THESE SIGNS

[2Thewaters]

but miracles does not mean you are a disciple



2 Cor 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2 Cor 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles,
which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.



Rev 19:20 And the beast antichrist man was taken,
and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him,
with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast,
and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


the devil will come WORKING MIRACLES to decieve the whole world, and he will and he will tell them all to take the mark of the beast so they can buy and sell

those who take the mark of the beast
will be decieved
and will be thrown into the lake of fire.

MIRACLES are the MAIN METHOD that satan will use to DECIEVE the world and the kings so that they TAKE the mark of the beast.

bleeding pictures
weeping statutes and healings of the crippled and seeing of the blind

the devil will decdieve the whole world pretending he is christ

the fake christ will NOT HAVE SCARS IN HIS HANDS

Jesus has SCARS IN HIS HANDS

This same JEsus (with scars in his hands w) will come again...

 

[Kerry]

Deny it, call it Satan, I hope you don;t. God is all about miracles.

 

[Kerry]

You still have not explained Smiths wiggleworth

 

[ForthAngel]

You still have not explained Smiths wiggleworth

modern doctrine. deviated from core Christianity. Gave birth to the circus we see today.

Repeat in your heart often, "baptized with the Holy Ghost and fire, fire, fire!" All the unction, and weeping, and travailing comes through the baptism of fire, and I say to you and say to myself, purged and cleansed and filled, with renewed spiritual power.​

- Smith Wigglesworth

Let's look at what baptism by fire means without ripping it completely out of it's context:

​

[SUP]7 [/SUP]But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? [SUP]8 [/SUP]Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. [SUP]10 [/SUP]The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]“I baptize you with[SUP][b][/SUP] water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with[SUP][c][/SUP] the Holy Spirit and fire.

Ok, Holy Spirit and fire. Which one do you want? Fire or Holy Spirit. If scripture interprets scripture, let's read the next verse to see what the fire baptism is:

[SUP]12 [/SUP]His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

I prefer not to call for God's wrath upon myself.... Yet in this modern signs and wonders movement, almost every song you hear is calling for God's fire from heaven. I wonder if Soddom and Gomorrah enjoyed their fire from heaven?

This is one of hundreds of flaws in his teachings. After church tomorrow, I'll be more than happy to show you the flaws in his doctrine. Got hundreds of examples to choose from. For now, I gotta sleep.

 

[saved1975]

To the Greeks Koine was a language known and used by most travelers such as sailors or merchants. The Greeks used the word "tongue" to identify languages or minor dialects other than Greek. A tongue means a language always known by someone. Paul was an apostle and said that he spoke more of the tongues or languages than all of the rest. However, he said IN CHURCH tongues would have no value. A visitor speaking a Greek dialect would think in their own language. However, unless they or others could translated their message they are commanded to be silent. The assembly was for teaching the word or logos.

Mark 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

Peter "went fishing" and the others were not true believers until the day of Pentecost.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Jesus could have said that those who believe and are baptized shall be saved and they shall speak with new tongues. He has stated that the unbelievers are the eleven. The signs FOLLOWED along but do not appear ever to have been performed by new disciples (learners)

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mark 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Mark 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

As noted, the eleven went forth as Jesus had sent them into all the world and He confirmed the word or logos with supernatural signs. Signs and wonders were to certify the evangelists.

Mark 16:20 And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Jesus promised to guide the apostles into all truth and after Pentecost they were certainly "believers."

Acts 5:12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon’s porch.
Acts 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

Jesus appeared to and let Paul hear His voice to qualify him as an apostle: He promised to appear to Paul to guide him. Paul demonstrated these powers conferred by the direct appearance of Jesus.

If you limit the signs only to the Apostles, Then you have to limit salvation to the Apostles, Mk 16: 16.
V16, "HE THAT BELIEVETH". v17, "THEY THAT BELIEVE".
V15, "PREACH TO EVERY CREATURE".

The commission is for anyone who believes.

 

[saved1975]

And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

"they" refers to the apostles, even though "them" was added by translators to make the verse read smoother, it is understood the apostles are the 'they' and 'them' of this verse, the ones Jesus was addressing in this context.

