A new look at Galatians

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Oct 31, 2011
8,200
182
0
#1
.Any time there is a discussion of law, the book of Galatians is quoted as proof against law.

“For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God."
"Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?"
"It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery."
18 "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law."

Yet, scripture gives verse after verse upholding law.
Romans 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

John 14:21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”

Galatians 3:21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.

I found a study that explains Galatians through a thorough study of all scripture that applies, and a study of the times surrounding the letter that is almost like going back into the life of the Galatians. It isn’t an easy study, it is an outline that can take weeks to do. It isn’t for the casual Christian. It would be hard to skim it, but even that would be helpful. It is 126 pages long, packed with scriptures to look up. It is a study that could not be done before the last years archeological finds. A study that bridges the time between the people God used to explain and us.

It is written by Richard Spurlock who is a Torah observant believer in Christ. If you are anti-Semitic or deeply into opposition to anything you could label Judaism, you probably would use the study only to reinforce your beliefs, but I promise you it would be an interesting study that you would benefit from, either as for law or against it.

http://www.bereansonline.org/studies/Galatians.pdf
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,780
2,940
113
#2
You better read Acts 15 again. That was the Jerusalem Council, where the elders and apostles met to decide that Gentile Christian did NOT have to obey the Mosaic law.

See the post on Acts 15 for my full exegesis.

As for you, Redtent, good to see you posting different verses. Well done! Now all you have to do is learn to read them in context.

"O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? [SUP]3 [/SUP]Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? [SUP]4 [/SUP]Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? [SUP]5 [/SUP]Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith[SUP]6 [/SUP]just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?" Gal. 3:1-3

"Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. [SUP]22 [/SUP]But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.[SUP]23[/SUP]Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed.[SUP]24 [/SUP]So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. [SUP]25[/SUP]But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, [SUP]26 [/SUP]for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. " Gal. 3:21-26.

As you see, in context in Galatians, Paul is talking about the fact that we can not be saved by the law, or stay saved by keeping it. In fact, what Paul says in the NEXT verse after 3:21, is in fact, the law was given because of our sin, and it IMPRISONS and TAKES CAPTIVE everyone who does not have faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross.

As far as Romans 2:13 keep on reading.

"But if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast in God [SUP]18 [/SUP]and know his will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed from the law; and if you are sure that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness,[SUP]20 [/SUP]an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth—" Romans 3:17-20

"For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God." Romans 3:28-29

Of course, the whole of Romans really needs to be read, because the first chapters are all about sin and about how no one can obey the law, and that is why we need the grace and mercy of God. Because it is a matter of the heart, by the spirit, not the letter of the law.

As for John 14, Jesus was sharing with his disciples, and the commandment he was talking about, in context of the chapter and the book, is from John 13. Please remember there were no chapters and verse divisions when John wrote this gospel.

So the continuity goes back to John 13:34-35

"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. [SUP]35 [/SUP]By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” John 13:34-35

Context, context, context! No cherry picking allowed.

And Redtent, I must also note your excellent use of red for Scripture verses. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery!!

LOL. Seriously, I don't care what colour or font anyone uses, but in a Bible Discussion Forum, I like the scripture verses should stand out.

But a perilously weak case here for following the instructions in the Old Covenant, once again.
 
Oct 31, 2011
8,200
182
0
#3
You better read Acts 15 again. That was the Jerusalem Council, where the elders and apostles met to decide that Gentile Christian did NOT have to obey the Mosaic law.

See the post on Acts 15 for my full exegesis.

As for you, Redtent, good to see you posting different verses. Well done! Now all you have to do is learn to read them in context.

"O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? [SUP]3 [/SUP]Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? [SUP]4 [/SUP]Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? [SUP]5 [/SUP]Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith[SUP]6 [/SUP]just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?" Gal. 3:1-3

"Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. [SUP]22 [/SUP]But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.[SUP]23[/SUP]Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed.[SUP]24 [/SUP]So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. [SUP]25[/SUP]But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, [SUP]26 [/SUP]for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. " Gal. 3:21-26.

As you see, in context in Galatians, Paul is talking about the fact that we can not be saved by the law, or stay saved by keeping it. In fact, what Paul says in the NEXT verse after 3:21, is in fact, the law was given because of our sin, and it IMPRISONS and TAKES CAPTIVE everyone who does not have faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross.

