Biblical Logical Fallacies?

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Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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#41
If 'heart purity' is the only obtainable salvation, then why did Christ die? If man had a way to save himself already, then why did Christ say that He is the Way?

This whole thing boils down to humanism, where man is in control of his own destiny,
vs
what the Bible says, where God alone has control.
Exactly.

Either we save our ownselves by working really hard to be sinless.

Or we need a Saviour who actually does the work of saving us.

The bible tells us it is the latter and refutes the former.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#42
If 'heart purity' is the only obtainable salvation, then why did Christ die? If man had a way to save himself already, then why did Christ say that He is the Way?

This whole thing boils down to humanism, where man is in control of his own destiny,
vs
what the Bible says, where God alone has control.
I never said man could save himself apart from Jesus Christ.

This is commonly what those of your position do. You throw out false assertions or fall back onto one lined responses which totally disregard what I have already clearly stated.

Why did Christ die? The Bible tells us...

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Jesus Christ was a propitiatory (sin expiating) offering via which sinners could approach God for the remission of sin. The righteousness of Christ has been declared to all demonstrating that while we were yet sinners (context of those who were sinners at the time of His death) He died for us.

Furthermore the Bible states...

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Jesus gave Himself for us that we might be redeemed (set free from bondage) from all iniquity and made pure and zealous of doing the right thing. This occurs when we approach God with a true heart, in repentance and faith, seeking a cleansing of our sin...

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
...
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

It is through this means that our consciences are washed clean whereby we can present ourselves to God confidently knowing that the shed blood of Christ effects a remission of our sin.

False teachers like Augustine present this view of God as totally sovereign over everything within the context that free will does not really exist. Thus God does all the work apart from any choices that men make. This philosophy serves to coddle people in their rebellion as they are taught to simply wait on God to effect change in them and trust in the future solution in the meantime. The truth is that God requires us to yield to His lead and through this cooperative approach His work can be done through us for we are not longer in rebellion to it taking place.

God does not subvert the human will. God offered Cain a choice.

Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
 
L

LT

Guest
#43
i can understand Dispensational "Seminal/Natural Headship" theory, and I accept it as a valid view of Scripture, and I will not debate against those who hold it.
However, I am willing to help explain the Word to those who have rejected the results of Adam's sin over the whole human race, which is thoroughly expressed in Scripture.
 
L

LT

Guest
#44
If you are basing your theology on 'free-will', you are basing it on a philosophy that is not expressed in Scripture. You are reading things into the Word.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#45
Exactly.

Either we save our ownselves by working really hard to be sinless.

Or we need a Saviour who actually does the work of saving us.

The bible tells us it is the latter and refutes the former.
Or alternatively both those assertions are in error whereby it would be an elaborate scheme of dialectic manipulation (controlling both sides of a paradigm to limit thought).

The truth is that we are saved by cooperating with the grace of God via faith resulting in a good work being done in us by the power of God.

This is why people like James would state...

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

James understood that one cannot receive the implanted word within whilst still in a rebellious state for "rebellion = rejection" and "receiving = yielding." Hence one must lay aside all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness in order for one to receive with meekness the Word within. It is in the reception of the Word within the transformation of the heart takes place.

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

We purify our souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto a true love of the brethren. We are thus born again by the implanted Word which lives and abides forever.

This is why Paul connects being "made righteous in Him" with "working together with God" lest grace is received to no working effect.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

We don't "work hard to be sinless." We simply abide in the light and walk according to the Spirit. In doing this we are set free from the law of sin and death and the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us. This is why the sons of God are manifest to the world by their righteous conduct, they abide in the Spirit of Christ and hence serve God in spirit and in truth.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#46
i can understand Dispensational "Seminal/Natural Headship" theory, and I accept it as a valid view of Scripture, and I will not debate against those who hold it.
However, I am willing to help explain the Word to those who have rejected the results of Adam's sin over the whole human race, which is thoroughly expressed in Scripture.
Again you use rhetoric to assert what you think as true without presenting evidence from Scripture. If you were to present evidence it would simply be selected proof texts which you would present out of context. Due to this you it would be very easy to refute by cross referencing what the authors in question assert elsewhere as well as what is stated in the surrounding context.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#47
If you are basing your theology on 'free-will', you are basing it on a philosophy that is not expressed in Scripture. You are reading things into the Word.
By denying free-will you are upholding the notion that sin is not a choice and therefore dispensing yourself of being personally responsible for your sin. You are in effect blaming God for making you a sin robot.

