THESE SIGNS

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Mar 12, 2014
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#21
The word ,"Them" in v 20 is italicised in the KJV, and that means it wasn't in the original Greek
So it reads like this.
"The Lord working with, and confirming the word with signs following".

God works with and confirms His word with signs following, No matter who is preaching it.

V17 says. Them that believe,
THEM means them that believe

I believe and God confirms His word that I preach, with signs following.
And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

"they" refers to the apostles, even though "them" was added by translators to make the verse read smoother, it is understood the apostles are the 'they' and 'them' of this verse, the ones Jesus was addressing in this context.
 
Jan 6, 2012
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#22
The promise of those signs was made to the apostles, Paul later being made an apostles was also give these signs.
2 Cor 12:12, Paul refers to them as "signs of an apostle".
Acts 18:8 an apostle could lay hands upon another person and pass that person an apostolic sign, but that person could not pass that apostolic sign to anyone else.

Mk 16:11,13,14 - it was the apostles in this context that did not believe, so much so Jesus upbraided them for their unbelief. So these signs shall follow them (apostles) that believe. The interpretation some put upon Mk 16:17 requires ALL who believes would have these signs following, but even in the first century when they had signs, all that believed did NOT have signs, 1 Cor 12:29,30
Correct. Jesus was speaking to the apostles (and about apostles) in that particular instance. The qualifying words there, regarding this, are "follow" and "believe": "These signs will follow" or, as you said in another way concerning Paul's 'signs of an apostle', "these signs will RATIFY the ministry of [genuine apostles]". While any Christian can do miracles according to their gifting, faith, or the Holy Spirit moving on them, miracles and signs don't 'follow' them as they don't have the ministry that it ratifies. To "believe" in that verse doesn't mean to just have faith or believe as defined today but, as 'believe' means in much of the NT (most popularly Jn. 3:16), 'to follow'. Jesus was sent from God; as He followed God, God ratified that HE, and no one else, had sent Jesus as His personal Ambassador. Paul said, "Follow me as I follow Christ", because all apostles are sent by Jesus, not by anyone else, as personal ambassadors. The 'signs of an apostle', which is better understood as the 'signs of a heavenly ambassador' (i.e. one having authority to speak for a higher), followed Jesus first as God sent Him and ratified His ministry through signs. People like Stephen and Philip operated in signs, but their particular signs were not to ratify an apostolic calling.

I once picked up a book by Bill Johnson called 'When Heaven Invadea Earth' or something close. The title and cover were already suspect, so I went straight to the back cover to see if I should waste time even skimming through it. Johnson wrote, "Everyone can walk in miracles..." I knew that was true, that God can do miracles through any Christian... but something was totally false about it. When I asked God what it was, He took me to 1Cor. 12:28-29 where we're told, basically, that some Christians are called to walk in miracles and some to do them... but not all. I then saw the qualifying word that destroyed Johnson's thesis before he even started: "walk". I checked out the table of contents before happily tossing the book. While all Christians have the capacity to do miracles (e.g. the 72 that Jesus sent out) and many will (e.g. Stephen and Philip), 'walking' in miracles is only for some Christians (e.g. the apostles or those with gifts of miracles). I say all this to make a distinction: miracles can be done by 'all who believe' (Christians), but miracles that are signs (of one's apostleship), as you know, will only 'follow' those who follow Jesus as 'sent ones, ambassadors, apostles': "Truly, the signs of an apostle were done among you with great patience, in all signs, wonders, and mighty deeds." Again, to 'believe' in that passage is to 'follow' Christ as He followed God-- something that all genuine apostles must do.
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#23
Then why did Paul instruct the church on how the gifts were to be used? Did he have a senior moment and the Holy Spirit had it recorded in the bible to show his affliction?
 

ForthAngel

Senior Member
Aug 31, 2012
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#24
[h=3]2 Thessalonians 2
The Man of Lawlessness[/h]
2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, [SUP]2 [/SUP]not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[SUP][a][/SUP] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. [SUP]4 [/SUP]He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

1 Corinthians 3

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst? [SUP]17 [/SUP]If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person; for God’s temple is sacred, and you together are that temple.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]Do not deceive yourselves. If any of you think you are wise by the standards of this age, you should become “fools” so that you may become wise. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness”[SUP][a][/SUP]; [SUP]20 [/SUP]and again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.”[SUP][b][/SUP] [SUP]21 [/SUP]So then, no more boasting about human leaders!
2 Thessalonians 2


[SUP]9 [/SUP]The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, [SUP]10 [/SUP]and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie [SUP]12 [/SUP]and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

[h=3]Matthew 7:21-23[/h]
[h=3]I Never Knew You[/h][SUP]21 [/SUP]“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [SUP]22 [/SUP]On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ [SUP]23 [/SUP]And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.