As far as Romans 2:13 keep on reading.

"But if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast in God [SUP]18 [/SUP]and know his will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed from the law; and if you are sure that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness,[SUP]20 [/SUP]an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth—" Romans 3:17-20

"For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God." Romans 3:28-29

Of course, the whole of Romans really needs to be read, because the first chapters are all about sin and about how no one can obey the law, and that is why we need the grace and mercy of God. Because it is a matter of the heart, by the spirit, not the letter of the law.

As for John 14, Jesus was sharing with his disciples, and the commandment he was talking about, in context of the chapter and the book, is from John 13. Please remember there were no chapters and verse divisions when John wrote this gospel.

So the continuity goes back to John 13:34-35

"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. [SUP]35 [/SUP]By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” John 13:34-35

Context, context, context! No cherry picking allowed.

And Redtent, I must also note your excellent use of red for Scripture verses. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery!!

LOL. Seriously, I don't care what colour or font anyone uses, but in a Bible Discussion Forum, I like the scripture verses should stand out.

But a perilously weak case here for following the instructions in the Old Covenant, once again.
So, it would be your decision to block out any scripture this person would suggest, or any history he gives based on labeling it Judiasm and in keeping with anti-Semitism. We have been over this before, and you have made this clear as your way of thinking.

It is not in keeping with your posting about how you have been to seminary and even study Hebrew. Scholars usually are open to learning, biblical scholars study bible and history of people of the bible, as this is. Of course I said "messianic" and "torah", such terrible words in your mind. Enough to bring about a posting like the one you made.
 

Timeline

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2014
1,826
17
38
#4
Isaiah 42
“Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold;
My chosen one in whom My soul delights.
I have put My Spirit upon Him;
He will bring forth justice to the nations.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]“He will not cry out or raise His voice,
Nor make His voice heard in the street.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]“A bruised reed He will not break
And a dimly burning wick He will not extinguish;
He will faithfully bring forth justice.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]“He will not be disheartened or crushed
Until He has established justice in the earth;
And the coastlands will wait expectantly for His law.”[SUP]5 [/SUP]Thus says God the Lord,
Who created the heavens and stretched them out,
Who spread out the earth and its offspring,
Who gives breath to the people on it
And spirit to those who walk in it,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]“I am the Lord, I have called You in righteousness,
I will also hold You by the hand and watch over You,
And I will appoint You as a covenant to the people,
As a light to the nations,
[SUP]7 [/SUP]To open blind eyes,
To bring out prisoners from the dungeon
And those who dwell in darkness from the prison.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]“I am the Lord, that is My name;
I will not give My glory to another,
Nor My praise to graven images.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]“Behold, the former things have come to pass,
Now I declare new things;
Before they spring forth I proclaim them to you.”


2 Corinthians 3[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech, [SUP]13 [/SUP]and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away. [SUP]14 [/SUP]But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. [SUP]15 [/SUP]But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; [SUP]16 [/SUP]but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. [SUP]18 [/SUP]But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
 

Timeline

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2014
1,826
17
38
#5
Different thread, same cloth.
 
Oct 31, 2011
8,200
182
0
#6
Angela, do you realize that you post to scold me for suggesting an in depth study of Galatians by quoting a few verses of that book. No history. No background scripture. No study. Not even the entire book. Just your usual judging. The same theme. No one should dare go into the OT for learning. It is Judaism, a teeerrrrible thing, Paul was against all of it. I should think that as a biblical scholar as you say you are, you would be for other people making an in depth study of a book of scripture instead of going on and on about how awful that would be.
 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
2,295
167
63
#7
.Any time there is a discussion of law, the book of Galatians is quoted as proof against law.

No, RedTent, Galatians is not quoted as proof against the Law, but of proof that those in Christ are no longer bound to keep Old Covenant Law.

The Law has a purpose after the Cross, and that is to bring believers to Christ (Gal. 3), and then the Law is done with us. It's purpose in one's life is fulfilled once one comes to Christ.

That is the proper use of the Law (1 Tim 1:8).


“For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God."
"Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?"
"It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery."
18 "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law."
Yet, scripture gives verse after verse upholding law.

Romans 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

John 14:21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”

Galatians 3:21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.


