Are you responsible for Christ's murder?

[phil112]

Noticed someone here (don't remember now, who) say something to the same effect as a friend I have been talking to today, in reference to the crucifixion of Jesus:

"Our hands drove those nails.Thank you God for your forgiveness Amen."

That is simply incorrect. To think that you, we, or anyone besides the jews of that day, had anything to do with Christ's death is wrong. It is morally, legally, and biblically wrong. No one today had anything to do with the events surrounding the death of Christ.
From a biblical viewpoint, Stephen, in Acts 7:52, said this: "Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers". He laid the blame squarely on the shoulders of those in front of him. He pointedly called them murderers of Christ.
From a quasi-bible/legal viewpoint, to be held responsible, in part or wholly, for His death, would mean being charged as accessories by the deed (Adam's sin) of our father. Neither the law, nor God holds us responsible for such an event. Ezekiel 18:2,3,20, and Jeremiah 31:29,30, clearly tells us that each person is responsible for his own sin and we are not charged with our father's transgressions.
From a moral viewpoint, if I step in front of a robbers bullet to save my child, does that saving act make my child an accomplice in my murder? It would be insane to think so, now wouldn't it?

The act of Christ dying to save us does not impute His murderers sin to us. That is what His love and grace is all about. He volunteered to put Himself in harms way for us. That doesn't meant that we are complicit in His murder.
I too often see the bible being overlooked for someone's personal opinion. Folks, it's all in the bible. God didn't leave anything out. If you can't find it, it's because you don't want to accept what God said about it.

 

[phil112]

Think about it. The most heinous act in the history of the world, the murder of God's own Son by the men He came to save, is something that someone wants to claim their participation in. How absurd, and how dangerous.
We have talked about what the unforgiveable sin, blasphemy of the Holy Ghost, is, and this act epitomizes it. Can there possibly be any more glaring example of blaspheming the Spirit other than killing Christ? Christ, who was brought to earth to save our souls, by the holy Spirit? I think not.
If ever, in the history of mankind, anyone is going to hell on judgement day, it would be those murderers that killed Christ and blasphemed the Holy Ghost at the same time.
I am going to distance myself from that action and those people as much as is humanly possible.

 

[Karraster]

About all I can say is get behind me Satan, who do not savor the things of God.. and yes, Messiah died for my sins.

.. New Testament ..
[SUP]Matt 16:21 [/SUP]From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

 

[posthuman]

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous,
that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit
(1 Peter 3:18)

for all have sinned
(Romans 3:23)

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
(1 John 1:8)

Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood,
and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
(Hebrews 9:22)

i would like to think that if i were in Jerusalem 2000 years ago i would not have cried "Barabbas!'
but the reality is that every day, i have reason to rely on Christ's sacrifice. only if i could make myself pure could i ever say i am in no way responsible for His suffering, only if i could ever say "i have no need of mercy" -- & i cannot say that if the truth is in me.

 

[posthuman]

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;
who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame,
and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
(Hebrews 12:2)

do not think that it was against His will that he took up the cross, that he was 'overpowered' by wicked hands!

 

[phil112]

....................... only if i could make myself pure could i ever say i am in no way responsible for His suffering, only if i could ever say "i have no need of mercy" -- & i cannot say that if the truth is in me.

Tell me where I was wrong, since you don't agree. What part of what I said is in error?

 

[crossnote]

phil, How else could your sin be atoned for but by His death?
Can you really say your sin had nothing to do with His death?

 

[Karraster]

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous,
that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit
(1 Peter 3:18)

for all have sinned
(Romans 3:23)

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
(1 John 1:8)

Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood,
and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
(Hebrews 9:22)

i would like to think that if i were in Jerusalem 2000 years ago i would not have cried "Barabbas!'
but the reality is that every day, i have reason to rely on Christ's sacrifice. only if i could make myself pure could i ever say i am in no way responsible for His suffering, only if i could ever say "i have no need of mercy" -- & i cannot say that if the truth is in me.

Well said.

If I believe Christ died for me, how can I not say, "He died because of me"?

 

[posthuman]

Tell me where I was wrong, since you don't agree. What part of what I said is in error?

For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.
(James 2:10)

i didn't drive the nails into His hands, but i am just as much the reason that He hung on the cross as Caiaphas was. i feel that every time i ever fall short of the glory of God, i am complicit in His death. He died to save sinners - He died as my ransom, and yours. don't we need ransoming?
i didn't pull the trigger, but i am accessory to His 'murder' -- though i wouldn't call it murder, but self-sacrifice. Christ jumped on the grenade for me!