The Greek text reads like this.
"The Lord working with, And confirming the word with signs following".

"Them" wasn't in the original Greek text. the translators put that in.

God has always works with His word and confirms it with signs following, whoever does the teaching of God's word.

 

[Jda016]

I once picked up a book by Bill Johnson called 'When Heaven Invadea Earth' or something close. The title and cover were already suspect, so I went straight to the back cover to see if I should waste time even skimming through it. Johnson wrote, "Everyone can walk in miracles..." I knew that was true, that God can do miracles through any Christian... but something was totally false about it. When I asked God what it was, He took me to 1Cor. 12:28-29 where we're told, basically, that some Christians are called to walk in miracles and some to do them... but not all. I then saw the qualifying word that destroyed Johnson's thesis before he even started: "walk". I checked out the table of contents before happily tossing the book. While all Christians have the capacity to do miracles (e.g. the 72 that Jesus sent out) and many will (e.g. Stephen and Philip), 'walking' in miracles is only for some Christians (e.g. the apostles or those with gifts of miracles). I say all this to make a distinction: miracles can be done by 'all who believe' (Christians), but miracles that are signs (of one's apostleship), as you know, will only 'follow' those who follow Jesus as 'sent ones, ambassadors, apostles': "Truly, the signs of an apostle were done among you with great patience, in all signs, wonders, and mighty deeds." Again, to 'believe' in that passage is to 'follow' Christ as He followed God-- something that all genuine apostles must do.

I went to a Bible study that was reading that same book several years ago! I tried to read it, but I felt he was very wrong in some of his assertions. I stopped reading it after that.

 

[Jda016]

I was healed of asthma 15 years ago, I was set free from alcoholism 23 years ago. Are you going to say that Satan did that. My son was born with fluid on his lungs and the docs said if he makes it he will be debilitated. He just signed with a college on a full baseball scholarship. I don't know what God you serve. But, my God is all powerful and can do more than I can imagine.

It truly is unfortunate to see so many Christians absolutely convinced that doesn't heal, cast out demons, or heal today. We will have Christians telling other Christians that they are casting out demons with the help of demons. Of course, That is no different than what Jesus experienced.

It is amazing how much doubt and unbelief that has a direct hold over the church. Especially when Christ says so plainly that these are the things that hinder healings, deliverance, and prayers being answered.

it is like having someone come and tell me the sky is not blue. They give me "Scriptural support," they give long exegesis, and show me charts and diagrams to tell me it is not so, yet all I have to do is look up to see that they are wrong.

Some people refuse to believe it unless they are shown it themselves. It is sad, but I can only pray that their eyes might be opened, but better would it be if they believed and haven't seen rather than have to see in order to believe.

God bless you Kerry and may He continually work in you the miracles, healings, and deliverances that Christ has given the power to every believer to walk in.

 

[Allin]

Then why did Paul instruct the church on how the gifts were to be used? Did he have a senior moment and the Holy Spirit had it recorded in the bible to show his affliction?

The Holy Spirit and Jesus are different, as I guess you know; but They also often operate differently. The gifts of the Holy Spirit and the workings of Jesus are different. The passage at the end of Mark says that when Jesus had told His apostles that "these signs will follow" them, then "they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs" (Mk. 16). I'll just make it short and simple:

1. The Holy Spirit gives gifts (1Cor. 12) which can operate in the life of Christians; these gifts are separated into parts: word of wisdom, faith, tongues, etc. The gifts sometimes operate only at certain times; other times, they seem to operate whenever the person who has the gift is ready to use them. When the Holy Spirit is the One operating 'gifts', He operates through the gifts. Not so with the Lord.