Angela covered the above pretty well; I won't repeat here for the sake of brevity.


I found a study that explains Galatians through a thorough study of all scripture that applies, and a study of the times surrounding the letter that is almost like going back into the life of the Galatians. It isn’t an easy study, it is an outline that can take weeks to do. It isn’t for the casual Christian. It would be hard to skim it, but even that would be helpful. It is 126 pages long, packed with scriptures to look up. It is a study that could not be done before the last years archeological finds. A study that bridges the time between the people God used to explain and us.
I'm always wary of any study from any source that takes scores of pages to exegete a short, six chapter letter. I skimmed the study, but one need only to read the introduction and the conclusion (which is a series of questions, not answers, oddly enough) to identify the false premise on which the study is built and the conclusion which reveals the double-minded end of the study.


It is written by Richard Spurlock who is a Torah observant believer in Christ. If you are anti-Semitic or deeply into opposition to anything you could label Judaism, you probably would use the study only to reinforce your beliefs, but I promise you it would be an interesting study that you would benefit from, either as for law or against it.
Nice.

Label any disagreement as anti-Semitism.

That ought to shut down most dissent.


RedTent, just because we disagree with what you and others believe doesn't make us anti-Semitic, but it does mean that we've taken a close look at what you believe and have chosen to disagree with it.

That's not racist, it's discernment. Big difference.


Let's try not to let anyone notice not only the double-mindedness but the downright schizophrenia present in just the 'About Us' page at the sight linked to above:

We are an online community of believers who endeavor to approach the Scriptures in context, with as little theological bias as possible.


And then they go on to list several contradictory theologies below:

For the moment, setting aside our position that what we do speaks far more about who we are than what we say we believe; we now engage in the silliness of a "what we believe" statement.
Recognizing that no one has a corner on the truth, and that many who truly love the G-d of Jacob have best exemplified the truths of Scriptures in some important and well-defined areas:


  • [*=1]
    Regarding the Oneness of G-d, we are Chassidic

    [*=1]
    Regarding Messiah, we are Messianic

    [*=1]
    Regarding the Holy Spirit, we are mystic

    [*=1]
    Regarding Grace, we are Calvinist

    [*=1]
    Regarding the written Torah, we are as Orthodox Judaism

    [*=1]
    Regarding our need for Messiah's atoning work, we are Christian

    [*=1]
    Regarding the Chosen People of G-d, Israel, we are Zionist

    [*=1]
    Regarding the life of Torah for Jew and Gentiles alike, we are "One King, One People, One Law" and we repudiate divisive doctrines such as "Divine Invitiation", Supercessionism, and "Bilateral Ecclesiology"


There are so many contradictions in belief systems in that short list that it's mind-numbing. Look up the definitions for the above points to see how ridiculous it is to combine them! They are incompatible and contradictory.




-JGIG​
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,704
3,649
113
#8
Angela, do you realize that you post to scold me for suggesting an in depth study of Galatians by quoting a few verses of that book. No history. No background scripture. No study. Not even the entire book. Just your usual judging. The same theme. No one should dare go into the OT for learning. It is Judaism, a teeerrrrible thing, Paul was against all of it. I should think that as a biblical scholar as you say you are, you would be for other people making an in depth study of a book of scripture instead of going on and on about how awful that would be.
Seems to me Angela wasn't scolding you but simply gave you some pointers in hermeneutics and she actually praised you in a couple of points.
 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
2,295
167
63
#9
So, it would be your decision to block out any scripture this person would suggest, or any history he gives based on labeling it Judiasm and in keeping with anti-Semitism. We have been over this before, and you have made this clear as your way of thinking.
More false boo-hooing about anti-Semitism so that you can post teaching that is derived from flawed sources unopposed and unchallenged.

It is not in keeping with your posting about how you have been to seminary and even study Hebrew. Scholars usually are open to learning, biblical scholars study bible and history of people of the bible, as this is.
Scholars are open to learning, but not so open-minded that their brains fall out!

The study you posted takes scores of pages to manipulate and rewrite the letter to the Galatians that is clear in a plain reading.

That's the problem for those who advocate Torah observance for believers; Paul's letter to the Galatians IS very clear, so it takes LOTS of manipulation and theological contraptions to force meanings into it that simply are not there.


