Apparent Contradiction in 1 John:

[danschance]

We all accept 1John 1:8:

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1John1:8-9

Yes, many of us completely agree that we are sinful. We all do in fact sin or we are liars according to scripture. Yet in the same book by the same author in 1John3:9 it states:

No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 1John 3:9

So how can we sin and yet not sin? According to Matt Slick an apologist, this is not a contradiction at all. It is an issue with Greek tenses.

"Present tense: "The verb tense where the writer portrays an action in process or a state of being with no assessment of the action’s completion."4Finally, in 1 John 3:9 we see an infinitive form of a verb. The infinitive is "to go," "to see," "to eat," etc. This is important.
"And he cannot sin (και οὐ δυναται ἁμαρτανειν [kai ou dunatai hamartanein]). This is a wrong translation, for this English naturally means “and he cannot commit sin” as if it were και οὐ δυναται ἁμαρτειν [kai ou dunatai hamartein] or ἁμαρτησαι [hamartēsai] (second aorist or first aorist active infinitive). The present active infinitive ἁμαρτανειν [hamartanein] can only mean “and he cannot go on sinning,” as is true of ἁμαρτανει [hamartanei] in verse 8 and ἁμαρτανων [hamartanōn] in verse 6.5
[h=2]Conclusion[/h]There is no contradiction. What is happening is that John is saying that the one who is born again does not habitually abide in sin. He may fall into it, but he does not practice it as a lifestyle. The nuances of the Greek language are not carried over to the English, but when we understand what is happening we then see there is no problem.
Finally, any Christian who would say that he does not sin anymore fails to agree with 1 John 1:8 which says, "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us." He would then be self-decieved. " Matt Slick
See this article for more information: Can a true Christian sin or not? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
[FONT=Helvetica, Verdana, Arial, Bitstream Vera Sans, sans-serif]If we look at another verse from 1John5:18 we see another passage that states:

[/FONT]We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him. 1John 5:18 [FONT=Helvetica, Verdana, Arial, Bitstream Vera Sans, sans-serif]

[/FONT]

[FONT=Helvetica, Verdana, Arial, Bitstream Vera Sans, sans-serif]Notice the phrase "keep on sinning". So 1John 3:9 is not actually saying we can not sin, but we do not keep on sinning is a better way to more accurately understand this passage. This is due to idiosyncrasies with Greek tenses. The bible does harmonize and there is not a contradiction here.[/FONT]

 

[danschance]

Regarding the poll, the first question should more accuratly state "We can not keep on living in a sinful life style, but we can still sin.

 

[1still_waters]

I wonder if John Wesley and those who came after him studied the Greek? it could have saved from a whole strain of "Christian perfection" teaching.

 

[1still_waters]

I've also wondered if the "sinning" referred to in those verses had a more narrow scope. Meaning the sin of not trusting in Jesus as savior. There is a greater context to those verses.

1 John 3
23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. 24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God,[d] and God[e] in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.

So maybe it's not necessarily to be read through the lens of "Christian sinless perfection", but rather through the lens of, who does and doesn't trust in Jesus as savior and who does and doesn't love one another.

I'm just speculating here.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

When we are born of God, we partake of the divine nature via the new birth [2 Peter 1:4]- the spirit which dwells within us is incorruptible - sin does not touch that new creation; that spirit within us which is God's 'seed'. We do however sin in the flesh, and when we walk in the flesh, or by that 'old man nature'; we break that fellowship with the Father and the Son [1 John 1:3], although our standing as sons and daughters remain [for his (God's) seed remaineth in him 1 John 3:9). We have to ask forgiveness in order to restore that fellowship. [1 John 1:9] We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself and that wicked one toucheth him not. [1 John 5:18] (all verses from KJV)

 

[Sirk]

There is no contradiction here. A person saved by Christ who is putting in the mind of Christ has made a practice of rooting out the sin in their lives. We are BEING MADE new and the treasure of BEING new awaits us in heaven.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I've also wondered if the "sinning" referred to in those verses had a more narrow scope. Meaning the sin of not trusting in Jesus as savior. There is a greater context to those verses.