2. Jesus operates through Himself. When Jesus operates through a person, He operated directly, not through gifts.

E.g. if God gives you the gift of healing and you lay hands on someone and they are healed through your gift, the Holy Spirit is the One who was at work there. However, whether or not you have the gift of healing, if the Lord sends you to see someone and to heal them, the Lord may be the One functioning there. Here are some examples of the difference between the Holy Spirit operating through a person's gifts and the Lord operating directly through the person (and the difference is seen in what Jesus said: "These signs will follow those who believe" just as God the Father operated directly through Jesus):

The Holy SpiritYou don't see a great deal of this in the NT, because it is focused on the Lord and the teachings of the apostles through whom the Lord directly works.

The Lord1. In Acts 3, when a lame man begs Peter and John for money, Peter responds, "Silver and gold I do not have, but what I have I give you..." The Lord Jesus healed the man, not Peter. When the people come adoring, Peter says to them, "Men of Israel, why do you marvel at this? Or why look so intently at us, as though by our own power or godliness we had made this man walk?" And from there, He unfolds the Scriptures and the life of Christ to them.

2. In Acts 9, Peter meets Aeneas who has been bedridden for eight years. He says to him, "Aeneas, Jesus the Christ heals you. Arise and make your bed.” Jesus Christ Himself healed Aeneas, therefore, Aeneas was 'healed indeed' at that very moment (which is how we see God work through Jesus).

3. In Acts 9, shortly after Aeneas is healed, Christians call Peter to please raise to life Tabitha (Dorcas) who had died. They stood there weeping (they could not see hope), so Peter followed the Lord's custom (the twelve year old girl) in word and action; the story follows: "And all the widows stood by him weeping, showing the tunics and garments which Dorcas had made while she was with them. But Peter put them all out, and knelt down and prayed. And turning to the body he said, 'Tabitha, arise.' And she opened her eyes, and when she saw Peter she sat up."

I don't know if that's along the lines of what you asked about, but Paul encouraged the Church to use their Holy Spirit gifts; but the Lord Himself operated through Paul. The 'signs of an apostle' are really the 'signs that the Lord (Himself) is present'. (If people could distinguish these operations, it begins to be apparent why all five ministries, not just one or three, are needed "until the perfecting of the Saints"). If you read through especially the Book of Acts, you will see this and be able to distinguish it from the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Now, because They are One God, They can both perform the same miracles and such through people; but where the Holy Spirit performs through the gifts He puts in you, the Lord performs directly through you. Of his apostolic team, Paul said, "We are to God the Fragrance of Christ... and who is equal to the task" (2Cor. 2). The Holy Spirit teaches us and works through us, but the Lord personally teaches and works through some people (along with the Holy Spirit).

 

[Allin]

Repeat in your heart often, "baptized with the Holy Ghost and fire, fire, fire!" All the unction, and weeping, and travailing comes through the baptism of fire, and I say to you and say to myself, purged and cleansed and filled, with renewed spiritual power.​

- Smith Wigglesworth

Let's look at what baptism by fire means without ripping it completely out of it's context:

​

[SUP]7 [/SUP]But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? [SUP]8 [/SUP]Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. [SUP]10 [/SUP]The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]“I baptize you with[SUP][b][/SUP] water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with[SUP][c][/SUP] the Holy Spirit and fire.

Ok, Holy Spirit and fire. Which one do you want? Fire or Holy Spirit. If scripture interprets scripture, let's read the next verse to see what the fire baptism is:

[SUP]12 [/SUP]His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

I prefer not to call for God's wrath upon myself.... Yet in this modern signs and wonders movement, almost every song you hear is calling for God's fire from heaven. I wonder if Soddom and Gomorrah enjoyed their fire from heaven?

Lol. Well said. Many of us think we're smart and can outsmart God and slip by the Pearly Gates by just intending good but not living honestly. But God, of course, outsmarted us before smart even existed. This passage, along with what you say above, refers directly to much of what Christianity is today, especially the Charismatic stream (always calling for fire and revival) in my experience:

Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord!
For what good is the day of the Lord to you?
It will be darkness, and not light.

It will be as though a man fled from a lion,
And a bear met him!
Or as though he went into the house,
Leaned his hand on the wall,
And a serpent bit him!
Is not the day of the Lord darkness, and not light?
Is it not very dark, with no brightness in it?
“I hate, I despise your feast days,
And I do not savor your sacred assemblies.
Though you offer Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings,
I will not accept them,
Nor will I regard your fattened peace offerings.
Take away from Me the noise of your songs,
For I will not hear the melody of your stringed instruments.
But let justice run down like water,
And righteousness like a mighty stream." (Amos 5:18-24.)