Of course I said "messianic" and "torah", such terrible words in your mind. Enough to bring about a posting like the one you made.
Again with the boo-hooing with you mind-reading how someone else views the terms 'messianic' and 'Torah' so that you can discredit a post that makes valid points against your position. Don't look now, but when you do that, it gives the impression that you cannot defend your position, but must attack the person or call them racist instead of dealing with what they are actually posting.

Messianic, properly defined, means, "of the Messiah". Teachings which add to or take away from Christ Jesus' the Messiah's Work of the Cross, the Resurrection, the Ascension, and His High Priesthood are error, and are not 'Messianic'.

Torah, defined by Judaism, is the first five books of the Bible. The Bible simply defines towrah as instructions; law.

There is nothing objectionable (or 'terrible', ha) about either term, properly defined and applied.

So quit playing the race card, the willful ignorance card, and whatever other card you have up your sleeves and start defending what YOU believe with the contextual use of Scripture.

-JGIG
 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
2,295
167
63
#10
Isaiah 42
“Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold;
My chosen one in whom My soul delights.
I have put My Spirit upon Him;
He will bring forth justice to the nations.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]“He will not cry out or raise His voice,
Nor make His voice heard in the street.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]“A bruised reed He will not break
And a dimly burning wick He will not extinguish;
He will faithfully bring forth justice.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]“He will not be disheartened or crushed
Until He has established justice in the earth;
And the coastlands will wait expectantly for His law.”[SUP]5 [/SUP]Thus says God the Lord,
Who created the heavens and stretched them out,
Who spread out the earth and its offspring,
Who gives breath to the people on it
And spirit to those who walk in it,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]“I am the Lord, I have called You in righteousness,
I will also hold You by the hand and watch over You,
And I will appoint You as a covenant to the people,
As a light to the nations,
[SUP]7 [/SUP]To open blind eyes,
To bring out prisoners from the dungeon
And those who dwell in darkness from the prison.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]“I am the Lord, that is My name;
I will not give My glory to another,
Nor My praise to graven images.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]“Behold, the former things have come to pass,
Now I declare new things;
Before they spring forth I proclaim them to you.”


2 Corinthians 3[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech, [SUP]13 [/SUP]and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away. [SUP]14 [/SUP]But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. [SUP]15 [/SUP]But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; [SUP]16 [/SUP]but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. [SUP]18 [/SUP]But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
Check out Isaiah 54 and 55, as well. Awesome promises fulfilled in the New Covenant!

-JGIG
 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
2,295
167
63
#11
Angela, do you realize that you post to scold me for suggesting an in depth study of Galatians by quoting a few verses of that book. No history. No background scripture. No study. Not even the entire book. Just your usual judging. The same theme. No one should dare go into the OT for learning. It is Judaism, a teeerrrrible thing, Paul was against all of it. I should think that as a biblical scholar as you say you are, you would be for other people making an in depth study of a book of scripture instead of going on and on about how awful that would be.
Finally, my brothers, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you is no trouble to me and is safe for you.

2 Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh.

3 For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh— 4 though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more:

5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless.

7But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ.

8
Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— 10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.



-JGIG
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#12
It always, always, always comes back to the cross.
 
Oct 31, 2011
8,200
182
0
#13

No, RedTent, Galatians is not quoted as proof against the Law, but of proof that those in Christ are no longer bound to keep Old Covenant Law.

The Law has a purpose after the Cross, and that is to bring believers to Christ (Gal. 3), and then the Law is done with us. It's purpose in one's life is fulfilled once one comes to Christ.

That is the proper use of the Law (1 Tim 1:8).


Angela covered the above pretty well; I won't repeat here for the sake of brevity.

I'm always wary of any study from any source that takes scores of pages to exegete a short, six chapter letter. I skimmed the study, but one need only to read the introduction and the conclusion (which is a series of questions, not answers, oddly enough) to identify the false premise on which the study is built and the conclusion which reveals the double-minded end of the study.


Label any disagreement as anti-Semitism.
That ought to shut down most dissent.

RedTent, just because we disagree with what you and others believe doesn't make us anti-Semitic, but it does mean that we've taken a close look at what you believe and have chosen to disagree with it.

That's not racist, it's discernment. Big difference.


Let's try not to let anyone notice not only the double-mindedness but the downright schizophrenia present in just the 'About Us' page at the sight linked to above:
We are an online community of believers who endeavor to approach the Scriptures in context, with as little theological bias as possible.