1 John 3
23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God,[d] and God[e] in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.

So maybe it's not necessarily to be read through the lens of "Christian sinless perfection", but rather through the lens of, who does and doesn't trust in Jesus as savior and who does and doesn't love one another.

I'm just speculating here.

There is so much in chapter 3. Alot to swallow

 

[Hizikyah]

Very interesting question.

I think this verse would have to be taken into consideration when trying to understand Yahchanan's (John's) meaning -

1 Yahchanan (John) 2:6, " He who says he abides in Him, is himself also obligated to walk exactly as He walked."

Since we know none are going to be 100% like Messiah I would still think a total change and thought and action and noting less than VIRTUALLY not sinning. What I mean is not just, "I dont live a life of sin" but sin is actually there, but walking a very righteous walk, one that is truly the will of Yahweh and the narrow path that Yahshua spoke of. Now everyone's "bar" is going to be at a different "level" IN THEIR MIND, I dont not speak of this, but rather I speak of the standard of Loving Yahweh and loving our fellow human in relation to the standard Yahweh sets forth, and not out view.

 

[Elizabeth619]

long time ago someone explained to me that when a Christian commits a sin they have guilt, and try to refrain from it. They will ask for forgiveness. When a non Christian sins they have no guilt. The feel no need for forgiveness.

 

[Hizikyah]

long time ago someone explained to me that when a Christian commits a sin they have guilt, and try to refrain from it. They will ask for forgiveness. When a non Christian sins they have no guilt. The feel no need for forgiveness.

I have been told to "have no guilt" you are already forgiven. Yahweh willing the day I have no guilt is the day I sin no longer. If ones heart is truly mimiking that of Yahshua's then one would have feeling of guilt anytime wrong doing was committed. I believe this "no guilt" is the "conscience seared with a hot iron" Shaul (Paul) talked about, are hearts are not changed to be sociopaths but rather to follow the will of Yahweh. There is a man named Joseph Prince that teaches not to ask forgiveness because you have already been forgiven....a terrible doctrine that take the abundant mercy givein in the blood of Yahshua and tramples all over it.

Yahdah (Jude) 1:4, "For there are certain men who have secretly crept in, who were before of old ordained for this condemnation, unholy men, who turn the undeserved pardon of our One Supreme Savior Yahweh into licentiousness, and deny Yahshua our Messiah."

Hebrews 10:26-31, "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Those who rejected the Law given through Mosheh died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished, who has trampled the Son of Yahweh underfoot, and has counted the blood of the covenant (with which He was sanctified) an unholy thing, and who has insulted the Spirit of mercy? For we know Him Who has said: Vengeance is Mine; I will repay, says Yahweh. And again: Yahweh will judge His people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living Father."

and concerning the OP I think in modern times this or similar false doctrines cause one to think they are in the "Spirit" or not living a sin life/sinning, when in reality sin is going unchecked.

 

[danschance]

long time ago someone explained to me that when a Christian commits a sin they have guilt, and try to refrain from it. They will ask for forgiveness. When a non Christian sins they have no guilt. The feel no need for forgiveness.

Christians do sin but we do not sin as we did when we were not saved. Or in other words, Christians avoid the sin that the wourld engages in as if it is normal.

 

[Jda016]

I always have seen it this way:

Jesus destroyed "SIN," which is our sin nature or the root that was in our hearts that kept us from God. In this sense, no one goes on sinning anymore because our spirit is clean.

However, the flesh still lives and within it lies a multitude of "sins" (I'm making a distinction between upper case and lower). This is why we are told to crucify the flesh and that it is to die because it is the ground where sin flourishes.

So we continue to sin, but that is why we are commanded to overcome and fight the good fight against it.

Jesus did that which we could not do by getting rid of "SIN." We are then commanded to remove sins from our lives which we do by choice with the help of the Holy Spirit, for "if you love Me, you will obey my commandments" (John 14:15).