Why would anyone so desire 'the Day of the Lord' when it's such bad news for many. Signs and wonders; "Everyone can walk in miracles"; "Go out and 'do the stuff'". I don't know if I've seen a greater mockery of God than among these "Give us revival, give us renewal, give us, give us, give us" kinds of camps.

 

[ForthAngel]

Lol. Well said. Many of us think we're smart and can outsmart God and slip by the Pearly Gates by just intending good but not living honestly. But God, of course, outsmarted us before smart even existed. This passage, along with what you say above, refers directly to much of what Christianity is today, especially the Charismatic stream (always calling for fire and revival) in my experience:

Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord!
For what good is the day of the Lord to you?
It will be darkness, and not light.

It will be as though a man fled from a lion,
And a bear met him!
Or as though he went into the house,
Leaned his hand on the wall,
And a serpent bit him!
Is not the day of the Lord darkness, and not light?
Is it not very dark, with no brightness in it?
“I hate, I despise your feast days,
And I do not savor your sacred assemblies.
Though you offer Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings,
I will not accept them,
Nor will I regard your fattened peace offerings.
Take away from Me the noise of your songs,
For I will not hear the melody of your stringed instruments.
But let justice run down like water,
And righteousness like a mighty stream." (Amos 5:18-24.)



Why would anyone so desire 'the Day of the Lord' when it's such bad news for many. Signs and wonders; "Everyone can walk in miracles"; "Go out and 'do the stuff'". I don't know if I've seen a greater mockery of God than among these "Give us revival, give us renewal, give us, give us, give us" kinds of camps.

What it boils down to is abominable worship which is repulsive to God. And great passage there.

[h=3]Leviticus 10[/h]New International Version (NIV)


[h=3]The Death of Nadab and Abihu[/h]10 Aaron’s sons Nadab and Abihu took their censers, put fire in them and added incense; and they offered unauthorized fire before the Lord, contrary to his command. [SUP]2 [/SUP]So fire came out from the presence of the Lord and consumed them, and they died before the Lord. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Moses then said to Aaron, “This is what the Lord spoke of when he said:

“‘Among those who approach me
I will be proved holy;
in the sight of all the people
I will be honored.’”


Aaron remained silent.

 

[Allin]

I went to a Bible study that was reading that same book several years ago! I tried to read it, but I felt he was very wrong in some of his assertions. I stopped reading it after that.

The Bible says that [ministers] are known by their fruits. 'Fruits' here can mean several things. One thing it can mean is the fruit or offspring of the ministry. I attended a church while I was in Kalamazoo, MI that was directly linked to Bethel Church in Redding, CA. Some of them gave truthful prophetic words to me; but the Jezebel spirit ran the church to the extent that all the leaders were women (pastor, worship team, etc.) and were usually at the front of the church, and all the men who did anything were in the back of the church operating the sound equipment. It was bad. The character of some of these people was poisonous. One guy who attended the church, for instance: I went to his house several times to help him with work. He had a dog and cat, and the atmosphere (because of his character and Jezebel at work through him) was so oppressive that even his dog and cat were suffering. His cat was constantly shedding, and his dog was a pathetic, thin sight; they both rarely had an appetite or even drank water. Then, just in case there was any question as to the entwining and agreement of this guy and the Jezebel spirit having a negative effect on him and others and his home and pets, he took a weekend off to go to a church camp with this poisoned church. For the three days that he was gone, his oppressive character (his spirit and the Jezebel spirit) left with him, and the Lord and His peace entered in their place. The effect on the animals? They immediately regained their appetite and couldn't stop eating and drinking their water; they came alive (I have another story of pets perfectly sensing the Lord's presence, so it's not new news that animals can sense spiritual climates and people's emotions and character). The dog wasn't such a bullhead when I took it on walks; everything changed. Then, in case some might say it was the weather or something, the guy returned on Monday. Because it was his home, the Lord had to leave as this poisonous soul and Jezebel came back to make his home and his pets miserable to death.