And then they go on to list several contradictory theologies below:

For the moment, setting aside our position that what we do speaks far more about who we are than what we say we believe; we now engage in the silliness of a "what we believe" statement.
Recognizing that no one has a corner on the truth, and that many who truly love the G-d of Jacob have best exemplified the truths of Scriptures in some important and well-defined areas:


  • [*=1]
    Regarding the Oneness of G-d, we are Chassidic

    [*=1]
    Regarding Messiah, we are Messianic

    [*=1]
    Regarding the Holy Spirit, we are mystic

    [*=1]
    Regarding Grace, we are Calvinist

    [*=1]
    Regarding the written Torah, we are as Orthodox Judaism

    [*=1]
    Regarding our need for Messiah's atoning work, we are Christian

    [*=1]
    Regarding the Chosen People of G-d, Israel, we are Zionist

    [*=1]
    Regarding the life of Torah for Jew and Gentiles alike, we are "One King, One People, One Law" and we repudiate divisive doctrines such as "Divine Invitiation", Supercessionism, and "Bilateral Ecclesiology"


There are so many contradictions in belief systems in that short list that it's mind-numbing. Look up the definitions for the above points to see how ridiculous it is to combine them! They are incompatible and contradictory.
-JGIG​
Isn't it strange that you can read scripture, and I can, too, and you have a God that seems very strange to me, saying strange things to you. This study makes a case for what Paul meant by "law of Moses" for instance and you can not even hear what he found from studying writings of the time. Often, I see people using their opinions of a verse without checking how it fits with other verses. I made a list of some of your opinions for my bible study group to go over, it is the Nazarine Church (Wow, bet I hear how they are ALL wrong) and we find your conclusions just don't fit scripture. And you find the same about mine. I wonder what the Lord thinks about it all! One of us is wrong. Perhaps the Lord only sees if we do what the Lord's prayer outlines for us and allows us to see darkly.

If I see a scripture that doesn't agree with every other scripture, I dig and dig until I find out what God truly says about it. I think that is my biggest problem with the God you have. One of your scriptures says to listen to the law and obey, another says to only listen to the Holy Spirit the written law is a burden. You decide to listen to the scripture that says to only listen to the Holy Spirit, that lets you live as you like. My God never disagrees with Himself. I find my God in the word, in the bible, and you look there and find a God who seems strange to me.

I have no idea what your post about "they" who has contradictory theologies is all about. Frankly, I don't go by any "they". Calvin, Luther, Wesley, or any other "they". I go by scripture. The study I suggest isn't a "they", it talks about scripture, not one but many. I followed the study, and I couldn't find an agenda or a "they", it only talked about scripture and history.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,704
3,649
113
#14
If I see a scripture that doesn't agree with every other scripture, I dig and dig until I find out what God truly says about it. I think that is my biggest problem with the God you have. One of your scriptures says to listen to the law and obey, another says to only listen to the Holy Spirit the written law is a burden. You decide to listen to the scripture that says to only listen to the Holy Spirit, that lets you live as you like. My God never disagrees with Himself. I find my God in the word, in the bible, and you look there and find a God who seems strange to me.
I'm going to jump in here because you have accused me of the same thing.
Here are Scriptures which back up my view...

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. (Gal 5:16-18)

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
(Rom 8:4-5)

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
(Rom 8:12-14)


As you can see there are no Scriptures that say as you claim; "to only listen to the Holy Spirit, that lets you live as you like."
RedTent please name ONE TIME when I or someone with similar doctrine ever said ''live as you like?""
If you can't please quit falsely accusing us of such.
 
Last edited:
L

Least

Guest
#15
Hi Redtent,

I'm looking forward to reading through the article. Thank you for sharing the link. I bookmarked it to read as time allows.

The parts of the Mosaic law that are clearly seen in Acts 15 as well as several other chapters that follow make it clear that the instruction given by The " Jerusalem council," was very serious.

Sharing the different passages...just for clarity.

Acts 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Acts 15:22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Acts 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.


Jesus Himself spoke of this:

Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Matthew 15:20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.


Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Romans 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Romans 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Romans 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Romans 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Romans 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Romans 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness,
fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Romans 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

Romans 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

Romans 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Paul listed several of the commandments in the above passage, and this is a letter to the Romans? Gentiles?