Funny how this modern movement has completely detached from mainline church doctrine that stood firm for over 1900 years... I also find it strange how Jesus calls those who think they are doing his work "lawless". I'd be scared if it was me.
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#25
Explain Smiths wiggle worth?
 

ForthAngel

Senior Member
Aug 31, 2012
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#26
modern doctrine. deviated from core Christianity. Gave birth to the circus we see today.
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#27
Mark 16
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Aint it funny that those who believe that salvation is through baptism disregard this verse.
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#28
but he that believeth not shall be damned.

No mention of baptism.
 

ForthAngel

Senior Member
Aug 31, 2012
2,171
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#29
Repeat in your heart often, "baptized with the Holy Ghost and fire, fire, fire!" All the unction, and weeping, and travailing comes through the baptism of fire, and I say to you and say to myself, purged and cleansed and filled, with renewed spiritual power.
- Smith Wigglesworth

Let's look at what baptism by fire means without ripping it completely out of it's context:

[SUP]7 [/SUP]But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? [SUP]8 [/SUP]Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. [SUP]10 [/SUP]The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]“I baptize you with[SUP][b][/SUP] water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with[SUP][c][/SUP] the Holy Spirit and fire.

Ok, Holy Spirit and fire. Which one do you want? Fire or Holy Spirit. If scripture interprets scripture, let's read the next verse to see what the fire baptism is:

[SUP]12 [/SUP]His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

I prefer not to call for God's wrath upon myself.... Yet in this modern signs and wonders movement, almost every song you hear is calling for God's fire from heaven. I wonder if Soddom and Gomorrah enjoyed their fire from heaven?
 

ForthAngel

Senior Member
Aug 31, 2012
2,171
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#30
Mark 16
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Aint it funny that those who believe that salvation is through baptism disregard this verse.
Those signs did follow those that believed. They ended with the death of the Apostles for only they are recorded as being able to pass them on. Lot of end-time warnings in the bible for modern signs and wonders chasers. Really wish you guys would pay attention to them.
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#31
Those signs did follow those that believed. They ended with the death of the Apostles for only they are recorded as being able to pass them on. Lot of end-time warnings in the bible for modern signs and wonders chasers. Really wish you guys would pay attention to them.
Then who healed my mother in law of brain cancer, ( the doctor said there is nothing we can do) she was given six months to live and that was 20 years ago?
 

ForthAngel

Senior Member
Aug 31, 2012
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#32
The chemo and radiation more than likely through God's providential will. Unless you can provide undeniable evidence that she was miraculously healed instantly, then I will chalk this up to another story. It's the only evidence we ever get. Unconfirmed story after unconfirmed story.
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#33
I was healed of asthma 15 years ago, I was set free from alcoholism 23 years ago. Are you going to say that Satan did that. My son was born with fluid on his lungs and the docs said if he makes it he will be debilitated. He just signed with a college on a full baseball scholarship. I don't know what God you serve. But, my God is all powerful and can do more than I can imagine.
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#34
So you say I am lying, why would I do that. I don't have her medical records in front of me but I can get them or maybe I can have her tell you herself.
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#35
The apostate church, having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof.
 

ForthAngel

Senior Member
Aug 31, 2012
2,171
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#36
I was healed of asthma 15 years ago, I was set free from alcoholism 23 years ago. Are you going to say that Satan did that. My son was born with fluid on his lungs and the docs said if he makes it he will be debilitated. He just signed with a college on a full baseball scholarship. I don't know what God you serve. But, my God is all powerful and can do more than I can imagine.
I don't deny God's answer to prayers. He takes providence over his entire creation. The difference in providential healing or miraculous healing is that one is instant and, well, miraculous. The other is God's will at work through non-miraculous means, through long prayer, and through faith.

Unless I can see a man who is completely blind see again isntantly, or a man undeniably dead rise and come back to life, or see a heard of pigs squeal in unison and run into an ocean after a demon is cast out of a man, or fire fall from heaven, or pillars of fire and smoke guiding a group of thousands through the wilderness, or the sky tearing open and heaven being revealed, then it's not a miracle.

