Gnostic Hope or Chrsitian Hope, which do you look for?
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Butch I believe the Bible.... And my hope is in 1 John 3.... And this is what happens to people cleansed to the state of Godly cleansing....
Gnostics say to ascend into heaven and be removed from the flesh... Ok let us see what gave them that idea....
God says this in Ezek 36:26 and 27... A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Where is my spirit and my heart when God puts this NEW HEART and NEW SPIRIT in me? Where am I when God's Spirit FILLS me?
Jesus said.... John 17... I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Joh 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
You asked some deep stuff so I hope this answers your question as to what I believe and hope for... I say it is a GODLY TAKE OVER... when God gives a man BORN OF GOD... For in Christ is a NEW CREATION, the old is GONE and BEHOLD EVERYTHING IS MADE NEW... 2 cor 5:17. Is the flesh also made new, to be as hly as Jesus? Where is the OLD? (God says he will CAUSE us to walk in his will) Sounds like a take-over for me... If God CAUSE us to walk as He wants... And I LOVE IT!
So if Jesus in his fulness is the NEW CREATION in me, where is the OLD COBUS? Eph 4 says Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Here is the OLD COBUS..... For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. (The old Cobus is where Chrsit is) HID IN GOD!
So that is what I beieve! And this is my hope and what I am busy with right now.... 1 John 3...And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
May the lord bless all of you with a new heart and a new spirit... AMEN!
Gnostics say to ascend into heaven and be removed from the flesh... Ok let us see what gave them that idea....
God says this in Ezek 36:26 and 27... A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Where is my spirit and my heart when God puts this NEW HEART and NEW SPIRIT in me? Where am I when God's Spirit FILLS me?
Jesus said.... John 17... I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Joh 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
You asked some deep stuff so I hope this answers your question as to what I believe and hope for... I say it is a GODLY TAKE OVER... when God gives a man BORN OF GOD... For in Christ is a NEW CREATION, the old is GONE and BEHOLD EVERYTHING IS MADE NEW... 2 cor 5:17. Is the flesh also made new, to be as hly as Jesus? Where is the OLD? (God says he will CAUSE us to walk in his will) Sounds like a take-over for me... If God CAUSE us to walk as He wants... And I LOVE IT!
So if Jesus in his fulness is the NEW CREATION in me, where is the OLD COBUS? Eph 4 says Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Here is the OLD COBUS..... For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. (The old Cobus is where Chrsit is) HID IN GOD!
So that is what I beieve! And this is my hope and what I am busy with right now.... 1 John 3...And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
May the lord bless all of you with a new heart and a new spirit... AMEN!
Our blessed hope is to behold the Savior and be raptured. Does that mean to never die and never be resurrected? I think it reasonable to suppose that at the Rapture a Christian might die and be immediately raised without falling to the ground.
Yes, the New Earth appears to be the eternal place of blessing for the Christian, though since our citizenship is in Heaven, we might have "dual citizenship" at that time and also have access to Heaven. At any rate, I see our destiny is to be with the Lord Jesus wherever He may be.
As to the Greek and Gnostic dualism whereby the body is bad and the soul is good, that is unbiblical. Man's normal and blessed state is to have a body and spirit united. And the body is the Christian's temple of the Holy Spirit.
Let me expand on this a bit:
Having studied this subject over many years, I came to conclude the following:
"Flesh" and "body of sin" in Romans is not the physical body. Sin resides in the "flesh," the Old Man, which provides a "body" for Sin, but is not our physical body. The works of the flesh are not primarily physical in Gal 5. The "flesh" is a figure of speech for the Adamic human nature. The NIV sometimes translated ethical "flesh" as human nature, probably too interpretive a translation, if correct -- and the NIV probably goes overboard on this translation.
Likewise, "members" in Paul's writings is not "physical members," "members of the body" see Colossians where the expression members is similar to flesh.
Likewise, in 1 Cor 15 one should not interpret "spiritual body" as a body made our of spirit; "spiritual body" is contrasted with "soulish body," mistranslated as "natural body."
Yes, the New Earth appears to be the eternal place of blessing for the Christian, though since our citizenship is in Heaven, we might have "dual citizenship" at that time and also have access to Heaven. At any rate, I see our destiny is to be with the Lord Jesus wherever He may be.
As to the Greek and Gnostic dualism whereby the body is bad and the soul is good, that is unbiblical. Man's normal and blessed state is to have a body and spirit united. And the body is the Christian's temple of the Holy Spirit.
Let me expand on this a bit:
Having studied this subject over many years, I came to conclude the following:
"Flesh" and "body of sin" in Romans is not the physical body. Sin resides in the "flesh," the Old Man, which provides a "body" for Sin, but is not our physical body. The works of the flesh are not primarily physical in Gal 5. The "flesh" is a figure of speech for the Adamic human nature. The NIV sometimes translated ethical "flesh" as human nature, probably too interpretive a translation, if correct -- and the NIV probably goes overboard on this translation.
Likewise, "members" in Paul's writings is not "physical members," "members of the body" see Colossians where the expression members is similar to flesh.
Likewise, in 1 Cor 15 one should not interpret "spiritual body" as a body made our of spirit; "spiritual body" is contrasted with "soulish body," mistranslated as "natural body."
C
Where do you get this definition from?