1 Corinthians 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
1 Corinthians 5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
1 Corinthians 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1 Corinthians 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

In the above passage, Paul is scolding the Corinth's, (again, "Gentiles" according to whom the law of abstaining from fornication and things strangled was given.) We see clearly that there was a man involved with fornication...Vs. 6 concludes that this is also "leaven," a little compromise...accepting things that are not right, leavens the whole lump!

1 Corinthians 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?


1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1 Corinthians 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1 Corinthians 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1 Corinthians 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
1 Corinthians 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
1 Corinthians 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
1 Corinthians 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
1 Corinthians 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
1 Corinthians 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
1 Corinthians 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
2 Corinthians 12:20 For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:
2 Corinthians 12:21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.


Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Galatians 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Galatians 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


Again, all of the things listed here in the letter to the Galatians, are involved the Mosaic law...

Colossians 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Colossians 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Colossians 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Colossians 3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
Colossians 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.

Colossians 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
Colossians 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Colossians 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.



1 Thessalonians 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
1 Thessalonians 4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
1 Thessalonians 4:5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
1 Thessalonians 4:6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.


arrow.jpg The passages written to the churches in Revelation are speaking of those same laws given in acts ch. 15, and mentioned in several other chapters.

Revelation 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

Revelation 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.


Revelation 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
Revelation 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.


I know that this is a long post, consisting mainly of bible passages on the subject of the OP. How ever long, context is not only given in the passage of Acts 15, but is also confirmed in several other books and chapter...if read...

I'm sure that even those who don't agree...can agree that scripture interprets scripture.
 
K

Karraster

Guest
#16
There were rumors that Paul was teaching against the "law of Moses" in his day. He proved he was not by his Nazarite vow. Was Paul a hypocrite, or is he misunderstood? I think those who say He taught contrary to Moses and Jesus, have misunderstood him, and gladly so, for they cling to their strongholds and false theology rather than see. For there are numerous scripture that confirm God doesn't lower His standards to rebels, nor did Messiah rebel against Father.

Remember what happens to those who does not love truth?

2Thessalonians2
[SUP]9 [/SUP]The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, [SUP]10 [/SUP]and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, [SUP]12 [/SUP]that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Even so, come Lord Jesus. It is a wicked world indeed, when professing Christians say there is no law.
 
Mar 23, 2014
435
1
0
#17
.Any time there is a discussion of law, the book of Galatians is quoted as proof against law.

“For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God."
"Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?"
"It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery."
18 "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law."

Yet, scripture gives verse after verse upholding law.
Romans 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

John 14:21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”

Galatians 3:21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.

I found a study that explains Galatians through a thorough study of all scripture that applies, and a study of the times surrounding the letter that is almost like going back into the life of the Galatians. It isn’t an easy study, it is an outline that can take weeks to do. It isn’t for the casual Christian. It would be hard to skim it, but even that would be helpful. It is 126 pages long, packed with scriptures to look up. It is a study that could not be done before the last years archeological finds. A study that bridges the time between the people God used to explain and us.

It is written by Richard Spurlock who is a Torah observant believer in Christ. If you are anti-Semitic or deeply into opposition to anything you could label Judaism, you probably would use the study only to reinforce your beliefs, but I promise you it would be an interesting study that you would benefit from, either as for law or against it.

http://www.bereansonline.org/studies/Galatians.pdf
What about acts 15:10; Hebrews 8:13;romans 7:6....etc.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,780
2,940
113
#18
Angela, do you realize that you post to scold me for suggesting an in depth study of Galatians by quoting a few verses of that book. No history. No background scripture. No study. Not even the entire book. Just your usual judging. The same theme. No one should dare go into the OT for learning. It is Judaism, a teeerrrrible thing, Paul was against all of it. I should think that as a biblical scholar as you say you are, you would be for other people making an in depth study of a book of scripture instead of going on and on about how awful that would be.
I just read over Galatians the last two days as part of my devotions. I also re-read the history, the background -for instance, it was likely written before Acts 15 and the Jerusalem Council, because that important Council is not mentioned in the book, and it would have been had it been finished. It was written to address the problem of Judiazers. Like the same problem we have here. There were also some elements of Gnosticism addressed to a lesser degree. It was thought it was addressed to Galatians living I the Roman province of Galatia, because those were the cities Paul visited on 2 of his missionary journeys in the south of Asia Minor.