Human Beings are not robots. Human Beings are sentient beings with the capacity to choose vice or virtue. Without choice vice and virtue cannot exist, only fatalistic predetermined outcomes.

The early church prior to Augustine upheld the notion of the free and independent will of human beings. Fatalism did not really creep into church orthodoxy until Augustine wrote his treatises on predestination.

The Augustinian view teaches the "wait on God approach to salvation" because you cannot actually do anything. The opposite view of that is one of being able to voluntarily cooperate with the working of God in order to achieve a desirable outcome.

Noah cooperated with God in building the Ark. Abraham cooperated with God in stepping out into the unknown. We cooperate with God by abiding in His known will from the heart.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#48
I hate seeing people fighting over the headship of Adam.
Legal/Federal Headship
Natural/Seminal Headship
It's not either/or
it's both.

Jesus was born of a virgin for what reason?
To not be born with the guilt of Adam's sin.

Christ was the 2nd Adam, the only other man born without guilt.
Heb 2:17 "Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people".

If Christ's brethren had Adam's sin, so did Christ.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#49
It was my understanding that when Adam and Eve decided to have knowledge of sin by eating the apple, this knowledge became who they were, and what all their children inherit.
There is no sin gene or dna that is passed from person to person.

A drunk drive crosses the center line and crashed head on into another car killing its occupant. That occupant died as a consequence of the drunk driver's sin not because he inherited his sin.
 
L

LT

Guest
#50
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, andso death spread to all men[e] because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

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1 Corinthians 15:45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”;[a] the last Adam became alife-giving spirit. 46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall[b] also bear the image of the man of heaven.

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  • Psalm 51:5 - Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.
  • Genesis 8:21 - the Lord said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man’s heart is evil from his youth."
  • Psalm 58:3 - The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies.
  • John 3:6 - "That which is born of the flesh is flesh"
  • Ephesians 2:3 - among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
  • Isaiah 64:6 - We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment.
  • Hebrews 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please [God]
  • Romans 8:7-8 - Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
  • Romans 9:16 - So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
  • Philippians 2:13 - for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
  • John 3:6, 6:63 - "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all."
 
Oct 31, 2011
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#51
The truth is very simple and precise. All these theories are fun to think about, but we are not to get caught up in them so we lose sight of basic truth. The road is actually very narrow and very straight. It is simply that we are created by God who loves us and wants us to live in shalom here, and with Him forever and shows us in scripture how to do that, with the Holy Spirit helping us understand. That is it. God sent Christ, through Him we have forgiveness when we repent, after that is done we use scripture guidelines for our walk with the Lord. Everything else must fit within these basic truths with everything in the right order. Christ must come first, then our walk.
 
L

LT

Guest
#52
By denying free-will you are upholding the notion that sin is not a choice and therefore dispensing yourself of being personally responsible for your sin. You are in effect blaming God for making you a sin robot.
no, you are not adhering to the Word, which shows our God as 100% sovereign, yet man 100% responsible.
If you have issues with God's sovereignty, know that we all do without the Spirit: it is in our prideful flesh that we try to take control away from God and/or make Him responsible for evil.
 
Oct 31, 2011
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#53
There is no sin gene or dna that is passed from person to person.

A drunk drive crosses the center line and crashed head on into another car killing its occupant. That occupant died as a consequence of the drunk driver's sin not because he inherited his sin.
If it is all about drunk drivers illustration and nothing that Adam and Eve did affecting us, then why does scripture talk about such a change in the world after the knowledge of sin came into the world?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#54
no, you are not adhering to the Word, which shows our God as 100% sovereign, yet man 100% responsible.
If you have issues with God's sovereignty, know that we all do without the Spirit: it is in our prideful flesh that we try to take control away from God and/or make Him responsible for evil.

