The golden calf...Shavuot/Pentecost

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Mar 4, 2013
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#1
It is common knowledge that Israel built a golden calf while Moses was on the mount receiving the stone tablets. Why did they make a golden calf? Did they do that because they were frightened at the lightnings and thunders? Did they actually start constructing the golden calf because they were scared of God? The Ten Commandments in Exodus 20:2-17 were given on stone tablets, according to our doctrine, and during that time, the golden calf was made. Then....................starting with the next scripture........

Exodus 20:18-23
18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed , and stood afar off.
19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear : but let not God speak with us, lest we die .
20 And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.
21 And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.
22 And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.
23 Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold.

Should **Exodus 32:5-6 and 19 be here?

Exodus 24:3
3 And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said , All the words which the LORD hath said will we do .

**Exodus 32:5-6
5 And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation , and said , To morrow is a feast to the LORD.
6 And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink , and rose up to play .

It seems strange to me that they were playing at the same time they were frightened because of what they saw and heard from the mountain. How do we reconcile this?

**Exodus 32:19
19 And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses' anger waxed hot , and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount.
 
Sep 14, 2013
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#2
Other mythologies suggest that because we were leaving the age of Taurus and entering Piscies, the bull represents Taurus.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
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#3
It must have been a custom that they picked up in Egypt. The hebrews under Moses were constantly wanting to revert back to their egyptian ways.

That's all I've got... I always thought it was really weird after all the hebrews had seen of God and His Power and Provision that they would do that. The parting of the sea, manna, the birds, water from the rock, the pillar of fire and the cloud... They murmured and complained about their new way of life constantly. Continually seeing their discontent and wishing they were back in Egypt.
 

skipp

Senior Member
Mar 6, 2014
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#4
They were a whiny bunch weren't they. Actually they were a lot like us. Humans haven't changed much.
 
Mar 4, 2013
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#5
עֲשֶׂרֶת הַדְּבָרִים = *“Top ten things” are in the three following verses. Notice that the original Hebrew in these next three verses are totally different in Exodus 24:12

Exodus 34:28
And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the *ten commandments.

Deuteronomy 4:13
And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform , even *ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Deuteronomy 10:4
And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the *ten commandments, which the LORD spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me.

תּוֹרָה וְהַמִּצְוָה = “Torah and mitzvah” **law and commandments” meaning instructions, and actions.
לְהוֹרֹת = ***teach when, pointing toward teaching when there is an occurrence warranting action, and judgment.

Exodus 24:12
And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a **law, and commandments which I have written ; ***that thou mayest teach them.

How do we reconcile this seeming contradiction?

עֲשֶׂרֶת הַדְּבָרִים = *“Top ten things” Somebody that knows the Hebrew alphabet and the meanings of each letter can clarify this maybe. There are ten letters in this phrase. The first one represents "love," and an eye to watch.
 
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L

Least

Guest
#6
It is common knowledge that Israel built a golden calf while Moses was on the mount receiving the stone tablets. Why did they make a golden calf? Did they do that because they were frightened at the lightnings and thunders? Did they actually start constructing the golden calf because they were scared of God? The Ten Commandments in Exodus 20:2-17 were given on stone tablets, according to our doctrine, and during that time, the golden calf was made. Then....................starting with the next scripture........

Exodus 20:18-23
18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed , and stood afar off.
19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear : but let not God speak with us, lest we die .
20 And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.
21 And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.
22 And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.
23 Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold.

Should **Exodus 32:5-6 and 19 be here?

Exodus 24:3
3 And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said , All the words which the LORD hath said will we do .

**Exodus 32:5-6
5 And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation , and said , To morrow is a feast to the LORD.
6 And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink , and rose up to play .

It seems strange to me that they were playing at the same time they were frightened because of what they saw and heard from the mountain. How do we reconcile this?

**Exodus 32:19
19 And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses' anger waxed hot , and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount.
This is a common theme in the scriptures from the very beginning, Adam and Eve didn’t take responsibility for eating of the forbidden fruit, Adam blamed, Eve and Eve blamed the snake, even though the scriptures say they were commanded not to eat of it and on the day that they did eat of it, they would die. The desires of their own hearts are what caused them to disobey God.

They each had a choice, even in temptation.
Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Likewise, Cain didn’t take responsibility for slaying Abel, because his heart was resentful that Abel’s offering had been acceptable to God, and his was not.

In each example, God beforehand had told them what not to do, and warned them of the consequences. In each case the desire of their own heart outweighed the instruction that God had given them,

With Adam and Even, after they had eaten of the fruit, they saw that they were naked and then they (in shame) hid themselves.

