ALONE saves, verses as Jn 3:15,16,18; Jn 5:24; Jn 6:29 etc do NOT mean belief ONLY saves. If Jn 3:16 can mean belief ALONE saves, then why doesn't 1 Pet 3:21 mean baptism ALONE saves or Lk 13:3 mean repentance ALONE saves or Mt 10:32,33 means confession ALONE saves? The man-made teaching of belief only creates contradictions to God's word and therefore is not a part of God's word.

No, belief is not a synecdoche for these 4 steps. That argument is simply church of Christ "smoke and mirrors." I have already thoroughly explained repent/believe/confess to you from these passages of scripture. I am really getting tired of arguing with a blind man, but for the sake of others, I continue to defend the truth. 1 Peter 3:21 tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He says that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not the part which saves you), "but an appeal to God from a good conscience" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).

Our belief is a work and is a dead belief if it is not a work. If one's belief does not include the work of repentance then he has a dead belief only and all the belief only in the world cannot keep the impenitent person from perishing, Lk 13:3,5.

If one has not truly repented then he does not believe. If one truly believes then he already repented. Again, mere mental assent belief (that falls short of belief, trust, reliance in Christ alone for salvation) is not saving belief, so repentance is invalid, confession is merely lip service and baptism is just a sinner getting wet. These 4 steps in that order using your poor semantics and flawed hermeneutics will not save. Let me know when you finally allow the Holy Spirit to convict your heart of the truth and you are ready to repent and believe the gospel.

 

[mailmandan]

You have said one must repent AND believe. Therefore believing is not possible if one does not first repent making repentance just as essential to salvation as believing. You say yourself "Repent and believe are obviously necessary for salvation." (my emp)

Repent and believe are two sides to the same coin. Change your mind and trust in Christ alone for salvation. It's really simple, but you make it hard. Those who truly repent "change their mind" - new direction of this change of mind - "faith in Christ alone for salvation." If we don't repent then we won't believe. If we believe then we already repented. Simple! Why do you reverse the scriptural order of repent and believe? (Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21).

So must one repent AND believe to be saved or just believe only to be saved?

Duh, there must be a change of mind before we believe what we did not previously believe, that is IN CHRIST FOR SALVATION. Who said anything about "believe only" void of repentance? That is not genuine saving belief in Christ and at best is mere mental assent belief, like the belief of demons - James 2:19. They believe that "there is one God" but they don't believe in Christ for salvation. They have not repented. Huge difference. You make this out to be WAY more complicated than it really is.

 

[mailmandan]

Since Jn 3:18 does not say "He who repents and believes in Him is not condemned" - since repentance is NOT specifically mentioned in this verse does that mean repentance is NOT necessary even though you have said "Repent and believe are obviously necessary for salvation."?

Repentance is necessary for salvation but does not need to be specifically mentioned in John 3:18 because those who "believe in Him" HAVE ALREADY REPENTED. If we don't repent then we won't believe. When will you get that through your head? Works which follow "after" we believe in Him need to be specifically mentioned if they were necessary for salvation or else Jesus did not give us the whole message in John 3:18 and if you can believe that, you can believe anything!

 

[FancyNancy]

A man can never be in a relationship with God as long has he disobeys God's will.

See my signature line below, 1 Jn 3:10...as long as one CONTINUES to NOT do righteousness he CONTINUES to NOT be of God. Therefore if anyone desires to be "of God" then he must DO RIGHTEOUSNESS. AS Peter said in Acts 10:35 he that WORKETH RIGHTEOUSNESS is accepted with God. Some here on this forum continue to try and rewrite the bible in trying to find a way to get one to be "of God" WITHOUT having to work righteousness which is impossible making the "no works -faith only" theology foreign to the bible's teachings.

Coming to Christ IS MOST CERTAINLY AN ACT OF OBEDIENCE. It is the total opposite of "no works" false theology.

Lk 6:46 Why call ye Me Lord, Lord and DO NOT the things which I say" So Jesus is not and cannot be the Lord of those with no works, those that do not.

Jn 14:15 "If ye love Me, keep my commandments" No obedience proves no love for Christ.

Disobedience is a hindrance to fellowship with God, but no one has the power to obey Him without the Holy Spirit indwelling. That is to say one needs to have experienced salvation to be able or even to desire to obey God. Sinners don't give a fig.

 

[Elin]

Repent and believe are two sides to the same coin. Change your mind and trust in Christ alone for salvation. It's really simple, but you make it hard. Those who truly repent "change their mind" -

That is the Biblical meaning of the word "repent."

It's not about weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth. . .then believing.

It's about one's mind being changed in/through belief.
It's all the same process.

new direction of this change of mind - "faith in Christ alone for salvation." If we don't repent then we won't believe. If we believe then we already repented. Simple! Why do you reverse the scriptural order of repent and believe? (Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21).

Duh, there must be a change of mind before we believe what we did not previously believe, that is IN CHRIST FOR SALVATION. Who said anything about "believe only" void of repentance? That is not genuine saving belief in Christ and at best is mere mental assent belief, like the belief of demons - James 2:19. They believe that "there is one God" but they don't believe in Christ for salvation. They have not repented. Huge difference. You make this out to be WAY more complicated than it really is.