Even the pharisees couldn't deny the miracles Jesus performed so they accused him of doing them by the power of satan.

What we see today is nothing more than a stage show and mass hypnotism provoked by hyper-emotional services and is easily debunked when pressed against the light of scripture. These "experiences" become a high that the seeker chases, much like a drug. Their obsession is with the "Holy Spirit" while their doctrine constantly undermines and tramples on the Gospel.

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God, not by false signs or miracles. Jesus said:

[h=3]Matthew 16:4[/h]English Standard Version (ESV)

[SUP]4 [/SUP]An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah.” So he left them and departed.

We have God's own diary in our hands. We have prophecy completed from beginning to end. Why do we need to chase signs to reinforce our faith? This is lawless behavior as defined by Jesus himself. Faith in action is not chasing signs and miracles:


[h=3]Hebrews 11:1[/h]11 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.


Those wrapped up in this extremely new movement have misplaced their faith and are chasing lies.
 

ForthAngel

Senior Member
Aug 31, 2012
2,171
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#37
The apostate church, having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof.
The reprobate church of 2 Thessalonians 2 are sign chasers. They deny the power of God by reducing his wonderful works we read about to a stage show put on by liars and charlatans. God's power supercedes any so-called miracle and that power lies His Word alone.

Not saying God can't do it
Not saying God won't do it
But until the doctrine of the men and women paving the way for this false movement is repented of and corrected, their fruit is plain as the sun in the sky and I'll have no part of it.
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#38
The reprobate church of 2 Thessalonians 2 are sign chasers. They deny the power of God by reducing his wonderful works we read about to a stage show put on by liars and charlatans. God's power supercedes any so-called miracle and that power lies His Word alone.

Not saying God can't do it
Not saying God won't do it
But until the doctrine of the men and women paving the way for this false movement is repented of and corrected, their fruit is plain as the sun in the sky and I'll have no part of it.
Guess what, I don't mean to be prude. But I have found the err of the church and that is they have no faith in the cross. It's all about self help and feel good stories, that does nothing for the people except it makes them feel good and they go home and still have the problem that they went with.

The power of God is the preaching of the gospel and that is Christ and Him crucified.

We used to sing a song before all this radio music has infiltrated the church. But it went like this. If everybody here would just place their faith in Him. Then He would open up heaven and pour out the Holy Ghost rain and you won't leave here like you came in Jesus name. Bound, oppressed, tormented ,sick or, lame, for the Holy Ghost of acts is still the same and you want leave here like you came in Jesus name.
 

ForthAngel

Senior Member
Aug 31, 2012
2,171
91
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#39
Guess what, I don't mean to be prude. But I have found the err of the church and that is they have no faith in the cross. It's all about self help and feel good stories, that does nothing for the people except it makes them feel good and they go home and still have the problem that they went with.

The power of God is the preaching of the gospel and that is Christ and Him crucified.

We used to sing a song before all this radio music has infiltrated the church. But it went like this. If everybody here would just place their faith in Him. Then He would open up heaven and pour out the Holy Ghost rain and you won't leave here like you came in Jesus name. Bound, oppressed, tormented ,sick or, lame, for the Holy Ghost of acts is still the same and you want leave here like you came in Jesus name.
I agree with everything you say here except for the song. Miracles, even in the bible were not commonplace. They were for specific times, for specific people, for God's specific purposes. Those purposes have been fulfilled.

How do you judge the merit of a false miracle as opposed to a real one? Can you tell the difference?

If I walked into your house today and started speaking in tongues (the babbling), how would you know if it was real or not? Acts 2 is our only account of what true tongues is and it is understood human languages. That is how we know the difference. Same with miracles. If those propagating these "miracles" have flawed doctrine (all that I have studied thus far DO, in fact many of them going as far as denying the deity of Christ and other heresies), then something is wrong there. Only one of us can be right.

Most of the warnings are for sign chasers or miracle workers. Which category do you fit in? I cannot place myself int he position of those who claim to be working miracles. Only those caught up in this modern movement can. They fit the warnings to a tee. If that doesn't scare you, I dunno what else would, and scare you it should.
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#40
If you walked into my house and started speaking in tongues I would immediate start speaking in tongues as well and maybe my wife or my 20 year old would interpret. Cause, you can ask my wife, when the Holy Ghost shows up I start jumping and praising God and tongues a flowing. I tend to get loud.