Exodus 32:25 And when Moses saw that the people were naked; (for Aaron had made them naked unto their shame among their enemies:

“Nakedness is a symbol of shame, disobedience to God brought shame, it exposed their hearts and their desires, and left them “uncovered.”

Still, in the case of Adam and Eve, God made them clothing to cover their shame.

There are other examples of how disobedience brings shame:

The book of Revelation even shows that some do not know the shame of their own nakedness. It seems that the Hebrew people in the wilderness also didn't know the shame of their own nakedness, because it resulted in the destruction of many.

Revelation 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
Revelation 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

All the way into the book of Revelation, we see the same type of example. I believe this is very important lesson. The fear of the Lord in Exodus, as Moses said was with them so that they would sin not. It seems that the fear was removed to see if they would indeed be obedient from their own hearts. And a few were! Caleb and Joshua remained faithful and were the only two to enter into the promised land.


Deuteronomy 8:2 And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.
 
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Mar 4, 2013
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#7
I guess my question in the OP should have been ............

Did Israel build the golden calf when Moses was on the mountain the first time in Exodus 19:20,
or the second time in Exodus 24:18?
Or could it have been between those 2 times in Exodus 24:9-10, or after the second time in Exodus 24:18?
 
Oct 31, 2011
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#8
The reason they built the golden calves was that they wanted to be able to look at a God, not just know God was there working for them. The true God was called the invisible God, they were taunted about it. The people used the golden calves to help them with their worship of God, the calves represented God. When kings of Judah cleared the land of temples to idols, the little family shrines with the golden calves were left because they weren't considered idols, but places to worship God. The golden calves represented God to them.

We sometimes do the same thing today. God is a God of spirit and truth, we can't Christianize anything to represent God.
 
Mar 4, 2013
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#9
The reason they built the golden calves was that they wanted to be able to look at a God, not just know God was there working for them. The true God was called the invisible God, they were taunted about it. The people used the golden calves to help them with their worship of God, the calves represented God. When kings of Judah cleared the land of temples to idols, the little family shrines with the golden calves were left because they weren't considered idols, but places to worship God. The golden calves represented God to them.

We sometimes do the same thing today. God is a God of spirit and truth, we can't Christianize anything to represent God.
Was then the motivation that Moses was on the mount too long in their opinion? I still haven't received any answers to post #7. Does anybody have any ideas?
 
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Oct 31, 2011
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#10
Was then the motivation that Moses was on the mount too long in their opinion? I still haven't received any answers to post #7. Does anybody have any ideas?
I haven't considered timing of the first calves, as I try to grasp the spiritual importance God wants me to know from this. Do you think the timing of the first ones made has great significance? I have never seen that as the important thing to learn, they were made for 100's of years.

Scripture mentions that they felt Moses was gone a long time. Certainly, they were completely dependent on Moses for leadership. Remember when Moses' father-in-law Jethro visited and taught Moses to delegate responsibilities. Moses was worn out trying to take care of every little one of their disputes, Jethro had him appoint others to take care of the small ones. They felt dependent on Moses to lead them in worship of God, too. When they decided on the golden calves to help them, it was using their own fleshly way to worship.

This was only the first golden calf. For hundreds of years there were golden calves made, and for most of that time people would be outraged if you told them God said it was wrong. They felt they were worshipping the true God. There is a possibility that it compares to Christians being told that man made props to help with their worship today are not right, for God is only of spirit and truth.
 
L

Least

Guest
#11
I guess my question in the OP should have been ............

Did Israel build the golden calf when Moses was on the mountain the first time in Exodus 19:20,
or the second time in Exodus 24:18?
Or could it have been between those 2 times in Exodus 24:9-10, or after the second time in Exodus 24:18?
The account of the golden calf is in Exodus 32. If it's in chronological order, it would have been after both other times...going to have to examine the commands given to see what commandments or statutes were given each time....

Still hoping that someone will answer who knows the Hebrew alphabet.

עֲשֶׂרֶת הַדְּבָרִים= *“Top ten things” Somebody that knows the Hebrew alphabet and the meanings of each letter can clarify this maybe. There are ten letters in this phrase. The first one represents "love," and an eye to watch.
I tried to do a google search on the Hebrew alphabet, but I'm finding several differences in the alphabet itself...

Funny enough, I used the letters that you posted, (copied and pasted them) and even in the search engine, they go from right to left. I had to go to the front of the letters and hit "backspace," to do different searches...

Reading through the three chapters to see what the differences are, or if they run together.
 