While it isn't true that following a good minister makes all his followers good, it is true that when a minister has crowds and crowds of people following him (not just a few) who display the same evil sins (not just regular sins but sins of the heart, the ugliest of all), then that is probably the fruit (children) of the minister or 'the evidence of the minister's real heart'. You better believe it! If ministers need to commend their ministries to the public (and there are few who don't do this) but have no or little good fruit (children), that is the summary of the thing. But Paul said to the Corinthians with all their imperfections, "Do we begin again to commend ourselves? Or do we need, as some others, epistles of commendation to you or letters of commendation from you? You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart" (2Cor. 3). Amen to that. We see ugly people spill out of a church or ministry week to week and year to year and then say, "The pastor of that church (or that minister) is such a godly man" because he wants us to believe so. But since when. In Western nations primarily, we are used to looking at the outward-- how a person looks, talks, acts, dresses; what a person has or doesn't have. It is a real concept to look at a person's character or heart instead; but if we did, we wouldn't need long lists of outward ways or traits by which to tell if a minister is or isn't of or from God. The quick way is the heart of the matter (which is why I read the back of Johnson's book to get to the heart of the thing rather than trying to read the book and see what he says on the surface); it is not staring at a person's outward qualifications and thinking that they live by what they preach just because they preach it.

 

[Allin]

What it boils down to is abominable worship which is repulsive to God. And great passage there.

I hate to say it, but you're right. God does not like it, and because He keeps quiet, 'nobody knows'. It's a real disaster in practically every sense of the term (except for those who enjoy the 'high' it gives them while they have it).

 

[SeaBass]

The Greek text reads like this.
"The Lord working with, And confirming the word with signs following".

"Them" wasn't in the original Greek text. the translators put that in.

God has always works with His word and confirms it with signs following, whoever does the teaching of God's word.

And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.


"They" is in the original Greek text and refers to the apostles.

"The Lord working with" is not a smooth translation from Greek to English. "Working with" who? Them > they > the apostles

Adding "them" does no harm to the text, it just makes it read more smooth. SO the Lord was speaking to His apostles and it was "they" (apostles) that Jesus worked with confirming the word with signs.

 

[Tickle]

The signs in the upper room were of wind or breath and fire. The Word of God is able to separate the good grain from the chaff. The spirit of burning and fire is a common expression. Isaiah speaks of a very tiny remnant remaining alive in Jerusalem. Most godly Jews had fled rather than be participate in what had become of the nation.

Is. 4:3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:
Is. 4:4 When the Lord shall have WASHED AWAY away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the FIRE of judgment, and by the SPIRIT of burning. Luke 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Luke 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Luke 3:9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Luke 3:15 And as the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not;
Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I [man] indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Luke 3:17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

The Spirit of Christ in the word has to power to reap when the time (kairos) is right. I know that people are calling for God's holy fire to fall on them but it makes me sweat.

 

[Jda016]

The Bible says that [ministers] are known by their fruits. 'Fruits' here can mean several things. One thing it can mean is the fruit or offspring of the ministry. I attended a church while I was in Kalamazoo, MI that was directly linked to Bethel Church in Redding, CA. Some of them gave truthful prophetic words to me; but the Jezebel spirit ran the church to the extent that all the leaders were women (pastor, worship team, etc.) and were usually at the front of the church, and all the men who did anything were in the back of the church operating the sound equipment. It was bad. The character of some of these people was poisonous. One guy who attended the church, for instance: I went to his house several times to help him with work. He had a dog and cat, and the atmosphere (because of his character and Jezebel at work through him) was so oppressive that even his dog and cat were suffering. His cat was constantly shedding, and his dog was a pathetic, thin sight; they both rarely had an appetite or even drank water. Then, just in case there was any question as to the entwining and agreement of this guy and the Jezebel spirit having a negative effect on him and others and his home and pets, he took a weekend off to go to a church camp with this poisoned church. For the three days that he was gone, his oppressive character (his spirit and the Jezebel spirit) left with him, and the Lord and His peace entered in their place. The effect on the animals? They immediately regained their appetite and couldn't stop eating and drinking their water; they came alive (I have another story of pets perfectly sensing the Lord's presence, so it's not new news that animals can sense spiritual climates and people's emotions and character). The dog wasn't such a bullhead when I took it on walks; everything changed. Then, in case some might say it was the weather or something, the guy returned on Monday. Because it was his home, the Lord had to leave as this poisonous soul and Jezebel came back to make his home and his pets miserable to death.