Why not calling it a new earth? Doesn't the bible say the first earth would pass away? Every time this topic is discussed I get very excited because I believe technology is from God and I can't even imagine what it's like in the new earth..........oh and animals too... guess we could finally hug teddy bears and lions.
Why not calling it a new earth? Doesn't the bible say the first earth would pass away? Every time this topic is discussed I get very excited because I believe technology is from God and I can't even imagine what it's like in the new earth..........oh and animals too... guess we could finally hug teddy bears and lions.
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Butch, you hit the nail on the head!
"Hi Cobus,
"I'm not sure how the addresses the question. I agree the believer will be with Christ, the question is, where?"
That where I am, there you may be also. John 14.
Where is not nearly so important as with Whom. The Lord Jesus is our destiny.
I believe the apostles would have understood the passage in John 14 as the temple. They had seen Him chase out the money changers and He said not to make His Father's house a house of merchandise. They also would have been familiar with the many rooms in the temple that Jesus speaks of.
Hi chubbena,
It's just a brief summary. The Gnostics actually had many different beliefs. It was kind of like denominations. The basic premise was that the flesh body was inherently corrupt and that salvation was to escape the body. They saw the body as a prison of the spirit. This is why some mocked when Paul was preaching on Mars Hill. Paul was preaching the resurrection of Jesus in a physical body and to the Greek mind being in a body again was not salvation but to be imprisoned a second time. The Gnostics mixed some of the Greek Philosophy with some Christian teaching. their goal was not to be resurrected but rather for the spirit to be freed from the body and to ascend into the heavens.
The English use passed away but it doesn't mean that there will be a new planet. Scripture says that the earth, literally land is the inheritance of Christ. God also promised that He would give the land to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and their Seed, how Paul said is Christ as an everlasting possession. Since this earth (land) is their inheritance it's not likely that God is going to destroy it. He created it and put it under the dominion of man but man messed up. However, that is still God's plan that man will rule over the creation, that's one reason that the Word became flesh. however, Scripture tells us that things will be restored, here are few passages.
19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
[SUP]20[/SUP] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
[SUP]21[/SUP] Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
The word creature should be creation.
[SUP]22[/SUP] For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. {the...: or, every creature} (Rom 8:19-22 KJV)
[SUP]
[SUP]21[/SUP] Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.(Acts 3:21)
[/SUP][SUP]
[/SUP]5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
(Rev 21:5 KJV)
I make all things new, not I make all new things.
It's just a brief summary. The Gnostics actually had many different beliefs. It was kind of like denominations. The basic premise was that the flesh body was inherently corrupt and that salvation was to escape the body. They saw the body as a prison of the spirit. This is why some mocked when Paul was preaching on Mars Hill. Paul was preaching the resurrection of Jesus in a physical body and to the Greek mind being in a body again was not salvation but to be imprisoned a second time. The Gnostics mixed some of the Greek Philosophy with some Christian teaching. their goal was not to be resurrected but rather for the spirit to be freed from the body and to ascend into the heavens.
The English use passed away but it doesn't mean that there will be a new planet. Scripture says that the earth, literally land is the inheritance of Christ. God also promised that He would give the land to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and their Seed, how Paul said is Christ as an everlasting possession. Since this earth (land) is their inheritance it's not likely that God is going to destroy it. He created it and put it under the dominion of man but man messed up. However, that is still God's plan that man will rule over the creation, that's one reason that the Word became flesh. however, Scripture tells us that things will be restored, here are few passages.
19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
[SUP]20[/SUP] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
[SUP]21[/SUP] Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
The word creature should be creation.
[SUP]22[/SUP] For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. {the...: or, every creature} (Rom 8:19-22 KJV)
[SUP]
[SUP]21[/SUP] Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.(Acts 3:21)
[/SUP][SUP]
[/SUP]5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
(Rev 21:5 KJV)
I make all things new, not I make all new things.
C
Sorry I was referring to
I don't think this misunderstanding is exclusive to or originated from Gnostics and thus my question...
I guess my question is if there's any significance using the word "renewed" rather than "new" as in "a New Heaven and a new earth" - and - what does "The earth and the heavens fled from his presence" mean?
I don't think this misunderstanding is exclusive to or originated from Gnostics and thus my question...
I guess my question is if there's any significance using the word "renewed" rather than "new" as in "a New Heaven and a new earth" - and - what does "The earth and the heavens fled from his presence" mean?
You're correct it didn't originate with the Gnositcs, that how it entered the church. The Gnostics got the idea from Greek Philosophy. Plato was a big expounder of the "Heavenly Spheres."
I think "renewed" is a better way to saying it because when we thing of something new we think a different one. If was say we're getting a new car we mean a different one, not that we're renewing the one we have.
What passage is that.
I think "renewed" is a better way to saying it because when we thing of something new we think a different one. If was say we're getting a new car we mean a different one, not that we're renewing the one we have.
What passage is that.
Oh it has to be here on earth. There are a few verses in the Bible that show us what a Godly man is made into. I mean John said.... herein is out love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: becasue as he is, so are we in this world....
How is God and how are we AS HE IS IN THIS WORLD... Got to be here where the believer is in Chrsit and Chrsit in the believer... If not then the Bible is wrong, and we know the Bible is NOT wrong.
How is God and how are we AS HE IS IN THIS WORLD... Got to be here where the believer is in Chrsit and Chrsit in the believer... If not then the Bible is wrong, and we know the Bible is NOT wrong.