 

[mailmandan]

Disobedience is a hindrance to fellowship with God, but no one has the power to obey Him without the Holy Spirit indwelling. That is to say one needs to have experienced salvation to be able or even to desire to obey God. Sinners don't give a fig.

SeaBass remains really confused. He thinks that a person does/practices righteousness in order to become a child of God, instead of BECAUSE they are a child of God. He is determined to make "works" the means of salvation. 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. Believers practice righteousness BECAUSE they are children of God, NOT to become children of God. He has it backwards.

In regards to Acts 10:35, working righteousness is the result of an already established faith. We are not saved by works of righteousness (Titus 3:5), but works of righteousness in connection with salvation are the fruit of, not the means of salvation. SeaBass has it backwards once again. This verse gives a description of a saved believer, not a prerequisite for salvation. Those who work righteousness do so as the result of already having been saved through faith (Ephesians 2:8-10).

In regards to Luke 6:46, it's not sufficient to give mere lip service to Christ. Doing what Jesus says after we have been saved through faith is the RESULT of salvation, not the cause. Doing what Jesus says demonstrates that we are Christians. This confirms our faith but it does not establish it. Having faith and being a Christian yet producing no works at all is an OXYMORON.

In regards to John 14:15, we demonstrate our love for Christ by keeping His commandments and we do this BECAUSE we are saved, not to become saved.

1 John 2:3 - Now by this we know that we (already) know Him, (demonstrative evidence) - if we keep His commandments.

1 John 2:4 - He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

By the way, the Greek word for "keep" is "tereo" - Strongs #5083 and means to keep, to guard, to watch over, preserve.

 

[KenAllan]

You still do not understand SeaBass what the Holy Spirit is saying in the Scriptures. Could this be because you do not have the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

Its the Holy Spirit that teaches us what He is saying in the Scriptures.

1 Corinthians 2:9-13
[SUP]9 [/SUP] but just as it is written, " THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM."
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man, which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things freely given to us by God,
[SUP]13 [/SUP] which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.

We are taught by the Holy Spirit the Spiritual things in the Scriptures. We are not to listen to mere men who teaches not the Truth in the Scriptures.

Could it be SeaBass that the reason you are teaching Salvation by Works is because you do not have the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

Remember that even Jesus Christ Himself said that not all who claim to follow Him are His Children.

Matthew 7:21-23
[SUP]21 [/SUP] " Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] " Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
[SUP]23 [/SUP] "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Is teaching Salvation by Works doing the Will of the Father? Is deceiving people into working for their Salvation doing the Will of the Father? No it is not.

The Thief on the cross is a good example of Salvation. You can deny it all you want SeaBass but the Thief on the Cross did enter into Heaven without being Baptized.

Why SeaBass are you trying to put such a heavy burden on people by demanding they do the Works that you demand they do?

Clearly the Holy Spirit teaches we receive Salvation only by Faith and Grace and not by works.

Ephesians 2:8-9
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not as a result of works, that no one should boast.

God is not a mean demanding God. God Loves us and wants everyone be in Heaven with Him. Its people like you SeaBass that demand people follow what you say and not what the Holy Spirit says.

We are not to listen to men, we are taught by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Jeff_56]

maybe the TITLE is wrong. should it be "salvation not possible here." ?

 

[MikeHenderson]

Matthew 7:15-21
[SUP]15 [/SUP] "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes, nor figs from thistles, are they?
[SUP]17 [/SUP] "Even so, every good tree bears good fruit; but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] " Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] "So then, you will know them by their fruits.

What fruits are you producing SeaBass?

Is teaching Salvation by works producing good fruits or bad fruits?

A good tree cannot produce bad fruits just as a bad tree cannot produce good fruits. You SeaBass are producing bad fruits by demanding everybody listen to you instead of listening to the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 2:8-9
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not as a result of works, that no one should boast.

Clearly the Holy Spirit teaches us here that Salvation is NOT the result of Works. You can work all you want SeaBass but you cannot receive Salvation by your Works. Salvation is a gift, its not something we have to work for SeaBass.

You can try all you want to work for your Salvation SeaBass, God will allow you to do so, but God will never give you your Salvation by your works.

Since a good tree cannot produce bad fruits SeaBass means you are not a True Christian. This is why you are teaching Salvation by works because you do not have the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit who does teach us all Truths.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Disobedience is a hindrance to fellowship with God, but no one has the power to obey Him without the Holy Spirit indwelling. That is to say one needs to have experienced salvation to be able or even to desire to obey God. Sinners don't give a fig.

Amen, As scripture says we love (obey) only because he loved (we experienced first hand in salvation) us first.

If we have not experienced his love, we can not love (obey)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The christian life and recieving blessing from God is not possible without works (acts of faith)

But you can work every day from now until you die 24/7, and you will still not earn enough brownie points to save your big toe, let alone your eternal soul!