Mar 4, 2013
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#12
The account of the golden calf is in Exodus 32. If it's in chronological order, it would have been after both other times...going to have to examine the commands given to see what commandments or statutes were given each time....

Still hoping that someone will answer who knows the Hebrew alphabet.

I tried to do a google search on the Hebrew alphabet, but I'm finding several differences in the alphabet itself...

Funny enough, I used the letters that you posted, (copied and pasted them) and even in the search engine, they go from right to left. I had to go to the front of the letters and hit "backspace," to do different searches...

Reading through the three chapters to see what the differences are, or if they run together.
Hebrew reads from right to left. in order to get the meaning of any given word, one must start at the right and add each following letter on the left adding to the description that is to the right of each added letter. I'm working on it. Concerning the "Ten Commandments" "Ten" has 3 letters, and "commandments" also have 3 letters, as reading them individually, in the Hebrew. There are 4 Hebrew letters missing in the Greek Septuagint concerning this common phrase (Ten Commandments) as I found out about an hour ago. This is becoming very interesting.!!!!!!

עֲשֶׂרֶת הַדְּבָרִיםTop ten things
I'm searching. I'll post more when I find out.

16ע = (Ayin/Ghah-Eye) watch, know, shade, love
21שֶׂ =(Shin/Sin-Two front teeth) sharp, press, and eat, exceeding sinfulness of sin
20רֶ = (Resh-Head of man) the beginning of enlightenment to mankind, redemption.
עֲשֶׂרֶ6235,6237,6238=ten or tenth accumulation

4דְּ = (Dalet/Dal-Door) entrance, creation, the world, creative works
2 בָ = (Beyt/Bet-Tent floor plan) household, family, union, division, and witnessing
20רֶ = (Resh-Head of man) the beginning of enlightenment to mankind, redemption.
1687,1696,1697, 1698,1699דְּבָרִ commandments



 
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Mar 4, 2013
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#13
I haven't considered timing of the first calves, as I try to grasp the spiritual importance God wants me to know from this. Do you think the timing of the first ones made has great significance? I have never seen that as the important thing to learn, they were made for 100's of years.

Scripture mentions that they felt Moses was gone a long time. Certainly, they were completely dependent on Moses for leadership. Remember when Moses' father-in-law Jethro visited and taught Moses to delegate responsibilities. Moses was worn out trying to take care of every little one of their disputes, Jethro had him appoint others to take care of the small ones. They felt dependent on Moses to lead them in worship of God, too. When they decided on the golden calves to help them, it was using their own fleshly way to worship.

This was only the first golden calf. For hundreds of years there were golden calves made, and for most of that time people would be outraged if you told them God said it was wrong. They felt they were worshipping the true God. There is a possibility that it compares to Christians being told that man made props to help with their worship today are not right, for God is only of spirit and truth.
I am referring only to the 1 golden calf made at mount Sinai. I am asking what people thought, as to when it was made. If it was made during the time that God gave the "Ten Commandments" in Exodus chapter 20, as we know them, then the chronology of scripture is not correct. Or is the chronology of scripture right, and the calf was made at another time when they were there at the mount? Then one has to consider what was actually written on stone if the chronology is right. See my conundrum?
 

KohenMatt

Senior Member
Jun 28, 2013
4,011
212
63
#14
It must have been a custom that they picked up in Egypt. The hebrews under Moses were constantly wanting to revert back to their egyptian ways.

That's all I've got... I always thought it was really weird after all the hebrews had seen of God and His Power and Provision that they would do that. The parting of the sea, manna, the birds, water from the rock, the pillar of fire and the cloud... They murmured and complained about their new way of life constantly. Continually seeing their discontent and wishing they were back in Egypt.
I agree. But then I ask myself, how many times have I done the same thing?

Very humbling.
 
L

Least

Guest
#15
Exodus 19 is the third month after they came out of Egypt. Moses went up into the Mount, (1'st account.) And God instructs him to speak with the people about all that they had witness in coming out of Egypt and to make a covenant with HIM that they will obedient to Him.
The people all agreed, so Moses goes back up into the mount to "return the words of the people to God."

So God tells Moses to sanctify the people and wash their cloths, that he will come down in a "thick cloud" so that the people will hear when God speaks to Moses and believe him (Moses) forever. He also tells Moses to set bounds around the mount so the people will not bread through or even touch the boarder of the mount.

Exodus 19:17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount.
Exodus 19:18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.
Exodus 19:19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.

At that point, Moses goes back up the mount, so the people saw the power of God, and were told not to go up or even touch the mountain. When Moses goes back up, God speaks the ten commandments to him. (chapter 20).

