Election of God

[Spokenpassage]

I am open minded on this subject. I believed in conditional election, then I believed in unconditional election because of many scriptures, then I looked at scriptures for conditional and they both make sense...

I know both systems fail at perfectly understanding God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. But I am very very interested in believing what the bible teaches, and this concerns me (shouldn't it all?).

Can someone from both sides provide scripture with believed correct exegesis to support one or the other?

Looking for a good debate, not a malicious argument.

1# state your position

2# explain

 

[crossnote]

To me it is whose choice reigns supreme?

Did we choose Him because He first chose us

Or

Did He choose us because we chose Him?

As far as 'unconditional' goes, what condition could there be in us for Him to chose us? If there is, then one has room to boast.
If there is a condition it is hidden in Him not yet revealed.

I won't debate this topic as it goes beyond our full human comprehension and the discussion is endless.

 

[Spokenpassage]

I guess I am looking for the most biblical view.

 

[crossnote]

I guess I am looking for the most biblical view.

You'd find that in Scripture...not from us.

 

[Spokenpassage]

You'd find that in Scripture...not from us.

Yes of course. But others are convincing me through scripture otherwise from what I see in scripture. This is why I want to get others views through this.

I do stand on unconditional (my first position), but I am willing to see any scripture and explanation otherwise.

 

[crossnote]

I mean you are going to have great arguments from Scripture from both sides of the aisle. Ultimately it is up to you and Scripture not our opinion.
Sorry, I didn't meet your expectations.

 

[JesusLives]

These are just my thoughts. Jesus chose us and acted on that choice by dying on the cross so that every human could be saved. We humans have to make a choice to either accept or reject that free gift of salvation. Some will say that we are predestined, but are we really? Or is it just that God knows the beginning from the end and He knows what choice we will each make?

Sorry it's a little too late for my mind to think clearly and go hunt bible verse at this moment, the above again just some of my thoughts. But again with Jesus sacrifice the way was made for everyone to say yes and be saved, we just don't all do that.

 

[konroh]

Here's the Bible verse that proves the balance

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia,Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen [SUP]2 [/SUP]according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, [SUP][a][/SUP]to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace [SUP][b][/SUP]be yours in the fullest measure.

So God's choice is not completely unconditional, it is in accordance with His foreknowledge. Some lean too far and say God's choosing is independent of foreknowledge (Calvinists). Some say that His choosing is based on His foreknowledge (Arminian). The true Biblical balance is God's choosing is in accordance with His foreknowledge. They are twin parallel truths. God's choice is not arbitrary, but neither is it conditioned.

 

[psalm6819]

God is operating outside of time. He knew we'd fail. (the Lamb slain before the foundation of the earth) He offered up Jesus for everyone (He so loved the world, whosoever..) He already knew the choice (election is choice) that each one of us would make. He draws all (the goodness of God draws us to repentence) some reject Jesus. God is not willing that any should perish but He will not trample on our right to choose.


-

 

[And]

So you are taking a poll on a mistranslation of the king James by a committee of King James who held the doctrine of predestination?

Why dont you look it up and see what it means?

it actually means chosen to be in company with

so the people CHOSE to be in company with God

much different thatn the king james hack job definition.

 

[Nancyer]

To me it is whose choice reigns supreme?

Did we choose Him because He first chose us

Or

Did He choose us because we chose Him?

As far as 'unconditional' goes, what condition could there be in us for Him to chose us? If there is, then one has room to boast.
If there is a condition it is hidden in Him not yet revealed.

I won't debate this topic as it goes beyond our full human comprehension and the discussion is endless.

I don't believe discussions are ever pointless, unless they get into meanness and name calling, etc. Everyone has a point of view that is valid enough to be considered. Perhaps briefly but considered out of respect.

 

[Grandpa]

1 John 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Who loved who first? God loved us first.

We responded to His Love.

God chose us first. We responded to His Choice.

John 15:16 [SUP] [/SUP]Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

I agree with crossnote. It is beyond our human comprehension.

 

[guestno2]

And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence.
1 Cor 1:28

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love
Ep 1:4

But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth..
2 Thes 2:13

Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
James 2,5

But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty
1 Cor 1:27

 

[guestno2]

Also, following verses from Eph 1

...Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Eph 1;5-14

In Slovakia we use to wave mostly with this part above from Ephesians and also from 2 Thes. 3, 2 but in EN you have different translation, so.. in Sk it sounds like this:
… because the faith is not (was not) given to all of ye …

So as you can imagine, pretty heavy weapon for Calvinist .. (although, that part of script is little bit out of contexts)in your KJV it is .... for all men have not faith ...

 

[konroh]

Does God have the faith that saves us? No, we have the faith.

Not all have faith. A no-nonsense statement if I ever heard one.

 

[guestno2]

Does God have the faith that saves us? No, we have the faith.

konroh, but you know, that whole "faith thing" is based on different assumptions then what you presented
And that different assumption is, that faith is gift from God and it is grace, if He giveth to you … so no something what you can produce on your own..

Its based on what I already mentioned, that:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God (Eph 2:8)

and as also Peter said, we received this gift of faith together with Lord grace

Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ (2 Peter 1:1)

..also Jude
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints (Jude 1:3)

So, whole idea is basically that we are who we are just because of God grace and we are going to be, what we are going to be to such an extent as He gives…
…according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith… (Rom. 12,3) ..
so no less no more, and …
…therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace.. (Rom4, 16)

Also, because faith is gift from God (2 Cor. 12) we are not surprised by fact, that disciples requested from Jesus greater extent of faith …
.. apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith … (Luke) ..
because everything good is coming from God. And therefore we are
…Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12)

So, basically same, as saying, that it is completely on Him who will be saved…

I am not saying that it is my opinion, I mentioned it just as a curiosity regarding to different (incorrect) translation in 2Thes. 3, 2 which in SK sounds like this:… because the faith is not (was not) given to all of ye …and subsequent interpretation and view.
This kind of mistakes sometimes happens because of imperfections in translation from origin languages …

But nevertheless, that I know, that it is kind of abnormality in interpretation of Bible, or basic beliefs, yet it is not necessary that incoherent with whole Calvinist predestination theory, so…

Again, I posted it just as supplement for option no1, and I am fully aware, that we can find lot and lot and lot of arguments for option no. 2 or no. 4
And if nobody will presented those, maybe I will post also verses proving reliability of opposite beliefs...
I didn't vote, I just provided the verses from Bible, that's all (and my intention was not to provoke anybody, but just for better understatement for bystanders ..)
as always, sorry for EN and be blessed