So that is what I remember off the top of my head from Seminary and the intro to Galatians in my ESV study Bible.

But this discussion is not really in about my knowledge, but a deep theological divide between those who would make us law keepers, instead of Christ followers. It is also about eisegesis, which is the bad hermeneutics of having a theory, and then going through the Bible to find verses in isolation which support your viewpoint, instead of exegesis, which means you use context to pull out of the Bible what God is saying.

"Eis" means into or in in Greek
"Ex" means out of in Greek.

Therefore, are you reading INTO the Bible to support your theories and opinions, or take OUT of the Bible what God says?

Cherry picking a verse here and there is a sure sign that you are reading into the Bible. And there really is no rebuttal for what I posted earlier. In context, the book of Galatians is about a disappointed and angry Paul chastising a congregation he planted, for so quickly deserting the true gospel, for the lie that they needed the Mosaic Law to be saved. Luke points this same thing in Acts 15, the chapter in which the Jerusalem Council was convened.

Why was the Jerusalem Council convened?

"But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses.” Acts 15:5

So we see this same heresy repeated over and over at CC. We are saved by grace through faith, NOT by obeying the law!
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,704
3,649
113
#19
Paul did not teach against the law of Moses. He did teach it was not obligatory for justification nor a means of sanctification.
 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
2,295
167
63
#20
Isn't it strange that you can read scripture, and I can, too, and you have a God that seems very strange to me, saying strange things to you.
Based on the things you post here, thank you for the compliment :).

This study makes a case for what Paul meant by "law of Moses" for instance and you can not even hear what he found from studying writings of the time.
Bull Pucky. The Laws given to Israel at Sinai are commonly known as the 'Law of Moses'. This can be determined by reading Scripture; no outside source necessary.


Often, I see people using their opinions of a verse without checking how it fits with other verses.
Really. I have yet to see you post contextual Scripture.

As for me, anyone can go to my recent posts to see my use of the Scriptures. I'm content to let God and the reader judge between us.


I made a list of some of your opinions for my bible study group to go over, it is the Nazarine Church (Wow, bet I hear how they are ALL wrong) and we find your conclusions just don't fit scripture. And you find the same about mine. I wonder what the Lord thinks about it all! One of us is wrong. Perhaps the Lord only sees if we do what the Lord's prayer outlines for us and allows us to see darkly.
I'm content to let God and the reader judge between us.


If I see a scripture that doesn't agree with every other scripture, I dig and dig until I find out what God truly says about it. I think that is my biggest problem with the God you have. One of your scriptures says to listen to the law and obey, another says to only listen to the Holy Spirit the written law is a burden.
Tell us, RedTent, where is your ark? God commanded that it be built, yes?

Killed any Philistines lately? God commanded that they be slain, yes?

Stoned any Sabbath breakers, ever? God commanded that they should be stoned, yes?

If you're not doing any of those things, why not? They are clear commands of God.


You decide to listen to the scripture that says to only listen to the Holy Spirit, that lets you live as you like.
Madam, you do not know me. You do not know whether or not I live 'as I like' or if I live a godly life. Such are the limitations of internet interaction.

For you to insinuate licentiousness is bearing false witness and an unwarranted attack on my character.


My God never disagrees with Himself. I find my God in the word, in the bible, and you look there and find a God who seems strange to me.
Again, based on the things you post here, thank you for the compliment :).

I have no idea what your post about "they" who has contradictory theologies is all about. Frankly, I don't go by any "they". Calvin, Luther, Wesley, or any other "they". I go by scripture. The study I suggest isn't a "they", it talks about scripture, not one but many. I followed the study, and I couldn't find an agenda or a "they", it only talked about scripture and history.
RedTent: 'They' are the folks who wrote the 126 page PDF that you posted the link to.

'They' ascribe to everything from Chassidic Judaism, to Calvinism, to mysticism, to 'christianity', to Orthodox Judaism, to Zionism . . .

The PDF you posted was endorsed by 'them'; 'they' who hold to conflicting belief systems. You're trusting the teaching endorsed by people who believe a little bit of everything and in so doing, they believe in nothing that matters.

-JGIG