 

[Atwood]

The word "continue" is not in 1 John. The best explanation I know of for 1 John is that he speaks of the New Nature, which cannot sin. As Roman 7 says, "16 But if what I would not, that I do, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 So now it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwelleth in me."
I am convinced that the pressing of the present tense in 1 John to mean continuous or habitual is wrong. As a matter of fact, Christians do sin habitually. In many ways we all stumble (according to James). If you press the present tense then you would come up with In many ways we all continually or habitually stumble.

1 John says "9 Whosoever is begotten of God does no sin, because his seed abides in him: and he cannot sin, because he is begotten of God."

To try to defend the text vs being nonsense, some have taken refuge in the continual or habitual present tense. But to say that the present tense must indicate continual is wrong. I think this has been put forth by persons who don't know Greek well. So, try my interp on for size. See if it makes sense to you and fits the context. The Christian has an old nature and a new nature. The Old man waxes corrupt. But not the new man.

 

[Atwood]

long time ago someone explained to me that when a Christian commits a sin they have guilt, and try to refrain from it. They will ask for forgiveness. When a non Christian sins they have no guilt. The feel no need for forgiveness.

But godly sorrow works repentance. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. There is a household forgiveness, though when a man trusts Christ as Savior all sins are forgiven as paid for by Christ.

 

[haz]

Hi danschance,

I agree that the physical is not perfect.
But 1John 3:9 is not referring to the physical when it says Christians "cannot sin".
Instead, 1John 3:9 refers to our position in Christ.
Our life is hid with Christ in God, Col 3:3. Remember that we're a new creation, in Christ. I no longer live but Christ lives in me, Gal 2:20
And in Christ there is no sin, 1John 3:5

Regarding the physical part of Christians, it's already dead (by faith, crucified with Christ, Rom 6:6) because of sin, Rom 8:10. That imperfect physical part is guilty of all the law (James 2:10) as it cannot keep the law perfectly.

Note 1Cor 6:18
Flee sexual immorality (with Hagar, symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24) . Every sin that a man does is outside the body (of Christ that we abide in), but he who commits sexual immorality (with Hagar, which is unbelief) sins against his own body.

Remember that a Christian's life is hid with Christ in God. In believing on Jesus our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5. And as long as we believe on Jesus then that means that our old imperfect man (with it's sin) remains crucified/dead on the cross, because of sin, Rom 8:10. Christians are thus in the body of Christ, being one Spirit with him, 1Cor 6:17.
Being in Christ we are thus covered by his righteousness, holiness, perfection.

But if we say that Christians (the new creation, who is one Spirit with Christ) still sin, then is that not like saying there is sin in Christ? Remember 1John 3:5, in Christ there is no sin.

Consider also the scriptures below that support the claim in 1John 3:9 that Christians "cannot sin"

1Pet 4:1
Therefore, since Christ suffered (crucified) for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind (our old man crucified with him, Rom 6:6), for he who has suffered in the flesh (Rom 6:6) has ceased from sin

Gal 2:15
We who are Jews by nature (having circumcision of the heart, Rom 2:29), and not sinners of the Gentiles

1Pet 4:18
And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Here it describes 2 different groups of people. The wheat and the tares, if you will.
Group 1: Righteous/Saved
Group 2: Sinner/Ungodly/Unsaved.

It does not describe here a righteous/saved, sinner.

I suggest it would have been better to offer a 4th option on the poll describing our position in Christ, being covered by his righteousness, holiness, perfection, sinlessness. Remember that is who Christians are now, one spirit with him.

As for that flawed physical part of us, it's already dead (by faith, Rom 6:6) because of sin, Rom 8:10. Hence we shouldn't be interpreting scriptures with our focus upon that old man. Instead we should discern scripture based on who we are in Christ. Hence why 1John 3:9 says we "cannot sin".
And remember that in Christ there is no sin.1John 3:5

 

[Atwood]

Greetings Haz.