I can't believe he is actually still here. He has been shown this stuff over and over, for ike it seems years

He does not realise. God took care of the sin issue on the cross. The issue is, are you "in adam" or "in Christ"
 
L

LT

Guest
#55
Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[b] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patiencevessels of wrath prepared for destruction


verse 20 has the answer to those who claim God is responsible for evil or sin.
 

SolidGround

Senior Member
Jan 15, 2014
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#56
Heb 2:17 "Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people".

If Christ's brethren had Adam's sin, so did Christ.
You'll need to build upon this much more before you complete your thought.

It's a perversion, btw, what you are trying to say.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,188
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#57
Or alternatively both those assertions are in error whereby it would be an elaborate scheme of dialectic manipulation (controlling both sides of a paradigm to limit thought)..
You don't think the Lord Jesus Saves us and it is by His work we are saved and not our own?

The truth is that we are saved by cooperating with the grace of God via faith resulting in a good work being done in us by the power of God.
Co-operating? How does a person "co-operate" with a gift? Shouldn't we just recieve the gift? And by the recieving of this gift we are changed...
This is why people like James would state...

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

James understood that one cannot receive the implanted word within whilst still in a rebellious state for "rebellion = rejection" and "receiving = yielding." Hence one must lay aside all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness in order for one to receive with meekness the Word within. It is in the reception of the Word within the transformation of the heart takes place.
That all sounds great but where is the Power of the Lord Jesus Christ? If all we had to do is stop sinning and start reading the bible then we didn't even need a NT. We could have just stopped sinning and "yielded".

This is a better picture of being saved.

Ephesians 2:4-7
[SUP]4 [/SUP]But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.


1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

We purify our souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto a true love of the brethren. We are thus born again by the implanted Word which lives and abides forever.
We purify our souls... I just don't like that wording. The Lord Jesus has purified our souls by our faith and trust in Him.

John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.



We don't "work hard to be sinless." We simply abide in the light and walk according to the Spirit. In doing this we are set free from the law of sin and death and the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us. This is why the sons of God are manifest to the world by their righteous conduct, they abide in the Spirit of Christ and hence serve God in spirit and in truth.
Well I agree with your conclusion.

I just disagree with all your steps that you think you have taken to get there. The weird thing is that I agree that the steps are necessary, just that the work is done by the Lord Jesus Christ. He leads and we follow.

It wasn't our obedience that caused Him to give us His Gift.

He gave us His Gift and that caused our obedience. Or caused our desire to be obedient maybe is a better way to put it.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#58
If it is all about drunk drivers illustration and nothing that Adam and Eve did affecting us, then why does scripture talk about such a change in the world after the knowledge of sin came into the world?
I did not say "nothing that Adam and Eve did affecting us". Their sinning did affect us, we die as a consequence of their sinning. When God made Eden for them, it was perfect, they had a tree of life and could have lived forever. They were told if they ate of a certain tree they would surely die. When they did eat of that physical death became a surety, not just for them but for all of us as a consequence of their sin.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#59
You'll need to build upon this much more before you complete your thought.

It's a perversion, btw, what you are trying to say.
Hebrew writer says Jesus took on the nature of man.

Rom 1:3 "Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;"

What was David's seed after the flesh like?

Heb 2:14 "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same;"

So Jesus would have been born a sinner with a depraved nature.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#60
Rom 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

1) v19 is an if-then type statement. If the first part of the verse is true, then the second part is just as true

2) "many" refer to the same people both times. So "IF" it is true many were made sinners UNCONDITIONALLY by inheriting Adam's sin, "THEN" it is also true that same many will be made righteous UNCONDTIOANLLY and you have Universalism. Paul did not say many were UNCONDITONALLY made sinners or many were UNCONDITIONALLY made righteous.

3) the point being made by Paul is many that have been affected by sin since sin entered the world through Adam, Christ has brought about a cure for that sin by His obedience in dying on the cross. So Christ did not die for just some mythical Calvinistic elect, but died for as many affected by sin. So Rom 5:19 refutes both original sin and Calvinistic limited atonement.

4) no one is a sinner until they sin as no one is righteous until they do righteousness