 

[posthuman]

i know it's because of your love for Him that you are outraged at the thought you could be called responsible.

but like Peter, who that night he declared his faithfulness, denied Him three times, the things we would do, we don't, and the things we wouldn't do, we do. it's not that your love and your rebuking even the thought of it is wrong, but it's the reality that we do need a Saviour. praise God, we have one, whose mercy and love is beyond comprehension!

 

[notuptome]

It is taking great liberty and looking at Christ's death on the cross from a figurative perspective. I think it is true that Christ would have died on that cross even if I were the only sinner on the earth. I believe Jesus loved me that much. Scripture says that herein is love not that we love Him but that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. 1 John 4:10. Romans 5:8

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[ThomistColin]

In my church on Good Friday the people interact through a type of call and response. We are to say "Crucify Him," and "We have no king but Caesar." We do this to acknowledge that it was for us that He died. And that every time we sin, that is exactly what we are doing.

 

[posthuman]

In my church on Good Friday the people interact through a type of call and response. We are to say "Crucify Him," and "We have no king but Caesar." We do this to acknowledge that it was for us that He died. And that every time we sin, that is exactly what we are doing.

that sounds uncomfortable!

 

[ThomistColin]

that sounds uncomfortable!

It is, but I love it. To in some way feel the Passion and place myself in the crowd, opens up my mind to the realization of what Christ did for me.

 

[phil112]

i didn't drive the nails into His hands, but i am just as much the reason that He hung on the cross as Caiaphas was. i feel that every time i ever fall short of the glory of God, i am complicit in His death. .............

True, we are the reason for His sacrifice, but that doesn't make us accessories. You feeling complicity doesn't make it a fact. The analogy I gave of a man taking a bullet for his child is a very good one for what Christ did for us. Certainly we not only should feel indebted, we are indeed indebted for that act. But it still doesn't mean we are guilty of His death.
We have to seperate our feelings from biblical truth, and the truth is, we are not, nor ever were, partially or wholly responsible for His death.

 

[phil112]

phil, How else could your sin be atoned for but by His death?
Can you really say your sin had nothing to do with His death?

Again, the sin He died for was the one that Adam brought into the world. By Adam's sin, all mankind was born into sin. Being a beneficiary of His death does not automatically incur guilt.
If my child hadn't been where the gunman could have shot it, I wouldn't have died by having to step in front of the bullet. That still does not transfer guilt to my child for my death, does it?

 

[crossnote]

Again, the sin He died for was the one that Adam brought into the world. By Adam's sin, all mankind was born into sin. Being a beneficiary of His death does not automatically incur guilt.
If my child hadn't been where the gunman could have shot it, I wouldn't have died by having to step in front of the bullet. That still does not transfer guilt to my child for my death, does it?

Were we not in Adam? Would we have not done the same as Adam? Or is Adam blameless as well?

 

[Nick01]

Again, the sin He died for was the one that Adam brought into the world. By Adam's sin, all mankind was born into sin. Being a beneficiary of His death does not automatically incur guilt.
If my child hadn't been where the gunman could have shot it, I wouldn't have died by having to step in front of the bullet. That still does not transfer guilt to my child for my death, does it?

There is a flaw in the analogy, though - not only are we the targets of the bullet, but we are also the ones who fired it - or if that's too much, we certainly supplied the ammunition!

If you want to take a strict legal perspective, no, we are not accessories, strictly speaking. But the reality is that if we did not sin, Christ would not have to die. If we did not sin, Christ would not have had to bear the wrath of God. It is not simply Adam's sin for which he died - we carry within us the 'infection', if you like, of Adam, but at every point we are responsible for our own sinful actions. Otherwise Adam is the only one who need fear judgement, because he's the only one guilty of sin requiring judgement.

 

[phil112]

There is a flaw in the analogy, though - not only are we the targets of the bullet, but we are also the ones who fired it - or if that's too much, we certainly supplied the ammunition!

.....................................

Show me scripture to support that statement. I showed you scripture where God said He would not hold us responsible for our father's sins.

 

[ThomistColin]

Show me scripture to support that statement. I showed you scripture where God said He would not hold us responsible for our father's sins.

Have you ever sinned? Then you are responsible for Christ's death. It was for you that He did it. Do you still sin? Realize that when you do, you are saying, "Not right now Lord. I see You on the Cross, but this thing, I really wanna do." You didn't drive the nails into His hands or feet, or whip Him, but you are the reason why, and therefore bear responsibility to Him. Therefore, accept His forgiveness, and recognize that it came for a price.

Also, Christ wasn't murdered, He gave up His life. Remember, Jesus said that no man can take His life.