While it isn't true that following a good minister makes all his followers good, it is true that when a minister has crowds and crowds of people following him (not just a few) who display the same evil sins (not just regular sins but sins of the heart, the ugliest of all), then that is probably the fruit (children) of the minister or 'the evidence of the minister's real heart'. You better believe it! If ministers need to commend their ministries to the public (and there are few who don't do this) but have no or little good fruit (children), that is the summary of the thing. But Paul said to the Corinthians with all their imperfections, "Do we begin again to commend ourselves? Or do we need, as some others, epistles of commendation to you or letters of commendation from you? You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart" (2Cor. 3). Amen to that. We see ugly people spill out of a church or ministry week to week and year to year and then say, "The pastor of that church (or that minister) is such a godly man" because he wants us to believe so. But since when. In Western nations primarily, we are used to looking at the outward-- how a person looks, talks, acts, dresses; what a person has or doesn't have. It is a real concept to look at a person's character or heart instead; but if we did, we wouldn't need long lists of outward ways or traits by which to tell if a minister is or isn't of or from God. The quick way is the heart of the matter (which is why I read the back of Johnson's book to get to the heart of the thing rather than trying to read the book and see what he says on the surface); it is not staring at a person's outward qualifications and thinking that they live by what they preach just because they preach it.

I totally agree with what you are saying. I have encountered the Jezebel spirit in both my sister-in-laws. It is xt revelry destructive.

Unfortunately, many of the extreme charismatic groups have been infiltrated by it, like Johnson, Mike Bickel, Rick Joyner, Todd Bentley, Patricia King, etc. A lot of New Age accompanies it.

 

[Allin]

The signs in the upper room were of wind or breath and fire. The Word of God is able to separate the good grain from the chaff. The spirit of burning and fire is a common expression. Isaiah speaks of a very tiny remnant remaining alive in Jerusalem. Most godly Jews had fled rather than be participate in what had become of the nation.

Is. 4:3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:
Is. 4:4 When the Lord shall have WASHED AWAY away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the FIRE of judgment, and by the SPIRIT of burning. Luke 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Luke 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Luke 3:9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Luke 3:15 And as the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not;
Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I [man] indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Luke 3:17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

The Spirit of Christ in the word has to power to reap when the time (kairos) is right. I know that people are calling for God's holy fire to fall on them but it makes me sweat.

Amen. Here's what God told Malachi about Jesus refining His Church:

“Behold, I send My messenger, and he will prepare the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple, even the Messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight. Behold, He is coming,' says the Lord of hosts. 'But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire And like launderers’ soap'" (Mal. 3:1-2).

Who can endure the day of His coming? Who can dwell in the midst of "everlasting burning" as Isaiah asked (Isa. 30). I don't enjoy being in anything that's burning. Malachi finished:

"He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver; He will purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer to the Lord an offering in righteousness" (v. 3).

He refines people so that what they offer to Him is not the lame and blind of their sheep, the things that have no or little value to them (e.g. a few hours on Sunday), but is WORTHY of Him: He refines them "that they may offer to the Lord an offering in righteousness." Amen. People like John the Baptist said it plainly: "Being Christian won't save you, because God can make Christians anytime. But if you produce fruits that bear witness of your salvation, then you are truly safe." But when the Lord comes, He talks less about that aspect and focuses more on 'the positive', leaving those without good fruit to think He overlooks and therefore allows (approves) their sin and compromise. Some people ignorantly call for God's fire because everyone around them is doing it; when it gets above sixty degrees in their lives, they cling to a Starbucks cup in one hand and an iPhone in the other (symbols of vanity and a self-centered lifestyle), rebuke satan, and fight anyone who reminds them that the way of the Cross is meant to separate them from a self-centered worldview. I saw fire once and went into WWE mode, wrestling with God not to drag me in so deep, afraid I may never surface. It's not fun nor something you call for or look forward to.