Exodus 20:18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.
Exodus 20:19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.
Exodus 20:20 And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.

So the golden calf wasn't made at or before Exodus 19. There were no commandments written on stone at this point. Moses simply spoke what God told him to speak, so by the time the calf was made, they had already agreed not to make any images or worship any other gods.

In Chapter 20, Moses did recite the ten commandments to the people, and they agreed, and because of the fear that came when God showed them that He spoke with Moses, with the smoke, and trumpets and thunderings, and the mountain shaking, the people were afraid and asked Moses to speak for them. That was went Moses explained the fear of the Lord to them. (So that they sin not.)

It looks as though the second time Moses went up the mount that God had given him all the words contained in the next chapters, to the end of Chapter 23.

The beginning of Chapter 24, God tells Moses to come up on the mountain.

Exodus 24:1 And he said unto Moses, Come up unto the LORD, thou, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel; and worship ye afar off.
Exodus 24:2 And Moses alone shall come near the LORD: but they shall not come nigh; neither shall the people go up with him.

It looks like all those listed in Exodus 24 went up with Moses but they were to worship afar off...only Moses could draw near to the Lord. So If Aaron was on the mount at that time, he couldn't have made the golden calf.

Exodus 24:9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:

Exodus 24:10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

Exodus 24:18 And Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and gat him up into the mount: and Moses was in the mount forty days and forty nights.

The last verse shows that Moses was up in the mount..forty days and forty nights alone.

Then God gives him the instruction for the making the tabernacle, the alter, the Arc of the covenant, all of the furniture and tools for the temple. The sacrifices and offerings, the holy garments, the oil, all of these things..

So it was during that time, after the ten commandments were given, at the end of chapter 24....while Moses was on the mountain for 40 days and 40 nights, that the people wanted to golden calf...and Aaron did what they requested.
 
L

Least

Guest
#16
I wonder, if the people hadn't agreed in Chapter 19, to the covenant to obey all that God tells them, the commandments, statutes, etc..that it would have continued into all of the instruction and ordinances given in the next several chapters.

They had agreed to be obedient to all that God instructs them in Chapter 19...The ten commandments were recited by Moses in Ch. 20, and again the people agreed. So then the next several chapters give specific details and even with the Tabernacle, God told Moses to be sure that it was made according to all of the instructions...
Exodus 25:40 And look that thou make them after their pattern, which was showed thee in the mount. Everything had specific instructions. This carries on to Chapter 32.

I can see why Moses was on the mountain for so long! Having these things written would have been important. That's a lot of information to contain just by memory.
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#17
Thought I would paste this here from another thread

Amos 5

20 Shall not the day of the Lord be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?
21I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies.
22 Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept them: neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts.

Reckon why?
 
Mar 4, 2013
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#18
Least Thanks. Good stuff, but I am still a little hesitant, for Moses went down to the people in 19:25 just before the 1st verse in Exodus 20, but he didn't have the tables of stone at that point. As we know the very next chapter is what we know as the "Ten Commandments." Everything else you said, I agree with. You did however miss verse 12 in Exodus chapter 24, and I do agree that this is the time that the golden calf was made in the 40 days Moses was gone. Nevertheless, our normal doctrine is that the golden calf was made when God gave the commandments in chapter 20, but this seems to be at least 2 days before the tables of stone were promised in Exodus 24:12.
12 And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written ; that thou mayest teach them.

It appears that Moses finally began the climb to the top close to the top of Mount Sinai on the 6th day of the 3rd month finally made it to the top to get the tables of stone on the 12th day in Exodus 24:15-18
 
L

Least

Guest
#19
Thought I would paste this here from another thread

Amos 5

20 Shall not the day of the Lord be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?
21I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies.
22 Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept them: neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts.

Reckon why?
Here's why,

Amos 5:1 Hear ye this word which I take up against you, even a lamentation, O house of Israel.
Amos 5:2 The virgin of Israel is fallen; she shall no more rise: she is forsaken upon her land; there is none to raise her up.

Read the chapter before as well. Seems to me that at that time, the people were doing exactly as they had at other times. No real obedience, yet trying to Honor God...kind of like honoring Him with their mouths but their hearts were far from HIM.

How could any of their feasts be acceptable to God when they were living in complete sin?

He was speaking against them...Not against His feasts.
 
Mar 4, 2013
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#20
Thought I would paste this here from another thread

Amos 5

20 Shall not the day of the Lord be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?
21I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies.
22 Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept them: neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts.

Reckon why?
No heart, no sincerity, just ritual. Obedience is better than sacrifice.
1 Samuel 15:22
22 And Samuel said , Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.