You say, "As for that flawed physical part of us, it's already dead (by faith, Rom 6:6)"

Is there any chance at all that I could convince you that Romans 6 does not mean the physical when it says," knowing this, that our Old Man was crucified with him, that the body of Sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin;"

Having done a lot of research on this, I am well-convinced that the physical body is not the residence of sin, but the temple of the Holy Spirit for the Christian -- how could it be both?

But before I spill a lot of cyber-ink on this, I would like to know if you are open at all to a different understanding of Old Man, flesh, members, and "Body of Sin."

Take a look at Galatians 5, the works of the flesh -- are they all physical issues? As Peter says, there is stuff in Paul hard to understand. I hold that the sarx, the "flesh" as prophet Paul teaches it, refers to the Adamic human nature, as the NIV recognizes (not that the NIV is the best translation).

 

[Atwood]

Haz, you say: "Every sin that a man does is outside the body (of Christ that we abide in), but he who commits sexual immorality (with Hagar, which is unbelief) sins against his own body."

Are you really sure that body means something different in the two parts of this verse? Isn't physical sin implied, fornication? Are you really sure that you should insert the parenthesis there, and make this the Church, the Body of Christ? Note that the context speaks of "your bodies," plural, which cannot mean "Bodies of Christ"; there is only one Church.
I am truly at a loss as to how you could read Hagar into this verse. Here is the context:

"15 Know ye not that your bodies are members of Christ? shall I then take away the members of Christ, and make them members of a harlot? God forbid. 16 Or know ye not that he that is joined to a harlot is one body? for, The twain, saith he, shall become one flesh. 17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. 18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. 19 Or know ye not that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have from God? and ye are not your own; 20 for ye were bought with a price: glorify God therefore in your body."

 

[Atwood]

Greetings. I know that what you give is a common explanation of the passage. But I find compelling reasons against it.

"John is saying that the one who is born again does not habitually abide in sin. He may fall into it, but he does not practice it as a lifestyle."

It makes more sense to me to take this as speaking of the new nature, consistent with Romans 7, no longer I who do it, but sin dwelling in me. The New I (New Man) does not sin.

This interpretation seems to be in error as to the Greek grammar (I having an master's degree in Greek). The present tense does not always mean continual or habitual. You can find present tenses on the negative side also. Actually it is probably that most Christians sin every day -- in many ways we all stumble. It is possible to be in a carnal state, sold under sin (Romans 7). Some Christians, IMHO, may stop going to church for years -- as an example, contrary to Hebrews. The fornicator in 1 Corinthians seems to have spent a prolonged period at it before he repented.

2 πολλὰ γὰρ πταίομεν ἅπαντες. (James). Note the present tense -- does it mean continually sin? If present tense has to mean continual, then there you have it for sinning.

Rom 7: " ἐγὼ δὲ σάρκινός εἰμι πεπραμένος ὑπὸ τὴν ἁμαρτίαν."

Here we have another present tense: "I am continually without let up carnal"?

I think the motive for the continual interpretation is to let us off the hook for an absurd statement or sinless perfectionism, which we know is wrong. But I think it is the wrong escape hatch interpretation. Try the New Nature interp on for size.

 

[Atwood]

Re: Apparent Contradiction in 1 John: The Poll

Unfortunately you did not include the New Nature interpretation, which is what I hold.

 

[Kerry]

The point that Paul was getting at in Romans 7 and in Galatians and in Corinthians. Is that we must focus our faith on the work of the cross and if we put our faith in anything else mainly works, the sin nature revives in us. The only way we have victory over the nature of son that is in our flesh is through the means of the cross. I was alive once with out the law, but when the law came I died. What i will to do that I do not, what I will not do, that I do. Who shall deliver me from this. The cross.

An apostle of God could not live up to standard of God with out the help of the Holy Spirit and realized through revelation that the Holy Spirit only works within the parameters of the cross, outside of that He will not help you.

It is not by might nor by power but by My Spirit saith the Lord. Not of our own doing we can only do as our faith is in the cross and yield to the leading of the Holy Spirit.