 

[Allin]

I totally agree with what you are saying. I have encountered the Jezebel spirit in both my sister-in-laws. It is xt revelry destructive.

Unfortunately, many of the extreme charismatic groups have been infiltrated by it, like Johnson, Mike Bickel, Rick Joyner, Todd Bentley, Patricia King, etc. A lot of New Age accompanies it.

Yep. Unless prepared by God's revelation or good teaching and kicking some particular masculine weaknesses (first one being the temptation to chuck responsibility and having your priorities out of order; second one being sexual weakness (often directly tied to the first one)), it's best to stay away from the Jezebel spirit and give it ZERO inroads into your life and family. It's a cancer, like a powerful acid, that can make little of much and totally erode, eat away, and destroy lives in a short period of time.

Not only the apparent charismatic groups are under the operations of Jezebel; anywhere that a man leads and does not adhere closely to God's guidelines for his life and ministry, Jezebel will be there, either in the minister or/and in other ministers or/and 'laypeople' who have a strong desire to lead, minister, control some aspect of the church, start cell or prayer groups, seduce the minister or/and get his wife out the way somehow (be surprised how many stories have come to light about ministers' wives getting sick or dying because of some woman in Jezebel speaking evil words, curses, or prophecies against them), and manipulate things in the church. It's up to the minister to acknowledge that satan does prowl constantly, looking for open avenues to enter and destroy lives; it's up to him to also know that satan has different players in the plan (strife, gossip, division, etc.), that he has some real 'strongmen' or 'major players' (the Pharisee spirit, the Jezebel spirit, the occult, etc.), and that he has tried and true tools to prevent the true move of the Holy Spirit (lust, division and prejudice (social class cliques, racism, etc.), self-centeredness, etc.). All Christians beginning any venture or ministry of their own (anything meant to glorify God and reach people) need to know that the enemy won't play nice and that all the claims that satan can't touch or harm or influence a Christian are false. Most infiltration happens because people aren't looking for it (aren't aware that it WILL happen unless you know to watch (and let the Spirit who knows everything and everyone be the One to lead things: who is hired, who joins the ministry team, who is who) as the Bible tells us to do). As for some people like Bentley and Joyner and those you named, suffice to say that some ministers are members of secret (luciferian) societies and some operate, some knowingly and some unknowingly, in demonic signs and healings.

 

[presidente]

The issue I raise is this: to whom does the plural pronouns "they" and "them" in verses 17-20 refer?

--Grammatically I do not see the plural pronouns 'they' and 'them" refer to a singular 'he' of verse 16

--the nearest plural antecedent of 'they' and 'them' is "the eleven" of verse 14

--verse 20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. Verse 20 makes it clear to me that the pronouns 'they' and 'them" are referring to the apostles.

--I conclude that the evidence shows those signs was promised to the apostles and not promised to anyone today.

That smells like Bad Sophistry to me. Take a look at these verses.

15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;(NIV)

Those who believe are the ones who believe the gospel the apostles preach. Look at verses 15-16. Why would the passage be about the apostles believing their own preaching?

That makes no sense.

 

[presidente]

I totally agree with what you are saying. I have encountered the Jezebel spirit in both my sister-in-laws. It is xt revelry destructive.

Unfortunately, many of the extreme charismatic groups have been infiltrated by it, like Johnson, Mike Bickel, Rick Joyner, Todd Bentley, Patricia King, etc. A lot of New Age accompanies it.

Why would so many people believe in the Jezebel spirit if it weren't for these people and their friends? (Isn't Frangipagne friends or at least some kind of college of Joyner?) It isn't mentioned in the Bible.